My parents' finances. Any advice?

TIna, welcome!

Just for starters, STOP spending YOUR funds on your parents. That path leads to madness and poverty. For you.

Your parents have financial resources, yes? SS, pension, savings?

Taking over your parents' finances isn't going to worsen their dementia. Dementia progresses no matter what you do.

Start out by finding a certified Elder Law attorney in their area. They need to assign you as Durable Power of Attorney so that you can manage their finances. They need to get qualified for Community MediCAID and get things set up so that when one of them needs facility care, their assets can be split so that the spouse c remaining at home isn't impoverished,

You need to have a hard conversation with your parents and tell them that you will discontinue helping them if they don't cooperate.

It's fine to step away from a mess like this and allow the state to step in and take over.

Without a POA willingly given by your competent Dad there is no way you can take over his finances.

If you discuss this and he gives you POA then you can do the finances, giving him his own account to manage on his own at will as long as he is able. It will be overseen by you.

The real issue here is are YOU able and willing to do POA or guardianship. Do YOU fully understand that when you undertake this, you are responsible for every penny in and every penny out of the accounts, and you are responsible for meticulous records as his fiduciary under the law.

If your father is currently incompetent then you will have to get emergency guardianship with the help of APS or an attorney.

None of this is easy but it is for his protection.

My suggestion would be to consult an elder law attorney for your options.

I am so sorry you are facing this, and hope you will update us as to what works as it will be solid good info for future posters here. I surely wish you the best.

They aren’t safe in their home if the stairlifts are broken. This is just as much of a concern as their finances.

You live 45 minutes away. You are neglecting your own needs by devoting so much time and energy to care for them. This too is equally as important as their financial situation.

Your profile tells me that this can’t go on forever. Your parents need to be cared for by a staff around the clock. You aren’t able to do this and you probably aren’t interested in doing so.

Speak with your parents doctor, a social worker, Council on Aging, in other words, anyone who can point you in the direction of finding out how your parents can be placed in a facility.

Then go and visit them as their loving daughter instead of an overly anxious caregiver who is afraid of them falling and injuring themselves. I understand your fear. Falls are upsetting for everyone.

You will have peace of mind when they are placed in a facility and they will adjust to it.

Best wishes to you and your parents.

I am sorry :(

This is what I did: I put my name on my Daddys account, of course with his permission he had to sign forms at the bank. Then I was able to pay his bills online and stop the paper bills coming to the house. When we would go to the bank and he wanted a receipt of his account I would tell the cashier... checking account only please. My Daddy would see what he had in the account and ask "where is my money" and I would casually say "you paid your bills and the checks went through" he would reply "okay" never had a problem with a late bill again. Also, with him being the first name on the account it was still considered HIS account but it gave me access so I could keep track of what was going in and out. I would also complete his check book so he could see what checks had cleared and he could see account. Just start taking one step at a time and that way he doesn't lose everything all at once. I also started going to the doctor with my Daddy and I was just there for everything. Prayers for you and yours

You mentioned parents, so how is your Mom with finances?
I am of strong belief women are as good, keeping independence is important.
I am not sure if 70 overdraft qualifies as some financial disaster, I know people making six figures with big overdrafts, if just once let it go.
Maybe help with simple budget or list for grocery shopping.

The answers are difficult and can take time but are important going forward.

I have 3 recent personal examples. Both of my parents have died within the last year and now my husband currently has worsening dementia.

My father willingly, following recurrent bladder cancer, blindness from glaucoma and a stroke agreed to sign over his POA to my sisters and I. He wasn’t happy but we and his attorney assured him that nothing would be done without his involvement but it was necessary to have a seamless transition when he died.

My mother had dementia for many years however my father had not changed anything removing her from control and decision making in the event of him dying first. We needed to have 2 letters from different physicians and a letter by the attorney designating my sisters and I POA.

My husband is now unable to manage any of our finances. I initially wanted to have him removed from our accounts but was told by the bank the only way to accomplish this was to close and then open new ones. I left one checking account in both of our names with limited funds. He has a debit card if he wants to pay for something himself. The other accounts I added my daughter to do that she always has the ability to manage them if needed. Now, as things have worsened with his dementia I will need POA. It will be my next step.

I wish you the best in navigating this difficult time.

As others have said, STOP sending your own funds -- you are not responsible for your parent's or father's spending!

The POA document is key as is getting your name on his accounts so you can take over when/if needed. Make sure it is NOT a "springing" POA which requires some determination of lack of competence to trigger the POA. You need a type (drafted based on your state law, an elder care attorney can do this for you) that gives you immediate rights to step in an handle financial and medical decision-making. Ditto for getting an Advanced Directive executed.

