If an appeal over penalties changes nothing, will NH throw my Dad out or where would he go?

They didn't require anything at the county because her death certificate was issued in the same county. I was surprised too. My dad didn't know there were cameras in the house by the time I installed them because I could tell my dad anything and he would believe it. You could hold whole conversations about him RIGHT in front of him in a vague enough way - he would have no clue. Or not be able to follow the conversation at least for a year before he went in. When I say he hobbled down the street I meant - his knees were really bad (osteo just before he went in NH couldn't believe he was still walking because of no cartilage cushioning). He could walk but it wasn't easy for him - when we were out and about we did things that really didn't require too much walking. And when we did, it was very slow. It was hard for me to follow but you said something about being in similar situation with hub's aunt/uncle about telling them something? If you have information about their loved ones habits and things they are starting to exhibit in decline - you should definitely tell them. They can hide some of this stuff for a while - like maybe when they shouldn't be driving - before they completely lose their faculties. Sometimes the ones closest to them either don't know it or do on some level but there's some denial going on because it's so hard to accept. I was like that on some things. As for the psycho lady getting in his house - the backdoor of the garage could be pushed in and when I left the last time I forgot to lock the door from the garage into the kitchen. Just appalled that she would still go in his house whether he was there or not. she was a nutjob.

you didn't even have to swear anything about your mom having passed away? maybe because you weren't going through probate, since he hasn't passed yet - not that we actually went through it but we did have to formally dispense with it but would have thought you would have had to do something official, at least I know I did with some other stuff as well and we have another similar issue and know have a friend who's just been having a hard time with another issue like that so that's great if you didn't

and, duh, forgot about the technology again; that was great - I was at my dad's neighbors while I was up there staying with him when he'd had an incident - I felt so bad for them - dad's niece's widower and his new wife had moved just down the street from them and they really thought they were going to look after them but between him looking after his two childless uncles with him being the only child of his parents - who were gone by then but still he was the only one - and his new wife somewhat barely tolerating that; she'd moved in to be with him from out of state - he didn't do what they thought but one day she did come down to this neighbor's to tell them that this little restaurant up the road had called them to tell them dad was there and didn't know where he was; now why she came and told them nobody could quite figure out, what good that did we don't know unless maybe she thought they knew how to contact me, like didn't she? or maybe she didn't, pretty sure her husband did, was he not around, did she want to involve him? anyway not sure if she thought they weren't going to let him go but he wound up coming on in and I was never told at the time. I do have a question considering the situation I'm somewhat in with hub's aunt and uncle; I've been somewhat told the same thing by their children, so when she calls me what should I do? and she does call me; I'm not calling her now. Anyway at that time dad did have good neighbors who did look out for him; at least I'm thinking they were still there at that time although the main one did move, which I really hated and really concerned me then as to how things were going to go then but he was the one who then also got the other neighbor who was also really looking out after him to go with him when his life alert went off in the middle of the night and contacted him as first contact; just glad he was home from just getting in from vacation, just wish he'd told us he was going and wouldn't have been around had it happened earlier but he'd probably forgotten all about even being on it but it was a false alarm; he was in bed sound asleep. But I can imagine your concern; not sure exactly what happened with friend of mine, but somebody else actually found him; think maybe she called somebody when she either didn't hear from him or he didn't answer when she called, but don't think it was like she just got home and found him herself, like you, oh just can't imagine, but know I was concerned about that with dad too after mom was gone; that happened with my uncle with a cousin he was looking out for. Hobbling down the street - that sounds so horrible - but why was he hobbling; does that say he did have some physical issues - I visualize these people getting my mom out of the car, where she'd stayed because of her hip issues, when they saw my dad fall, outside of the store where he'd gone in with me to help get her eye meds but then had gone back out to check on her without letting me know - stupid me had stuck my nose in a book instead of keeping eyes all out for him, never occurred to me he'd go back out to check on her, was he concerned she'd get out? never know but not a store he used to so the doors different so he tried to go in through the plate glass window, turned around, fell over he trash can, bloodied his face all up so I look up and here they both come hobbling in - I felt so bad but I was also scared they'd do something to me for letting it happen. They did do better in a lot of ways when they got back in their familiar territory; that is, he did until she was gone but then he eventually had grandson move in with him, which was okay for a while until he got worse, bad enough to go to the hospital then get sent home with home health with him then telling them he was in charge, which I guess gets into a whole other situation with him being there and me not with who's actually in charge of his care and who's going to do what because technically I was still his daughter and was in charge; he was supposed to just be staying there and looking after him. But before this we began to have issues with his vehicle as well, like not only light issues but real issues with it dying in traffic; oh what would have happened with dad then? so when it happened with me, with, like I said, he'd have me drive when I was there, I did take it straight to a garage where they were going to charge him a bunch of money; I wish dad would have bought him one more car; he kept that one way longer than he'd ever kept one but he kept thinking by that point he wouldn't outlast it so didn't want to spend the money at that point on getting another one but hadn't wanted to spend it on that one either but it was to the point it was going to have to be one or the other so this was still cheaper. Why was she hiding behind a tree in subzero weather? but that sounds like the night they tried to send dad home from the hospital; was thinking it was that cold the night he was found outside but hub, who keeps up with these things better than I do, said, no, it wasn't that cold then but it was that night and I told them they were not going to send a 95 yr. old dying man home in the middle of the night in subzero weather; thankfully a nurse and his doc, who'd already basically been forced to discharge him to hospice, agreed with me and readmitted him. So is that when they both realized you had cameras around? is that what led to him being admitted to the nh? if things hadn't gone the way they did with dad, we probably were going to have to do that as well - I just don't know how it all would have worked and glad I didn't have to find out, with being out of state - I still wonder if, in some ways, you're at least glad you can be there now. How did she get back in after your dad was gone?
so trying to remember; you got the new vehicle for your dad after you got that one fixed, right? that's good that your dad's bank worked with you so well; mine's did with me as well in case the grandson started taking anything out, which there did get to be a few questionable things but he did ask me about them first, though little concerned the bank didn't say anything but they were somewhat small so might have been why. At one time with a previous girlfriend was told - she was pretty computer savvy - that she'd drawn up a new will but apparently too soon or she overstepped herself where signatures were concerned and wasn't able to quite make it fly but I was concerned it would get produced when it was all over, especially after finding out that the attorney he used for the one he'd had done had left town and also somewhat concerned POA wise as well because we didn't use an attorney to get his - think you told me you did though, right? did find out after he was gone grandson did try to get him to change the house deed over to him, though, and he adamantly told him he wasn't doing that, that he was leaving the house for me, so an issue now. And so the will as well because he'd actually had it changed from leaving some to grandson to not leaving him anything and leaving it all to me, yes, even though I would get it anyway, but leaving a will kept it from having to go through probate. Everything still will go to you and your sister - that is, if there's anything left now, right? after selling the house and all the proceeds have been gone, so not really an issue any more, right? except, of course, with sister, like me with grandson. I was really concerned will wise like that myself at one point, as to whether I should try to have a new one filed but how would you do that anyway? But if I had would have been difficult because found out about his attorney with mom being in the hospital with her hip with him signing papers without realizing it to have mom put in the nh then. The head nursing supervisor/administrator is the one who sent us to his attorney then, only for us to find out he'd left town - without telling us- by finding his office shut down and the door locked. Not sure which we did first, go find out what happened to him or go back to the hospital to find her to tell her what we'd found out about him which then when we did we had to be banned from the hospital or allow it to happen which there was more to it than that with my uncle, her brother, being involved, or maybe it was more his wife, who was in with mom's hip surgeon's nurse practitioner. My grandmother had already warned me that she'd gotten all of her family's money and had tried to get all of hers. And so now she was trying to get theirs, which I wouldn't have necessarily had a problem with myself but I knew that, at least the way they were going about it - so maybe to say she was after it, in this case, for herself, but then not quite sure how it was all going to work - might not have been for them but they were trying to place them both in a place her church had, which was another issue, since it wasn't my parents kind. But somehow through all of that the issue of the will, since he was gone, came up, that we had to make sure of where it was so things could be taken care of if/when something happened but then that's when it came up that I then got it, so could be brought up then and not just not brought up and this new one made up not questioned by it. But at that time not sure any of us thought mom would go first; of course, by the time she did a lot had been said in that year that makes me wonder about a lot of things. Sounds like - btw, by the time this had happened he'd gotten rid of that crazy girlfriend - she'd really thought she was going to get it all as well. So for all that what's with your dad's oncology issue? oh, and all that having to run off was over hearing from that grandson regarding dad's house.

