Are threats allowed when a POA is shared?

Oo. Not good. You've got bereavement in here, too, twice: she buried her son in September? Ouch. And the relationship with your poor dad… Well, all I know is that my lovely mum who I love to bits and pity like anything was a useless wife and a hopeless mother and spent 46 years complaining about how horrible my father was - but when he died? Different story. People are complicated, and what you see of them isn't always what's really going on in their heads and hearts. I'm just saying.

If your brother has your mother certified incompetent he still can't revoke your POA. Only your mother can do that, and only - ironically enough - while she is competent. The record keeping/accounting is required by law whether or not it's you specifically who asks to see it. You have every right to ask, but even if you didn't want to he would still have to do it. If he continues to make a mess of it the authorities can - I can't remember the term - unappoint him, anyway. If that happens, and it's a joint - as opposed to "joint and several" - POA the entire thing fails and your mother's lawyer or similar professional would have to be appointed (very expensive).

I think I'd be more worried immediately about your mother's mental/emotional wellbeing. You are perfectly entitled to speak to her doctors as her next of kin. Is it possible for you to visit? - any friends near your brother's home you could stay with for a week or so? She's just endured bereavement (you too, of course, my condolences: even though it sounds complicated, I'm still sorry for your loss), change of home, she's entering on dementia (at least) - there's an awful lot to deal with there. And now on top of all that the one thing you know for sure she didn't want to happen - you and your brother's cat and dog act - is happening around her, and she can't even go home to get away from it. She must be very, very unhappy. Ask her doctors if they can suggest anything.

Honestly, I do understand how sickened you must feel. I'm the caregiver, and my three older siblings - without meaning to, but - give me such a hard time sometimes that I secretly but earnestly wish I didn't have any. But please please do try to improve diplomatic relations with your brother and sister-in-law. You don't have to be best buddies, but if you can manage brisk and professional at least it won't be so upsetting for both you and your mother. Hope it all begins to fall into place, rather than comes to a head, very soon. Best of luck xxx

wow lots of reading here, I am printing this out to run it past my husband. Mom was declared competent in Sept.2013 . she redid her will and put it 50/50 we have Durable POA both my brother and I. When I was at her home following my younger brothers funeral in Sept. she told us she didn't want us fighting and she carried on like she was capable of much more than she let on. Three days after I left my brother had to drive to CT to get her as she was flipping out and crying and carrying on and since then she's been in NY at my brothers home. She was told she could stay there and he'd take her home one day, he takes her home 2 times a month and she said they are always around her. She wants to be alone but we've noticed that her mind is worse than it was in Sept. He took it upon himself to find new doctors for her and tend to her. He never asked me he told me and he claims she was ok with it, as I said, she will yes him to death and not stand up to him. To me she cries and tells me she wants to go home and feels like she is in a prison in my brothers house. I don't tell him that, I just mentioned that she is bored and I am concerned that she is unproductive. She doesn't want to come to Florida, so I no longer ask,I feel if she wants to spend time with me she' d let me know. I know her rights about her money. When she talks to me, she says I think I made a mistake and gave him money, When I talk to him he says Oh mom wanted me to have it.. like I said, she yes's him to death in order to avoid an outburst. I do understand what you meant Country Mouse by bringing up baby details of who didn't like whom. This I wouldn't do. I did question the lawyer who hasn't answered yet, if they take her $ aren't they supposed to prove to me in receipts what it's used for. I know mom can do what she wants, but my concern is if she says she felt a mistake was made in giving him the money then it becomes my concern, he and his wife are the type that only wear designer clothing , new cars every 2 yrs and borrow from every relative and never pay back.. The POA does state that whomever is taking charge must inform the other which he doesn't do. I know and was told already here that it's too soon to get mom declared incompetent because we just had her declared for competent. I do like the idea of calling the orginal lawyer and explain the situation to him and even if it costs money to send us both a letter reminding us of our responsibilities. My brother has always been very violent and aggressive. He drinks as well. He claims it's because of his stressful job. My mother said jokingly one day it's because of his controlling wife.lol Others tell me to give it up and let them spend away and let the mountain fall on top of them. That one day mom will become such a headache and then they'll say it's my turn and that's the day I can request all the bank records, receipts etc..and if nothing matches then she can go to a home and the state can take over. I am not after her estate, I just know how hard my father worked to come that far and he died way too young to let his work and savings go down the drain. And now I'm the black sheep because I had mentioned several critical things that may arise out of taking care of mom and what could happen with the state , bills , etc.. My brother takes everything too easily..and should I see the funds dwindle and mistakes happening, I might step back and have myself removed from POA. too risky as dogabone said, the state will want records of spending. @GladImhere, I wanted my mom to come to Florida and get her strenght back but they were there first and more demanding than I was. Her doctors have no idea what is going on, they have located new dr's for her on Long Island. all new strange faces which upsets her again. But if you ask her in front of my brother she will deny it all. I will wait to see if an attorney from Ct answers my email. If not I will watch from the background. they are bound to mess up.. I don't know if I want to call my mom ..she has hurt me a lot since this all went down. She lies and for that she has a clear mind. The last 35 yrs she wasn't the best mom or wife. she just was in it for my dads money. he's gone she got all happy, only my younger brother died and she and he were tight.. she pushed my POA brother and I away for many many years. one unhappy dysfunctional family. I am better off alone and without them that's for sure. if they need the money then they should all choke on it. thanks for listening everyone...