Maybe try -- w/o negative/blaming tone or words -- to used the overdraft as an opportunity to suggest you could help so this doesn't happen again (NOT BY PAYING the overdraft) but to set up online banking and bill paying once your name is on his accounts. Move to paperless delivery of it all, just print out and give him the monthly statements and ask him to review it (gives him something to do w/o out taking it all away). OR (as I did w/my mom at the beginning) when the online statement arrived, we'd discuss it and if it was a credit card, she decided how much to pay, and I would pay that amount she decided on online. Overtime, I just took it all over as the dementia progressed.

For overspending, perhaps try a debit card with a set limit, the banks will do this (did this for our teenager back in the day too). That way they have a "credit card type" thing and can spend but NOT overspend. I just told my mom, it was a "new credit card" rather than trying to explain it all. Pick a simple pin number (their bday) that they may remember. We eliminated all credit cards, as she was getting totally confused about what she was spending as well as getting scammed by bad actors who called saying, "you won a thousand dollars, we need your credit card to charge the $25 fed ex bill to send you the check." She fell for it every time, thousands went missing this way. At least w/a debit card you can set an overall limit AND you can set it to ping you for authorization if over a large amount still within the overall limit or to deny a "charge" if you know it is a repeat order.

And see if he might move to an "order online grocery" option too, most stores have this now and you can review it before placing the order. They do the shopping and he can swing by to pick it up or for a small fee most stores will deliver now or there are shopping services like Instacart that will deliver it for a fee. Amazon fresh is another option.

All to say, see what you can do to move it all to online banking, billing and shopping to "make it easier for them" but for you to check and perhaps step in more over time. Last thing, set up an email address (all online things require this) but an email you control and see so you get all the incoming notices. Sure, you can print or forward to him (if he has an email already) those things you feel he should see.

W/my mom, in time I had to take it all over including filing her taxes the last 3 years. And had to handle the Medicaid spend down, so another reason to get access to the accounts as if this is needed at some point for long term nursing home care (our situation) your State Medicaid program will want financial records going back 5 years, so start getting access to all this now if at some point it might be needed.

Good luck with this!

My mother has dementia and still pays the bills. I have POA and monitor the activity online. It’s the only mentally stimulating thing that she does and I don’t want to take it away yet, but I know I will one day. Someone recommended getting checks which you can easily order online with a fictitious account number. You can tell him the bank had to close the original account because of fraud and they gave him these new checks. You login online and set all of the bills to be automatically paid from the real account but You can let him continue to pay the bills with his “checks”. Take his stamps, so he can’t mail them, but tell him when you stop over to visit you will gather the envelopes and mail them for him.

I endorse having your name added to your father's checking account. If he pays bills my mail, you could also change his billing address to your own so you could pay those bills yourself. Many bills can be paid automatically or be direct withdrawal if your father is comfortable doing that.

At some point it will be inevitable that you take control of the finances. If they are willing to let you even better to do it now because as dementia progresses sometimes they get more difficult and suspicious of people and may think you are trying to “steal their money”. I have to do it all behind my dad’s back because he is impossible to deal with, even when he was not dealing with dementia. He’s never willingly going to give up control of anything. When I found out he had lots of late bills and was just throwing some of them away when they came because he didn’t understand what they were I took over. I do have POA that he set up years ago so I used it when I needed to. I was on most of the accounts and took him down to the bank to get on the one I wasn’t on by waiting for a day where he was in a good mood, taking him to lunch and then telling him we were going to swing by the bank because they called to say someone needs to be on the account with him “in case something happens to you”. I put many bills on auto pay with paperless statements going to my email because “out of sight out of mind”. He pays a few bills himself but I have a spread sheet on my computer with all his bills and when they are due so I can monitor them.

It’s a lot to get set up but once it’s in place it gets easier.

are you power of attorney, if not see a elder lawyer.

Taking away responsibilities will not cause dementia to be worse. Dementia is a progressive disease and will get worse no matter what you do.

Your Dad may not like losing his responsibilities, and that may be demonstrated through his behavior. However since the disease is progressive it’s only a matter of time before that happens anyway.

Start with baby steps…tell him you’ll help balance the checkbook. Tell him you’ll make the grocery list…tell him you’ll go shopping with him. Eventually either you, another family member or hired help will have to take over all care.