wow, you are really into technology; I mean, I knew about GPS's but the thought never occurred to me to put one on dad's car but looking back maybe I should have because I found out after mom died when he had a house - well, garage - fire, long story there - that turned out apparently he had had an actual wreck with another car, in addition to all the one with inanimate objects that just weren't reported since think he did just have liability insurance anyway but this one was and as I think I understood from his agent then that if he'd had another one reported they would have pulled his insurance but thankfully - or not - apparently he didn't but at the time he did was when mom was still here and he actually was taking her to her eye doctor in actually the next town over, which really he probably had no business doing and mom had been telling me she was scared of his driving but because of her own eye issues she probably shouldn't be driving anyway and wouldn't, actually I'd had them down here with me with an eye doctor here but he was getting antsy to get back home so asked if she couldn't just be transferred to a doctor back home, which took some doing and really wasn't a real good idea but we got it done - interesting aside, he told me later, after she was gone, that if we'd done some things different to make a place for them to stay, not with us, that he would have moved down here, sure wish he'd talked/said/acted like that then but she never told me about the wreck, thinking by that time her memory was getting to the point I think she forgot about it and maybe I never really got it, though maybe I should have because any time I was around he always just had me drive but maybe I just chose to ignore it - funny, hub and I were just talking tonight about people doing that but what was I supposed to do if he couldn't drive her around but she had already been telling me that he was coming home telling her he'd been getting lost in town, would have her worried to death any time he would leave home. But how did you manage to put the cameras in his house without him knowing? Are you saying you wouldn't have been allowed to keep them? by who? Maybe I'm forgetting something - whose pain medication? and disappointing to who? I think I guess I'm fortunate in one sense, that dad had I think enough of a physical issue that they were talking to me about nh without even getting into all the psych stuff issues so I don't think I would have had to have gone through that but I have a friend who had to go through it with her mom and yes, went through that very thing; it was horrible, tore her up too but she doesn't remember any of it now either; you don't really have to lie but you don't have to try to convince them of the truth either - her mom's about your dad's age, just think that's so sad; my dad was much older but the math was a big alert with him as well - he was always so sharp with it.

PS - there would have been nothing required on the deed over my mom not still being alive - she died in the same county. At least that's how it works where I live.

The stalker lady woke him/me up - because she knocked on the door at 11 pm one night. He opened it so it set off my phone as an alert. I go to the computer and see him letting her in. She had already been talked to about not being around my dad. The first time I met her she was just there when I showed up one day but she was setting off alarms in my head - this was before I was hands on every day - she had a list of things for him to do and alot of it had to do with him packing some things. So before I ran this lunatic off - I went to the neighbors to see if she was a legitimate new friend they'd seen reg and they hadn't so when she left I asked my dad - he said he really didn't want her there and that "she had some of my money" so the next occasion I told her that this was a very complex family issue that was only complicated by someone not involved in planning. A decent person would have just stayed away but she kept persisting. One time I was on my way there, via GPS prog the van was parked in the driveway so I expected him to be there. My car was in driveway and I made neighbors go in with me because he didn't answer when I opened the door - because I came home to my husband having died unexpectedly I was a hysterical mess I'd have to go thru that again. Went thru the whole house - nothing. A few minutes later he comes hobbling down the street - she'd seen my car in the drive and dumped him off so I couldn't confront her. The next time that happened - me and the neighbor took my car to a close park and I waited. She pulled in the drive, worried when I walked out the door and I was stern with her - come back here again and I'm calling the cops. The next time she interfered was over that van. I'm at my doc and I get an alert the car was out of the geofence I set up so I leave and go where the van is. It was at a mechanic that had started a $800 repair we weren't going to make. It had a dummy light on that troubled my dad every time we got in it - I knew we probably weren't going to keep it long and it was running okay. When she got him that day - as usual - he mentioned that dummy light and she took it to mechanic by the time I got the 30 mins from my doc - they'd already ordered the $500 computer that wasn't necessary so I let them fix. The time she woke him up - I got in my car and started heading there --- I waited til the I was close to call the PD because I was getting my few minutes with her (wasn't going to leave marks ha ha) but I was hot. The police still beat me there. She was nowhere in the house - then one of the cops finding her out behind a tree in the backyard - now why, if you're a legit friend, are you hiding behind a tree in the backyard in subzero weather??? When I got back home I checked what happened when the doors opened for her to exit - you can see that my dad and her both noted the flashing red lights outside because I could see themon the walls - she grabbed her purse and booked out the garage door - Her car was down the street and not in the drive also. That camera system saves footage 30 secs before and after a door opens. So the police talked to her that night. Eventually my dad went in the NH on a Tues and I was finally starting to get used to not hearing that sound on my phone of doors opening. Until Saturday, then I heard that alert. At first I was like WTH????? How can that be - my dad's not even there anymore. Go to the computer and there she is - just walking right in the door. The inside garage door was unlocked. so once I again I get in my car and head to town and all the police. She was gone by then but the police tracked her down and they talked me out of pressing charges. It was a mess - on top of everything else. Story of my life. :-)
As for not filing the house - it wasn't mine to cut my sister out no matter how much she didn't deserve it - so I just didn't and would have been completely okay if the state ended up with it because they were doing more than my sister. I wasn't out for my dad's money - I didn't need it enough to do anything dishonest ----- for instance - initially I told the neighbors maybe that lady was keeping my dad company - I had his bank stuff locked down so I would know if anything was coming out of it. That's when they reminded me that she could ahve easily persuaded my dad to sign papers - like POA, or deed or Will or yikes Marriage!!! I actually had to go to the courthouse and make sure they hadn't gotten married. My dad was so pliable at that point that she could have gotten him up to the courthouse and if he balked on it - all she would have had to do was say "but you told me we were going to do this" -- so yup, I was ready to kill this lady. And then there's the issue of a will and still doing the right thing - my dad did not have a will so everything would have gone to me and my sister in probate had he died. The ONLY way I could make sure this crazy lady hadn't had a will done was to file a new one. And I found an honest lawyer - who asked me "if I ask your dad how many children does he have, how many is he going to say?" At that time he still knew he had two. I dropped the process right there. I was more okay with some crazy lady getting what he had before I'd let the sibling have anything. I was never out to get my dad's money - and I would never cut my sister out - not my call to make. But I didn't have to do anything to facilitate her getting anything even if it meant some nutcase got it. So I guess I'm a little bitter about having all of it dumped on me. Hope that answers a few things. I have some crazy stories through all of this.