Have you thought about moving mom to Florida. If she just changed POP's she certainly can make the decision to live in a warmer climate. There must be many beautiful assisted living and memory care facilities in your area. You could as co-POA request a discussion with her doctor and ask for a recommendation to move to a facility in a warmer climate. Brother would have to abide by doctor recommendation to say nothing of mom's wishes.

I apologize for adding so many of my posts in responce to your thread.Many questions need to be answered inorder to give the proper answers to best help you and your brother in regards to your Mother.
(1):Main question is,Is your Mother competent or not?
(2):What type of POA do you and your Brother have?Is it a Durable POA or not?
(3):Who is the executive or executives of the Living Will or Trust?
(4):Who is acting as caregiver of your Mother?(You or your brother?)
(5):Your Mother lives where?With you or your brother or lives home alone?
(6):Who handles her funds as shopping,accounting?(You or your brother?)
(7):Who takes her the her Doctor appointments?(You or your brother?)
I can go on with other questions but,those above need to be addressed so we all can help you with answers.
The (1) question above needs to be answered first before all others.As is your mother competent or not?
If your Mother is competent .She can do what she see's fit to do with her money.All and all it is her money.She's allowed to give one $10,000 gift to anyone once a yr.That's her option & right to do while competent to do so.If your Mother is competent?There's not a thing you can do.And if your after any money from your Mother's $700,000 estate?You beter be asking Mother for money now before brother takes Mother to a doctor to be incompetent .
All you or your brother needs to do is,
Get your Mother's Will changed.
Change/revoke a POA.
After both are done above take your Mother to a doctor to be told she is incompetent.
After all that above is done.A POA and Living Will can not be changed or altered.
Bassically,it's timing as who will do it first you or your brother?
Bassically,all you have to do is do this before your brother does.But,requires your Mother's approval to do so.Only your Mother can fire a POA.Papers must be signed to do so by your Mother and only if your Mother is competent .

My guess is your brother will soon take your Mother to the Doctor to make her not competent.If he does that.It's all done in stone.
My guess is,first he will have the Will changed and then your POA revoked.Your Mother is the only person that can do this if competent.After your Mother changes the Will and removes you as POA then all he has to do is take your Mother to her Doctor to state incompetent.Job's done.

Recap,
Is your Mother competent?If so,she can spend how she desires.
If your Mother isn't competent then you have something on your brother.If that is the case you need to report your Brother to Medicaid.It all depends on if your Mother is competent or not?
Regardless,when it come down to your Mother going into a nurcing home.Medicaid will search & seek for all funds now and spent.Someone will be told to count for what funds are missing/spent without a cause.If your POA as well as your brother you should be able to ask her bank for bank statements for proof of spending.Are you both Durable POAs or Springing POAs?That makes a difference.Read the POA paperwork to find out.Durable is funds and Spring is when your Mother is not competent anymore and takes effect after she is not competent to do so.If your Bother is spending Mother's Money wrong?He better be covering his Butt.Every penny must be accounted for thru Medicaid.

I don't blame you for being livid. That's the first thing.

Now then. Your brother needs for his own sake to stop doing this. Every cent of your mother's money has to be accounted for. As POA he is responsible for ensuring that happens. That means receipts, budgets and all the rest of it; whereas this sounds like a proper pickle.

I think if I were you I would go back to the firm, preferably the individual, who arranged the joint POA for you and get relevant advice. Unfortunately, let alone the worry about your mother, you can't do nothing because you could end up in the frame too, theoretically at least. Your mother won't have capacity for ever, and then you too could have a lot of explaining to do.

Now then (I am going to speak firmly here, apologies in advance). When you put the facts that are worrying you in front of the lawyer, concentrate on explaining what he needs to know to advise you on how best to proceed. This means, do not tell him (for example) that you have known for 23 years that your sister in law is only in it for the money. Such accusations can be truthful, of course, but I'm guessing that you would have a very hard time proving this one. And anyway, where does it get you? Maybe do a draft of what you plan to say and cross out anything that sounds emotive or (God forbid) potentially actionable.