My mom did the same with writing checks wrong and Dad after settling mistakes he made I slowly very slowly started to check bank accounts and credit cards without dad knowing

As long as your on the account for the bank you should be able to write checks and go to the bank

Eventually after time I now take care of all

my Mr. handled everything and I saw this happening too. What I did was I offered to help and slowly we started the transition. I just kept offering to help and I always let him have the last word and if I saw something amiss I would bring it up like I was confused and I needed him to Help me figure it out. Of course I would always be gentle and not make him look like an idiot. We’d laugh or “gee that’s unfortunate” or “oops!” Etc. and then talk about ways to avoid it in the future. Slowly he let me have more responsibility until I was handling all of it.

my Mr. & Mrs. we’re actually my boyfriends parents. I started as their housekeeper and eventually wound up moving in with them and being a house manager with a staff of five caring for them both. Both with dementia, she also had Lewy Parkinson’s and he with a heart problem and extremely bad arthritis and a weight problem. She was the cranky one and he was a sweetheart. I loved them both very much. It wound up breaking their son and I up, as they took so much time to care for. But, that was actually good thing because he wasn’t very good at being faithful. For me, I got to experience an awful lot of love and growing as a person.

My advice is to take it over now if you are seeing issues. Hopefully they already have you as POA financially and medically. If not, getting that paperwork in order with an elder lawyer is the first step. My mom already had me on her bank account years before and that has helped immensely. Otherwise every time you bank, you have to have the POA paperwork with you. The bank always says they will keep it on file and they can never find it. When I jumped in and took over moms finances, I found that she had been donating money to a food bank weekly but not making her house payment. So you might be surprised what you find when you do take it over. It can be shocking.

Just voice to your dad that banking has become so complicated with computers and on line transactions and everyone wanting to go paperless and you don't want him and your mom to be stressed. You want them to enjoy life and not worry. Tell him that it would be very easy for you to take care of their bills on line when you do your own. Explain that you can show him at any time what you have done and where things stand. He might be grateful that you are offering and hand it over easily. My mom was so relieved when I told her I would handle everything.

I've seen some warnings from other posters about putting your name on their accounts. There are no issues provided you don't mix your finances. Their accounts are only for their money. That eliminates the issue. I also use a carbon copy checkbook for my mom and it makes it really easy to keep track of what is spent where and when.

If you want to keep your dads mind active, let him work some crossword puzzles or start a craft, don't let him jumble his finances that could do damage to their credit or worse, lose some of their money. You can make a grocery order sheet and take inventory of their pantry with him. Have him check the boxes of items needed and then you can place the order on line and have it delivered if there are issues with him driving. Just some suggestions to keep him involved but not in total control.

Good luck and take care.

Welcome to the forum. Sorry you have to go through this but know that you are on a ship fully loaded with experienced and sympathetic friends. If you are willing to take on the responsibilities, you should get your Parents to give you durable PoA (goes into effect immediately), Medical Proxy: make sure their wills are updated and current. Remember that they can appoint a contingency on both documents in case you are unable to act for them. I would search for a certified elder care attorney (make sure they are really certified) who can guide you through this, although you can do this without an attorney; I would definitely run the business of putting your name on the parents checking account pass the attorney. I did this with my Mom but later was told that if anything had happened to me and I needed to apply for Medicaid first they would have considered the funds in her checking account, which were all hers (pension and social security) half mine! Well, that would have certainly messed up my poor Mom's situation. Now this was NJ and it was over 10 years ago but I would still tread cautiously. Your county or Office on Aging may have a bar association where you can get 15 minutes worth of legal counseling for free.

And you need to stop spending your funds on your parents. This will mess up your own retirement scenario and will certainly cloud theirs should they ever need to apply for Medicaid!

As to the hoarding............... well... you have my sympathy (I'm a bit of a hoard myself.... just found something I purchased 10 years ago.......... luckily I can use it now). The generation of the Great Depression lived through what happened when you lost it all. Many of their children, the members of the Silent Generation, are finding in our old age that we inherited more from our parents then we thought and find it difficult to "throw" stuff away also. If your parents won't use the shredder, you can always grab a pile of papers on your visit and shred them at your home. Go through them first and make sure it's really worthless trash before shredding; hate to tell you some of the important stuff I came across when searching through Mom's folders. If in doubt, you can always scan Dad's stuff into a special folder. If you put it on an accessible site (like Drive or Dropbox) you can pull it up at anytime.

Wishing you luck and peace on this journey. Please keep us updated.

Wonderful answers follow. I would also see if you can put his bills on automatic pay right now. I don’t know if you live near him and can go over and help him do this.

There is 'no falling into dementia.' The brain changes which results in some kind of dementia. I believe what you mean is 'depression.'

- He will feel that he is losing his independence and resist. He will resist. For your dad's financial safety (net) and to provide the care he needs, you need to intervene. Tell him that you need to work with him.

- It is a matter of how you speak to him - "I'm working with you. ... you are still in charge."

- Get an MD diagnosis. If he has dementia and/or is deemed incompetent to manage his own financial affairs, you need to become his POA - so you can take control of his accounts as needed.

You can do 'gently,' although you must set boundaries and do what he needs for his welfare.

How do you do this?