I think technology really helped me keep my dad home longer. Before he was really having problems but I was just starting to monitor him and his driving habits, I installed a GPS system in his van. A couple times he took it out but I just put a note on it - do not unplug and he was good about following instructions. Like the home system - I could set alerts on the computer. Anytime that car backed out of the driveway - I got a text message. It allowed you to set a "geofence" - I set mine for a 2 mi radius around his house - if that vehicle went outside that limit - I got a text message and I could log in and see where he was. At the end of the day - I could run a report and it would tell me everywhere he went if he was stopped any longer than 40 secs. People were taking advantage of him right and left and I could at least back track. I set that up because I was starting to get some idea he was having trouble - tho after I started taking care of him, i let him drive while I was in the car and he never missed a stop sign and never scared me. I knew taking his driving away was going to be a problem. That GPS program really was what told me he was having real issues with forgetting --- he would leave his house 15-20 times a day, and drive in a circle around time - my guess is that's when he really started the short term memory stuff --- he'd get in the car to go somewhere and forget where he was going then turn around and just go back home. He did not what that thing did. He also did not know I put the cameras in his house. They were only on the doors for privacy reasons but one of the cameras gave me a clear shot of the stairs out of his bedroom. I had a motion detector for the upstairs so I could get there in the morning but not wake him up until it alerted me he was up and moving, usually about 6:30. I would have had to put him in a NH a whole lot sooner without it because of the issues with mistaking me for his girlfriend. Once he got nobody was going to let me keep doing that. It WAS working - I really only had to use that pain medication ONE time thru the whole several months. So disappointing. I guess the timing was right - he only begged me not to leave him somewhere when they admitted him to the psych unit - suggested by the NH as part of getting him there. Nobody wants to hear those words - please don't leave me here. It ate me up and I hope someday I can stop hearing that. I went to our city park and just prayed that a giant indian would just suffocate the life out of him. Referring to One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest as he was in a psych unit for 3 days. By the time he went to NH he's "forgotten" he was being left anywhere - he was having "tests run". You hate to lie but it's the best way. Now, two years later he doesn't have a clue who he is - can't make intelligible sentences. He's 76. He stopped being able to do math with success at 70 - the first alert.

ok, think got that now; house proceeds went to pay off car - take it he financed it? thinking maybe that's why dad never would buy that last car he wanted because he didn't want to finance it, should have bought it when he still had the money instead of letting it get away from him; his old one got in pretty bad shape, too, before it was over with, don't know if you'd say it quite broke down, but then guess if you're having to replace stuff to keep it going and still remember the time I was driving it and him around town and it kept dying till it died right in heavy traffic, scared me to death, told him I was taking it to the shop, thinking we must have left it, they must have brought us home, know cost, what to his thinking, was a lot, but wasn't so much he couldn't just write a check for it, so was never anything major at a time, just began to nickel and dime you out, that type thing, that at one time would have gotten him to have gotten a new one but not then, maybe good...maybe not....I think he just kept expecting to not be around long enough to be worth while, seems he thought just the opposite of most people, but what would you have done in the meantime if you hadn't? I guess I'm glad I didn't have that type vehicle; I have a jeep, not even really sure why I was driving his car, might have been easier on him with my jeep but then didn't seem to be, our later or my husband's Grand, yes, but mine was just basic so wasn't, we weren't going to let my dad go in either but had it been just me, I might have had to as well with getting a granddaughter born with a heart condition who never came home from the hospital; at one time, had her and dad both in hospitals at the same time, plus he was getting confused about who I was as well but I had his neighbors at that time as well; went through the same thing but he got his grandson, so he had been able to keep him home. Emerald, that is so sad about your mom; so so sorry; mine has only been gone 5 yrs. He stayed by himself for about a year; well, really longer than that, but that long with no problems. I wish I'd gotten one of those systems installed; how did you do that? did he know you did it? but I can imagine how disturbing it would be though, though not sure I thought of that at the time when I was wanting to do it, wasn't why I didn't do it and probably should have taken his car away as well but it wasn't just a matter of at night, he didn't drive then anyway, at least not after he got stopped for it by the police, but that's what finally happened; he liked to go out at night, after dark, and sit on his porch, then that night there was that thing about the moon being closer than usual or whatever it was, he didn't just sit, he stood up to get a better look and fell - so did I misunderstand? guess to begin with thought you meant you just went over at supper time, when read that was thinking you were working but no, sounds like you went and spent the day with him, earlier think you talked about having those last 2 yrs. with him, if that's what you did think you'll always cherish that, wish I could have had that with mine - question, in spite of all how you were affected by what happened with your husband, had it not happened, could you have had that time with your dad? instead his grandson got that time and like you, to begin with didn't have to be there all the time so he'd do like you and get out and go places; dad got one of those life alert bracelets as soon as mom died with the neighbors phone number programmed into so if something happened they were alerted plus some just kept an eye out on him, too; the life alert went off once in the middle of the night and both neighbors went over since they were afraid of what might have happened but it was nothing; he'd just rolled over on it or something; it was supposed to call him and maybe it did but he couldn't hear the phone that was in his room, something else I guess I should have taken care of, at least they came because if they called enough people and nobody responded they'd call the police but how did the stalker lady wake you up? I'm not minding. How old is your dad? because I thought at some point they quit doing things like colonoscopies and stuff; I know they quit doing those prostate things on my dad but they said it's because unless he was having problems they wouldn't do anything anyway and your dad's not having colon problems, is he? it's just that routine thing, right? so I don't think I would worry about it, depending of course, because it could be bad if he did need it, like what's his oncology follow-up about? dad had all of that but actually not until after he wound up in the hospital; before then just his regular doctor was doing it, so could the doctor at the nh take care of it; is he having problems? really not sure that even after dad wound up in the hospital that he needed to have his oncologist, just that the hospital didn't know what was going on so referred him back to him, not sure why he didn't just tell them he knew what was going on and it wasn't any big deal and just let things to back to the way they were before, except somehow through that's when he started needing blood - and on that note, I have to run -

yea, wow - you have been through a lot - throwing in now breaking your hand - we'd just thought my mil had done that; she fell last Friday night, just glad her new husband checked on her, she couldn't get up, but they didn't do anything, even let us know, till hub saw her Sunday morning and church and basically took her straight to the er, but, thankfully, wasn't broken, but hate that so bad yours was - but just so sorry you felt so bad, but glad your husband had that in his pension - actually guess need to say glad he had a pension, was going to say need to check on that provision re my hub's employer, then remembered - wait, he doesn't even have a pension anyway, oops - I'm glad they're taking good care of your dad, can see why you want to help them - they say Medicaid doesn't really cover the cost, why things are getting the way they are; still not really sure myself why you didn't actually file the deed on the house but otoh I can because like you said you would have just sold it anyway - got a call this morning from hub's aunt talking again about how their son talked them into signing their land over to him - why I wouldn't do that with my parents but guess still don't really understand if it was signed over to you how your sister would have gotten anything anyway unless you just let her have it, almost seems like, if it was all in your name, would have been even more reason to file it; wonder what would have happened with us had our land been filed sooner, if they'd gotten a deed sooner, not really sure what made them do it when they did, seems as if the death triggered it, not sure we had any idea it hadn't been done; did you have to swear that your mom was gone, like I had to with the deed to my dad's house? well, not really the deed because she didn't actually handle it; was done later just by the lawyer, and yours was just notarized? like the deed to our land, which they say doesn't really mean anything except just verifies that the people signing are who they say they are, doesn't really have anything to do with any verification of the deed itself, which, never thought about how dad's was but apparently not too much of a problem since they just did the paperwork; at least with hub's aunt and uncle, at least we think, it too has been done far enough back that there should be no penalty now but she not really thinking that way, she thinking she doesn't have its value to use to pay the nh or somewhere or something; I'm thinking nobody expected them to still be around to need it by now but I don't think you would have had an issue once he died; think the issue comes in trying to sell it before they die, like what are they going to do now; will son sell the land to pay for their care and pay the taxes? that's what I was thinking but somewhat same situation, they think about how they paid for that land and they could use that money now to pay for their care. But I think I'm still confused; were you going to get the whole house for moving in with and taking care of your dad?

Wow! You have done an amazing job!!

Oh and as for the capital gains thing on the house -- that discussion I had with my sister was done at time (before he was confused about me being a girlfriend) where I would absolutely have moved in with him and kept him home much longer than I did. In transferring the house, I would have done so at no cost to me which is FAR below the FMV. Say he had died before 2 years, and I sold the house at its normal FMV, she told me capital gains would have to be paid on the full amount as I didn't pay anything for it. How that worked out going forward, had I filed that deed back at that time, which was BEFORE IL adopted the federal rules, we would have been well beyond the penalty clock running as under the rules in place at that time, the penalty started at the time of the transfer. Signed, notarized, even made a trip to the county inquiring about what I needed to do since my mom was still on deed. But I sat on it. Not sure why. I wasn't anxious to be taking anything. And then when I realized 2 years later, she wasn't going to life a finger to help me or even make a phone call but could post pictures of herself at a bar 2 mins from his house, I tore it up. I would never cut her out because it wasn't mine to choose that, but I sure didn't have to do anything so she could get her half any earlier. Looking back now some might consider it a mistake that I didn't file it then because I would have run out any penalty and the house would be free and clear. But I would have sold it anyway to help the NH. They are taking good care of my dad. I'm just sorry I didn't feel better at the time and let the attorney auction it off in a rush because I could have gotten more for the NH otherwise.

There is nothing left from the house proceeds. The atty figured that out to the penny. Out of the $8,000 I paid two months NH, bought a couple things for my dad like this transport wheelchair, a coat, but I had him already provided for in most things, it didn't seem right just to buy things to be buying. So I am paying for his supplies out of my income. Do not have a problem with that. The rest of the money from the sale of house - after the $8000, I had, the attorney got approx little more than a 1/4 - he also made himself closing agent so he got those fees also. The rest went to pay off his car of $17,000. We had bought a newer car the year before he got so bad because his van just kept breaking down on us - total value on the van thing was less than $1,000. I just needed it to transport him every day because I have a 2 seat car that sits low to the ground and just couldn't lift him out. No room for a transport chair in it either. If I had any way to know that he was going to be NH within a year - wouldn't have done it. I was NEVER going to let him go in. I would probably still be doing it except I broke my hand so badly, I had to have surgery and external fixation pins for a couple months and my system failed. I couldn't live with my dad because of his confusion on who I was - sometimes he made advances and nobody in our circle of professionals thought it was a good idea for me to live there full time because they can get aggressive if you don't respond to them in the manner they are relating to you. Most of the time if there were issues like that - I could take a short break and go to the neighbors. Not that it's funny but sometimes when I'd return he'd ask me what I was doing there - I'd say it's time for us to go to lunch, and he'd say "I don't know why you're coming here if we're getting divorced". Crazy stuff like that on a regular basis. My parents were married 30 years 2 weeks before she died at 48, in love and not ever a thought about divorcing so I have no idea where that came from. Anyway I would go there at 6 every day and stay til about 7 - after I gave him dinner, and knew he was settled for the night. He could still get around the house on his own and was still capable of getting food/drink if he needed it after that hour, toileting and all was fine. I had installed an ADT Pulse INteractive system. There were cameras on all the doors. I could watch him live but it was disturbing - he would shuffle papers on his table for an hour or two before he went to bed and talk to someone that wasn't there. I took his car home with me everyday so he no longer had access to a vehicle. AND the system online allowed you set alert notices --- anytime a door opened in the house, I had a special text message sound assigned to that event. Any time I got an alert that a door opened, I would sign on and see what was going on. Later in the progression, I had to sleep with my phone because he would get up a couple times a night, open a door, look around and go back to bed. Never left. However, when I broke my hand, after we'd been out in 100 degree heat alot of the day, I took pain medication (one and only time for that) and was concerned if I was sleeping too soundly I wouldn't hear the alert on my phone. SO I set my alarm clock for 1:00 a.m., because that was around the time he usually started that stuff. I missed the police by 30 mins. I was so devastated. They found him wandering up and down his street "looking for his wife". I assume that was me - my mom's been gone 25 years. I was heartbroken and everybody consulting me started putting pressure on me to place him. My psych the worst of all - if I didn't at least start making an effort, he would hospitalize me for exhaustion and depression. I had never said I would hurt myself but I thought about it one time. The Xmas before the time he got out. I was exhausted because he would wake me up 2-3 times a night opening doors. I could take breaks throughout the day while I was there - sometimes I would go take a nap in my car at our city park. Other times I'd sit in the library because they had wifi there. On Sundays I could sit in the hospital lobby for wifi because library was closed. I was too far away from my house to go home (about 20 mins). He could be home for short periods of time alone at that point and I his neighbors kept an eye out too. Like at night if there was any problem that I needed to be there for right away, I just called them and they'd walk over. Only happened once tho --- when that stalker lady came at 11 one night and woke him and ME up. The police were called at that time because I'd warner her several times to stay away - she was not known to our family until he got sick and even then, no idea where she came from. She was crazy. Got off topic there sorry.
Up to the time the lawyer got involved I was making the payment on my dad's car and covering ins. The attorney told me - that it probably was worth more than the state allows but that a car of any value is an exempt asset if it's used for doctor's appts that can't be taken care of at the NH. Like the specialists - the osteo guy that was giving him synthetic cartilage in the knee so he wasn't in pain, and regular followup with the oncologist. They have contacted me and said he is due for a colonoscopy but I'm thinking just not going to. I can sell the car and give a chunk of money to the NH which means the ending of all those kind of outside things. I try to take him to lunch sometimes just to be out but I don't think he even knows anymore. I don't need it outside of that - my car is 13 years old and runs great - I just can't get him or his chair in it. Whether or not the State would allow him to keep it - I'd feel better about being able to give the NH the money. Again I don't like having to make those choices but what good is it going to do him at this point?
As for the survivor benefit that was part of my husband's pension through his job - not SS or anything.
As for the rules in IL - they handle how the penalties are applied based on when IL adopted the federal law, which in this case is January 2012. They still look back 5 years which is the time period where my sister got money - but there is a specific waiver form for that which my attorney said was allowed. Basically it states the transfers done during that time were done in accordance with the rules in place at the time. The change in how penalties were applied is PRIOR to Jan 2012, any transfers were penalized from the time the transfer was made. So if my dad gave my sister $20,000 which would be approx 4 mos penalties- we would be well beyond a penalty period based on the rules followed at that time. Currently, the transfer penalties dont start running til after you're eligible to receive benefits even if you made the transfer 5 year ago. If that makes sense. It's hard to be clear typing somehow.