* You give him a job ... even if it isn't necessary, i.e.,
- Create a form "List of Expenditures" or something
and ask him to fill it out...

- Find receipts and ask him to list them ... then add them up.

- You enlist his help and tell him that what he is doing is important to get ready for the tax accountant or tax preparer. If he did his own taxes, don't say this. Just tell him it is an important part of being organized.

- [If he spends / buys things he doesn't need...] If you can, put a limit on his cr cards and checking account 'per day' or 'per week,' ... find out what you can do by calling his bank (again, you will need MD letter to gain authorization to do this).

THIS IS HARD and YOU are sensitive to your dad. Sensitivity, compassion go hand in hand with taking control and doing what is required in a situation. Expect he will object - this is new for him and he will resist.

- When he resists or raises his voice ... say "I understand you feel xxx (reflect back his words to you.). Depending on his (cognitive) abilities, tell him that he is in charge and that you are only helping ... or say I KNOW THAT YOU want to be sure all your bills are paid on time and that your finances are in order - you are financially very responsible and always have been. We both want to know that your finances are in order. You are very responsible to do this - (so we work together on it... okay?)

You'll know how to talk to him. If you get overwhelmed / emotional when discussing / helping him, take a break and go to the kitchen for a glass of water ... to give yourself a moment to collect yourself. You don't want to get into long explanations ... keep it simple as possible. Do consider creating these list forms that he needs to fill out ... to keep him busy.

In terms of the hoarding, see if you can get someone to take him out for lunch or a walk or somewhere - and you do what you have to do for a couple of hours.
He will not change his hoarding behavior. He can't. Just don't empty or discard things in his presence. Be sure to take large bags and boxes with you. You may be able to sell his 'doubles' or certainly donate to a women's shelter or another non-profit. Make this easy on yourself.

Also, the hoarding will stop if you can access his credit cards or take them away / cancel them. This is hard, I know.

Gena / Touch Matters

Contact an Elder Law Attorney to gather information about this process and which legal matters that will protect you and your Dad. Yes, you need to take control and start looking for Assisted Living Facilities that have Activities Directors. Use Dad's money to pay his bills, not yours.

https://www.alz.org/help-support/caregiving/financial-legal-planning/planning-ahead-for-legal-matters.

I have had to take over my parents bills and banking. I was worried of problems from them or siblings. I keep a binder with all the bills written out and the account ledger. When bills come in I put them in the binder plus write down the amount. This way he can still see what is going on, but my dad knows he is not to mess with them.
when we pay bills, I do it with him. I Ask what he wants to pay, sometimes i write out the check and he signs and puts in envelope. I balance account but make sure he can see.
I will keep the checkbook hidden, if that is needed.
I don’t want to take everything away from my father but he mishandled their finances so bad that all their savings eliminated by bank to cover the bounced checks.
so far this is working. We will see how long it works!
you may also want to take parents to bank and have them authorize to get your name on the account. I did not put my name on the front of checks, but I am authorized to sign the checks if needed.

I remember this stage. I simply started taking pictures of my mom's passwords (she had them.written down) and then going in and checking balances, checks, bill payments etc. (Yes, I have a good relationship.with her). When she noticed and asked what I was doing, I said it was good for more than one person to have passwords. She didnt object. I didnt tell her I was checking, I could go behind and check things. Then as the months went on, she kept buying multiple items of the same things on Amazon that she didnt need and I would have to keep sending them back. At some point, I asked her if she'd like help with paying bills and she didnt object because it was too much for her. At that point, I started talking about POA etc and we got that done. It's delicaze, but I tried to do it as a friend and she was grateful.

TinaMarie27: Retain an elder law attorney.

While he is able, ask if he’d like you to help take care of his bills so he doesn’t need to worry about that any more. Maybe Sit with him now to set up regular bill pay and engage him in the process as he is interested / able.
if you have siblings, let them know about your concerns and willingness to address.
Then call a respectable elder care lawyer and get POA agreement in place.
have the attorney also set up a trust for his home or other assets. Ask about Medicaid spend down requirements in your state
You’re a good daughter for thinking about him and offer to take care.
I did this recently and continue to keep mom and my brother apprised for transparency even tho POA doesn’t require it.
also - this won’t eliminate the hoarding but could help.
good luck

You also mentioned them buying groceries they don't need. This likely is due to him forgetting they have any, but please also look at their teeth (if they still have teeth, and not dentures). My dad kept buying the same soft food items over and over (mac and cheeze, jello, cooked chicken, ice cream), and much later (when he was in a care home) we had a dentist come in and clean his teeth and found out that his teeth were in a beyond horrible state (what few he had left), so he was buying soft foods that he could eat.

Even if they won't go to the dentist, maybe you can find a mobile dentist that can come to them. I wish I would have thought to do that much sooner.