and, emerald, I wonder if they misunderstood as well and thought you meant more than dad's income, but the whole amount of the nh cost but I'm actually intrigued - though I do want to say; I feel I haven't addressed this, that I am so sorry you're having/had to go through this right on top of losing your own husband - just want to say I know somebody - well, several, but actually somebody who had a very similar situation, although I think somebody did find hers but still she was away taking care of her mother, somewhat like you with your dad, when it happened and she's had a hard time of it, too, like you, not sure she could have turned around and done what you did, although maybe in a way she did, think she did at least go ahead and move in with her mom, but it was both her parents so she at least had her dad, who helped take care of her, think must have helped her get a job, which she was able to do, but think only because of the kind it was - but what intrigued by is your statement about survivor's benefits at 50 - I know of 3 others who lost their husbands in that age range and never heard anything about either of them getting them; know for sure 1 didn't till at least 60 so if you did that's great; at least not still having to deal with that. I don't understand a whole lot about the capital gains stuff, just know I was told with my dad's house, at least after he passed away but maybe it's the same thing somewhat, that the basis value would then be what it was assessed at at time of his death, not what he paid for it, so if I sold it fairly soon - or at least if the value didn't go up - was going to say if I didn't get that much for it, but it does have to be at least FMV, right? - then there wouldn't be much gains for capital anyway. Possibly, though not sure since not really understanding, wish we'd done the same thing same time since that's when my dad had his bad fall and I would have thought he would have wanted to since he had been before my mom passed away the year prior but we had some issues trying to get some things taken care of then so never got into it and maybe the fall did something because when I brought it up then he couldn't even really comprehend it so just didn't get done. And don't think understood they'd changed the rules that penalty doesn't start until Medicaid applied for or maybe I thought it had always been that way, unless that's just the 2 yr. thing because thought they'd had the 5 yr. lookback for a while. And guess don't really understand either; was your sister going to get paid for the house? how? thought it was your dad's? I do understand about the situation you got into about the sale of his house, though; I was tried to be rushed into doing the same thing; well, somewhat still am, but didn't want to either so haven't done anything yet but still not sure I understand - so this $8000 came from the sale of the house...right? so what happened to the rest of it - I know you said the lawyer got his cut but then what about the rest? I understand, I think, you paid the whole $8000 to the NH but what about the rest of what was left of the - well, guess getting closer maybe to, what, just $20K? after the $8K and the lawyer fee
except, get it, you bought the chair - and then beyond that you still have the house proceeds money - that you're using to pay the $100/mo. supplies bill - not out of your money, like I somehow thought and not out of his personal allowance money he's allowed to keep for that purpose? so you're trying now to provide for his needs out of the house allowance money - after - you've applied to Medicaid - and put him in the nh? - yea, hm....not sure I understand about the car - you could keep it to take him to appts.? but you're selling it to put on the nursing home bill? or you were in order to keep the money that you're now being told you can't keep anyway? so then why go ahead and sell the car, especially if that means you can't get him to his appts. and especially if that means he can't get there at all - will they transport him? or at least call an ambulance?
and you're not saying you'd give the nh what you made off selling your condo, are you?
are the bills not showing his income - I'm sure he "is" getting at least SS, right? - being applied to the nh? if not, I'd sure check into that
and as far as being shuffled my friend was concerned about that as well - they had some issues with her mom and they ended up sending her about a couple hours away but it was only temporarily and happened to be right when she was going that way anyway so that worked but then when time for her to be discharged from there it had been long enough (which isn't long, is it) that they didn't have a place to take her back where she'd been so were going to have to place her a hour away but she asked for just a little more time and something happened that she was able to get her back but, yes, I do understand, that, I guess, is the bad part of all this, isn't it..she's got her mom about that close, too. But sounds like in your case it might not be a bad idea for them to move him about an hour away, say, close to your friends, and you sell your condo to get away from your dad's house that's not his anymore and he's not there and move there as well - that sound like a plan? But, yes, Emerald, I can certainly understand what you're actually going through with your dad - it liked to have killed me seeing mine like that - honestly, I wish, in many ways, he hadn't even had his last couple years - what exactly are you saying you're discontinuing regarding your dad's cancer?

My dad gets almost $1200 in SS and a small pension about $600 a month. I write every penny about his account. If I wasn't in such a hole financially after all this - I would contribute as much as I could. After the first rejection, I was a hysterical mess at the NH---- I told them I would do whatever I could, asked them if they could give me a job there and I'd give them every penny. They said they couldn't do that. Not sure if they didn't have jobs but I got the impression there's a problem with that. I'm looking for a job now. I can meet my bills on the survivor benefit from my husband died but I could contribute more if I had a job and made extra. It would probably be good for me not to be solely focused on this and for being more social. I have so isolated myself and rarely socialize that I almost feel feral. LOL

igloo, I'm sorry, I either misunderstood something somewhere or said something wrong - yes, I do understand the "resident" has to give up "their" "income" to the NH; in my friend's mother's situation, yes, they did do that but somehow I'd gotten the idea (and somewhat still do) that emerald was doing more than that - actually I haven't really seen (I don't think) anything about her dad's income but guess doesn't really matter since, seemingly, this balance is beyond that anyway and that's what I meant about not having to be paid while pending - now, having said that, yes, if "resident" still had a mortgage (and, yes, horrors! guess another - or maybe "the" reason to not have one) what is the reason for keeping all that going - would you be expecting them to come home? now, again, my friend's case, she had her daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter living with her who, ostensibly, could have kept all that up - not that they did, but that's a different story - such that they did eventually move out and let everything go, although not sure anything's actually been done with it but also, yes, I understand where emerald's lawyer was coming from with parts of the spend-down, anyway - trying so desperately to get hub's aunt and uncle to buy a burial policy but they've just heard so many horror stories about them that they won't so here they sit....but, yes, I do understand copay with their income - sorry for the confusion

The nursing home did take my dad pending medicaid. When I first applied and had a phone interview, they asked about his income and I told them then - that I was giving every dime to NH. That's when she told me, it wasn't necessary but that didn't make sense to me so I just continued doing it. I only needed my dad's help in the very EARLY times I took care of him - the last 2 years I did not, because I had turned 50, and the survivor benefit from my husband went into effect. After that I didn't need anything from my dad.
When I started with the elder care lawyer, I couldn't think (stress, exhaustion make my ADD horrible since the brain surgery). When I first saw him I said not interested in asset preservation, he's head spun. I was adamant that I didn't need anything else - my dad helped me enough to get us to that point - his response was "well let's dont be dying on any swords here". That's what they do, I get it but my only concern was getting my dad's medicaid approved. When my sister was still involved, she discussed with me getting the house put in my name. Making the house my permanent address so a clock would start running by the time anything happened to him. She said as long as I lived there 2 years we would get around capital gains taxes. I did that in April 2011 (which it turns out, IL didnt officially implement the Fed rules until Jan 2012 - the one thing I did get from the lawyer). I had a quick claim deed signed and notarized 4/11. After I realized my sister wasn't going to lift a finger, I never filed it and tore it up in 2013. I would never have cut her out completely, because it wasn't my money but I sure didn't have to do a thing so that she could get hers any sooner. I would have let the State have it before her. What I learned about the rules, is if I HAD done it then before the rules changed - I'd be sitting on the house with no problems. The penalty back then started running from the time of the transfer. After Jan 2012, the penalty didn't start running until the time of application. The ONLY regret I have about the house is I didn't have it together emotional to make it presentable for sale and let the attorney rush thru an auction "as is". It was paid for. It sold for about $40,000. The buy put in another $10,000 updates and sold it for 90. I hate that if I had enough energy to do that - I could have given the nursing home more. I just didn't understand pennying everything to death - like out of that $8000 - he instructed me to pay a full month and then gave me a number of days for the other. I just paid the whole thing, it was senseless not to - no matter what - let it apply to the balance.
We bought a transport chair for his car so that I could take him to an osteo dr and follow up oncology appts. I can't get him or that thing in and out of my car. Other than that - the NH provides him a chair. I pay for his monthly supplies approx $100/mo. We bought some clothes, not many out of the house proceeds, but going forward I have no problem supplying whatever he needs. The car is over the value of allowable so I'm selling it - what comes with that is I'm withdrawing any follow up appts of any kinds - it's the only way you're allowed to keep the car. That was a hard decision to make - He had cancer surg at the start of this and now I'm just discontinuing - I can't get him in and out of my car. I guess the osteo doc is not necessary since he's in a chair - he had almost no cartilage left in his knees and the doc was shocked he was still walking. I didn't realize just how much I was "propping" my dad up in a lot of way so when he went into the NH and I was no longer doing for him - I was shocked at his dependency and it tears me up.
what would I do without my condo - I would rent a small apt somewhere. I want to do that anyway - the plan for this place was to be here for when my husband needed AL - he didn't make it thru that plan. I KNOW it would be good for me to get out of here but I've been too depressed just to pack it all up and not just pitch it all. Seeing that place across the street is just a reminder.
Nobody has ever said anything to me about a co-pay and I don't see on the bills that there is any other monies being applied to his care. We have a balance of about $49,000 over 2 years now.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do if they start shuffling him around esp if it's not somewhere I can get to him easily. He's about 15 mins away from me now. I get sick every time I go to my mailbox. When they finally gave me some determination, that they wouldn't pay until 11/2016. Initially I started think - okay, I can take out all of my living room furniture and put in a hospital bed, etc. Just drove my nuts trying to figure out a way I could it - feeling like I can't was a blow. It doesn't happen often but aside from the problem with bathing/toileting him - sometimes he acts aggressively and they sedate him. That would be impossible for me. The doctors just keep giving me pills. They're watching me pretty closely right now - I didn't do it purposely but drank on top of some of the meds - pretty heavily. Ended up an hour away from here in freezing weather in my pj's, no shoes and no coat. Fortunately to a friend I trust. Been there a ton of times, and glad the neighbors knew me because I knocked on the wrong door initially. Didn't know that or that I was even there until I woke up the next day. My friend said I passed out sitting on his toilet and when he got me up - he said I just cried for an hour before I went back to sleep. Lucky I didn't kill anybody getting there and that realization knocked some sense into me. Every rejection/denial/setback just gets worse because it's just been SO damn long since I had a life when I didn't wake up with some concern or another over my dad. I haven't restarted living my own life and just having trouble getting started.
We had a lot of unusual problems - like a stalker lady. She's lucky to be alive. Crazy woman even got in my dad's house 5 days after he was in the NH. The upside for me, probably the saving grace, I gave my dad's last couple years some joy. I hate seeing someone so brilliant as he was so gone. He would literally eat glue if you put it in front of him. At the Thanksgiving dinner they had sprinkled silk leaves on the table - he tried eating them. I haven't learned how to "step away" from it. Thanks for listening.

DebD- if a resident is"Medicaid Pending" they HAVE TO PAY the facility - whether a NH or AL that takes a waiver - their monthly income less whatever their state has for their personal needs allowance (ranges from $35-105). It's their co-pay or SOC (share of cost) in Medicaid speak. For my mom, she got $800 SS & $1k retirement each month; her state TX has the PNA @ $60; so every month, even during her Medicaid pending period of 5 months, mom had to do her copay to the NH of $ 1,740.

Often the copay comes as a total unexpected to family. If the elder has monthly expenses (mortgage, house ownership costs, insurance premiums, CC debt, etc) someone in the family has to pay for all if they want to keep whatever going. This is kinda why it's so very important to do a spend-down where it does the best long view good for the elder. Like paying for dental work or burial policy is better than paying off a CC. If they have a mortgage (horrors!) all this is especially sticky as there is no $ to pay mortgage and if property doesn't sell immediately, it goes into foreclosure. But whatever their situation, copay has to be paid to facility.

just wanted to say further I've seen those type of instructions regarding going out and buying for dad because anything spent on him is, of course, not counted against him then in penalties, such as you're facing now and often there are things that they may not need then but will - like is there still nothing your dad needs? how did he get his wheelchair? Does the NH provide his incontinent supplies? guess just wondering if possibly you were thinking that because of his condition there was nothing necessary that might at least have been, although I understand that being not how you do things; I was raised that way as well; my dad didn't buy a lot of things that might not have seemed "necessary" to him or me at that time but I learned later they at least really could have - and were by others - been but when you've been raised to do without there's a lot that's not considered "necessary" that others do - not quite sure what you're saying about the other families - do those resident's have it to give the nursing home? do they have a home? they may not; is that what you're saying? did they take him "Medicaid pending"; it's my understanding that at that point you don't have to be paying anything, not until they do complete their process, which is what I'm understanding they've done now, right? was it the elder law attorney you'd hired who went with you, not to legal aid, right? to the Medicaid office, right? were you not able to get either your psychologist or psychiatrist to go with you? although, thankfully, in that sense, you ended up not having to go through a hearing, after all - but that lawyer telling you you could gift yourself $8,000 out of the sale of your dad's house?! but you have given the rest of the proceeds of the sale of your dad's house to the nursing home, right? this is the very thing that so many elderly and/or their children talk about not wanting to see happen, which is why so many do do asset protection, to try to prevent this. So did his house not bring even enough to cover the balance the nh says you owe?

what would you do if you sold your condo? isn't that where you live? my dad only had $15,000 when he passed away - his last CD, after he'd been milked and bilked out of almost a $100K - and when it came down to the end it was a matter of hospice, going home vs having been told there was inpatient hospice at the hospital where he was to being told there wasn't because it didn't have a contract with the hospice agency to, after talking with the state to get the hospital billing office to come talk to us, almost deciding to use that and private pay for him to be able to stay there, and after everything that's happened I almost wish we had. So now what is this additional 60 days for? to try to get this hardship application in or approved?....Are you the financial POA? The money your sister got is a similar situation with my husband's aunt and uncle; they gave their money to their grandson, as well as some he just took; they tried to get them to file a police report on him over it but as so often happens they wouldn't so now they have somewhat of a similar situation - going to go look at your other response because of some things I've seen about that

After about 9 mos working with this guy, I just felt funny about it. We were denied once for lack of providing requested documents (third party - had no control over how quickly they came, all my things were in timely). So he filed an appeal which led to a hearing. Before the hearing could take place, DHS updated a policy that if any clients were denied on timeliness that they would be given an addl 60 days with no appeal necessary. He sent me that about 2 weeks before the hearing. But somehow the law office SAID they could never get anybody to call them back saying that the hearing was unnecessary so therefore we had to show up. Side note - he had another file and said he was also there to take care of something for it. We waited those couple hours and the hearing person acted like she was surprised we were there and I lost it (I was already on edge knowing I was paying him all that money to just wait) when I found out we didn't need to be there. I became so upset that they left me in there and went in another room. And we walked out together. I never did see him do anything on the other case. i went straight to the NH thinking I had good news to tell them, that we were extended. Guess what? They already knew that. I asked how that was - they made a phone call to the state. That's when I decided to fire that guy. The NH got the answer about whether a hearing was no longer necessary - and he never could? Funny thing is - he's emailed me in the intervening months. I let him know that I was now working with Senator Kirk's office (not about him) and since that time --- he's been really "helpful". Sending me forms to use, etc. No bill. It seems a little fishy. I absolutely want to do the right thing. If I could sell my condo, tho I don't have a WHOLE lot in it, maybe $15,000 --- I would give them that. The absolute best days I have going to visit are the ones where I can take my dad's check in there --- just ashamed I cannot pay more.

The money your sister took off with? A person applying for and recieving Medicaid cannot "Gift" money to anyone. They also cannot sell assets at below fair market value. You may need to Get your State Bar to look into some of the practices that this Attorney did with your Dad's estate. Sorry this happened to you when you were trying to do the right thing. It is not your responsibility to care for him but if you are the Financial POA it is your duty to pay his Nursing Home Bills with his money and estate. You may have to file a police report for the money your sister took. In my state that is acceptable as part of the Hardship application process. Good Luck

The attorney got almost a 1/4 of it, he calculated that I could make a "gift" to myself of $8,000 - most of which was later eaten up in his fees (took out a personal loan to pay his final $3,000 bill). The other went to pay my dad's car loan (which I'm trying to sell now) and proceeds will go to NH. If you have to go to hearings - just beware of this. I used to work in a law firm and when you get notices for a hearing at 9 am., you better be there at 9 a.m. That's not how state public aid offices work - you show up at 9, and wait hours til they get to you. At that time I knew I was paying him $300/hr from my own finances. After 2 hours I started getting upset because I really couldn't afford that -- so every time the door opened and we weren't called, I got more tense. Finally he said don't worry, I can be here til 4 pm. I blew up - I said I can't afford to pay you $300 an hour to just sit here all day. For the week leading up to it, I kept asking the paralegal should I be there. Never heard anything so I finally just said - you tell him I'll meet him there Monday. My wondering now - what if I hadn't gone not knowing how the process works, and he came back after billing me a whole day saying something like he worked with them all day and got the denial extension. After we finally got in there - it took all of 2 mins - because their own policy demanded they grant us extra time. I got to pay the nursing home 2 complete months out of the rest. If you do hire an elder attorney and you are NOT concerned about asset preservation - keep an eye out. If I wasn't practically suicidal at the time, and had anybody helping me - I would have put the house on the regular market and been able to give the NH more. I have a lot of regret about hiring this guy. I just wasn't okay with some of the instructions he gave me for proceeds. Go out and buy anything you can for your dad - clothing, radios, ANYTHING - and I didn't - mostly because my dad has everything he needs - and WHY are you telling me to go spend money on really unnecessary things? That's not how I do things. What I don't understand is - the nursing home has other cases pending as long as my dad's - they are not getting a dime from anybody. Unless there is a community spouse - why are these families not giving them every dime of the resident's NH? In the very early stages of the medicaid process - the caseworker even told me it's not necessary for me to be paying anything until the process is completed. WTH? I suspect that's why the NH is being so patient with me. I have given them every dime of my dad's money from the start. Sorry if I went off topic - I get very worked up on this issue. I think if just one of my family could have just given me an occasional lunch day or dinner with him - I could have kept him a little longer.

Oh, Emerald, so sorry - igloo does sound very knowledgeable but just have a question - what did happen with the money from the sale of dad's house?

Honestly - Not one person has given me any information close to what you have given me here. That goofy attorney I hired - got about 1/4 or more of the lowball auction he did on my dad's house plus some, and did nothing. I have been corresponding with the an assistant at Senator Kirk's office and atty knows that --- lately the attorney has been sending me unsolicited help in the way of forms, etc., without asking for money. Part of me wonders if he's concerned about his practices. If I had had an ounce of emotional energy left at that time, I would have sold the house for what it would have rightfully sold for - and given every penny to the NH. About that time tho I had just given some thought to just ending all of it. After 3 years of that close time with just me and my dad, I was so attached like he was my child and it was unbearable. There won't be any worry about sympathetic pics of my dad - he doesn't even look like the guy that used to be my dad. I'm seeing one of my psychologists tomorrow, I have a psychiatrist too that I have seen for 23 years (I have several issues leftover as a result of brain tumor that leaves me prone to anxiety and depression) - he's pretty ready to get involved. Doesn't actually fear that I would make a deliberate attempt to hurt myself but trying to escape the intensity of some of this, I'd be one of those accidental people. Right after my brain surgery I had some issues with dissociative feelings - the best way I can describe it is that I felt like I was in some suspended animation - like my body was dead but my soul was here wandering until it knew where to go. VERY scary. Most of that is under control but at times seeing my dad in the condition he is in now - I have those surreal feelings. I might be able to even have one of those two go with me. We have legal aid here - I will be contacting them tomorrow. The opportunity to see my dad without worry would be a godsend - I go in there with my head buried in shame because I can't just pay the bill. It's been eating me alive for years now. Thank you again. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the information you've provided.

you have dpoa for dad right? if so, I'd asap - like mañana - start calling pro-bono legal clinics on behalf of your dad. All law schools will have them and also call your Area on Aging to see who in private practice does them for elderly. The AoA is a part of your Council of Governments which is a regional planning body and clearinghouse for a lot of joint fed/state/private programs. All states have COGS paid for by your tax dollars. There will be someone to help you. You kinda imho need someone to go with you to the hearing as you're probably not able to get your situation or point across clearly. They can get a handle on the timeline of this clusterF that makes sense and that you were not out for your own gain. Really if anyone was it was Sissy who gained - take copies of those certified letters too.

You need a letter from the medical director @ the NH as to dad's status and that he needs 24/7 care or death will happen to take to the hearing.

You need to show some fiduciary duty too…..like that you have done whatever to have dad pay in a timely manner his co-pay (or his SOC - share of cost in Medicaid speak) to the NH from him SS & retirement income. Also do a sheet showing how you pay for his extras ( those $ 100 items you mentioned) & again in a a timely manner. Take some photos of dad & seriously he needs to look pitiful in the shots. Waivers on transfer penalties are done, there's a couple on this site in the past who have gotten them but you need someone to be your ally in the presentation as you are just going to be too emotional and flustered. You want to look presentable at the hearing but nothing expensive and sensible flat shoes and no dangling or moving jewelry (think Penny's rather than Macy's)

You know ward of the state situations sometimes are for the best - the court appointed guardian doesn't want family to be out of their life (unless there was abuse) but family need to realize that the guardian is in charge. Often court appointed is done because family cannot due to their own medical issues or due to military deployment. And if the situation can change, then sometimes the guardian will ask the court for a review & release of their status so the elder goes back to family oversight. If you can show PTSD or whatever else of your own medical situation & your spouses death so it's bolsters your case that what happened was not for your gain but just done in overwhelming panic.

About the payment rate, if you want dad to stay in this NH & it seems that this NH really likes dad (like his care plan is easy for them to accomplish), they often will negotiate down what is due to be what Medicaid would reimburse them with a smallish surcharge. Also I'd look to see IF dad could qualify for hospice - hospice is paid for by Medicare and although it does not pay for their room & board costs at the NH, it does provide for extra nursing staff to come in and provide care for dad. This can be a huge plus for the NH as it takes all the care responsibility off of their staff and shared now with hospice. My mom was on hospice for 18 months and really the hospice staff (3 X a week for an aide & RN once a week) worked well with NH staff…mom was never clearer or had better care of her bedding due to hospice being there to help out. Plus hospice provided for a specialized mattress and gerichair & geribathing chair, which made it easier for all to care for her.

About the "not very nice places", the guardian can often get things done in short order & faster than family ever would. If the guardian has other clients at the facility, they are going to do whatever to keep the guardian (and not have a report sent to the state as to delinquencies) happy so the elder benefits. You could find that dad being a ward, gives you the opportunity to spend time with dad but without worry about how things are being paid or reported. Good luck & try to keep an even keel.

Right now I know that there is a balance of about $47,000 - he's been there two years. I'm mostly certain that they are billing at the private pay rate and not the medicaid rate. When I got notice of the assessed penalties - the only thing I could even understand on it (there were conflicting handwritten notes on two different parts of the form), they gave a specific date of November 2016 before they would begin paying anything. The administrator at the NH did not understand their forms either and she sees them all the time. I know the monthly bill is around $4,700 but we can only come up with half. He's the only family I have left, if they start shuffling him around and in not very nice places, I won't make it. I feel like I made these mistakes (honestly there was no way I could move back here and give up my job to be 24/7 with him without going bankrupt or losing my house). To know that my dad is being punished for my mistakes - more than I can deal with. I'd rather just die.

What is likely to happen is that dad will get a " 30 day notice", he gets it, you as his point person gets it and probably your local aging ombudsman within the Area on Aging gets it. State DHHS also. If you do nothing to establish a payment plan (you sign a contact to be financially responsible), then NH gets probate judge to issue an emergency ward of the state status for dad. So dad totally under states purview with state appointed guardian. NH could allow for him to stay & be ok with his ward status IF their bed rates are low (the NH has low occupancy). But usually guardian moves the ward to another NH and likely one that the guardian has other clients at. You are outside of any decision making for dad.

It's a tight spot to be in but often best if there is just no way to work out the amount due to NH and all appeals to transfer penalty have been declined or rule not in your favor. Your legal sounds inept for Medicaid compliance but most elder lawyers are approached by families to do whatever for asset protection which can be in conflict with medicaudvrules if they can't stay at home for 5 years.

If none of them were NAELA certified, then I'd suggest you take all your old legal and schedule for a review of all by an NAELA attorney that does litigation.

Just out of curiosity, how many days of a transfer penalty? And how big of a NH bill does dad have so far? is NH billing him at the Meducaid reinbursement rate for room & board OR at a higher private pay rate?

Yes, my dad got out one night when my safeguards failed and my doctor told me that if I didn't place him, he would seriously consider placing me for depression and exhaustion. I'd already been seeing him before all this started for some ptsd type issues when I came home and found my husband had died unexpectedly. When the medicaid process started - I couldn't function mentally so I hired an elder care lawyer as I'd seen that on the boards and just needed someone to hold my hand. I was under the wrong impression and think it might have been a mistake to hire this guy. I wasn't there for asset preservation - I was just there to help me wade thru this process. Lawyer's don't understand that. So in the end I gave him all the info on my dad's assets including the house. He went to work auctioning it and got his own nice fees on top of the retainers (which we quickly extinguished) as he made himself closing agent as well. Dispersed those assets in a way he said was allowable and filed a bunch of affidavits for the money I needed to cover me the couple years before. In the end I had to take out a personal loan to pay him the $3,000 final bill as there was nothing left of my dad's. It turns out elder lawyers are more about preserving assets than they are helping with that process which is all I wanted. He got a bunch of money and we're nowhere near closer to fixing this after 2 years.

so did your dad have a house?

I had to move back from Denver to take care of my dad - for six months before I did, I was making one or two monthly trips back to St Louis to fix things that got messed up or misunderstood. I got in a big hole doing that and then his care went 24/7 and I had no way to work. He was aware at the time that I was paying some of my bills with his help and he was fine with it. But it wasn't until I was finally forced to put him in a nursing home that I found out you can do that ONLY if you get a caregiver contract BEFORE hand. Who would know that ahead of time? Everything was on fire when I moved back - had to get a renter out of my place, etc. and I just jumped in to take care of him anyway I knew how. Mostly just piecing and patching as we went along because I had no family to help. My sister took a chunk of money before that time and split. I can't even show where it was deposited because she will no longer accept certified mail from me. So they are assessing transfer penalties. I've used an elder attorney and he filed all kinds of affidavits during the process. He got more money than anybody did thru the whole thing - I ended up having to take out a personal loan to pay his final bills. I'm charging $100 a month for my dad's supplies. From my understanding and the state has a form for it - undue hardship waiver. It states that penalties that were assessed due to non-allowable transfers may be waived if denial of the benefits would cause potential loss of life, food, shelter, clothing, etc. My dad doesn't even know who he is anymore, can't speak an intelligible sentence, spoons are sometimes a challenge, incontinent, etc. He didn't know who I was a whole year before I placed him. I swore I would never do that until the time came he didn't know it was me taking him there or until the time came he wouldn't beg to be taken home. I just couldn't do that - things got really bad.