So. Get legal advice. You need to tackle the money. Make sure your lawyer takes on board how vulnerable your mother's position is, because even while she has capacity it isn't ok for her to be coerced. Be careful: you do also need to allow that she may well choose quite freely to spend her own money on the house she's living in, give the children presents and so on (maybe she's prepared to forget and forgive the children's earlier attitude); and if these gifts are easily within her means and she knows what she's doing… then it's up to her. It's a fine line to draw: draw it on the generous side, don't get upset about everything that even hints at exploitation, it won't help.

Another thing: don't discuss money with your mother. It probably does upset her, and you don't need her to give you details. Your brother needs to start keeping receipts, and to get together some kind of record of the monies already spent. He is going to find himself in very hot water if he doesn't start making a habit of this.

Take a pause for breath. Speak to your lawyer. It may be that the advice will be a warning shot to your brother reminding him of his responsibilities and suggesting how he could meet them. Avoid getting combative at this point (don't let the lawyer do so, either; remember your mother is the principle client, not you); any letter should offer constructive counsel, not threats.

Hmmmm… an idea occurs to me, but I've no idea whether it's practical or not: I wonder if your mother's lawyer might write to you and your brother, underlining your responsibilities as POAs. Then you'd both be told in no uncertain terms what you need to do, and you'd both know that the other knew too.

You see, your brother probably doesn't really feel that he's done anything wrong. A bit dodgy, perhaps, but not actually wrong. His mother's well off, he's got bills to pay, why shouldn't she want to help? I'm just suggesting how he might see it. I agree his methods don't go even half way towards the ideal; but you're aiming to stop him being so very defensive that he actually gets aggressive, as he is doing at the moment.

As soon as you possibly can, put up with having your calls monitored and ring your mother anyway. Otherwise she'll be miserable. You need to reassure her. Just chat about what you've been up to, and ask her how she's doing generally. If she herself brings up the subject of money or other disagreements, tell her "don't worry, I'll talk to [Jack & Jill] about it; we'll get it all sorted. Really, don't worry." (or your own words to that effect).

You see, what you're having to deal with - and it must be wretched, I really feel for you - is an atmosphere where suspicion on both sides has got way out of proportion. And suspicion (yours of your brother and his wife is understandable, but that's not the point) doesn't have to be rational to be toxic. That's why they don't want you talking to your mother or seeing her unsupervised. It'll take time to get better, but with luck and hard work… you never know. I certainly hope it's much too early to start thinking you'll never see her again!

Please update, I really hope you can turn this around. xxx

Look online for your state for dos and don'ts of a POA.
As POA your not allowed to charge services for acting as POA.That includes,barrowing,gifting,donating or charging fees or ect.If you do any of these actions your POA will and can be revoked.As POA your job is to keep track of funds on record of every penny spent.If your Mother would ever go into a nurcing home?Medicaid will take over and do a investigation of your Mother's funds.If any funds are not counted for ,the POAs will be charged for that amount of money missing.
So,if your Mother is telling you that she is giving your brother Money?Or if your brother is barrowing money from Mother?His POA needs to be revoked.Because,he is not allowed to barrow any money from your Mother as her POA.As POA your not allowed to accept a gift from your Mother.Why?because,your her POA that's why.Question remain's is your Mother competent?
If your Mother is competent?She is allowed to do what she want's to do with her money.If she wants to give a gift/funds to anyone?She's competent to do so.But,if you and your brother are acting as her POA and accepting gifts/money?Both of your POAs need to be revoked.Reason,it's your job as POAs to record all funds spent.POAs are not allowed to accept gifts/money from their Mother."Say NO" to your Mother is how it's done,hard to sat but,it's your job as POAs to do so.If your Mother is not competent?100% no POA can barrow,gift or accept gifts/funds.That money of your Mother's?Is your Mother's Money to be saved & used when your Mother needs to go into a nurcing home or when Medicaid needs to be involved.When,you and your brother agreed to act as your Mother's POAs?You both accepted that job and what is involved in it.After your Mother's passing both POAs are then void.If no living Will,after creditors are paid remaining estate goes to the next of kin "Oldest".You state your Mother has a Living Will.With that said,explains why you and your brother aren't getting along.Both are defending their place in the Will.Using the Will as reason the fight towards one another.Are you both executors of the will?Who ever is the executor of the will is the one incharged.Your Mother can fire both of you as her POAs at anytime she feels as long as she is competent.I don't mean to sound harsh to you just explaining things is all.You can't fire your brother as POA.That's your Mother's job to do so if she feels to.And your brother can't fire you either.You two need to get along and act together as one as POA.POA has nothing to do with a Living Will.
A living Will can be overided if another one is created.As newest Living Will will overide one another.As newest is "Main & Only".
But,POAs will can not overide another.
Living Wills is the number one cause,of family fighting.I've seen family members breaking into passing love ones homes the day they die steeling anything not bolted down.Wills or no Wills.Many attorneys prevoke elderly people to create Wills so the attorneys recieve their % at the end.You and your brother & Mother needs to seat down and talk together.As for items your Mother should give them now as not let the Will decide later.As for funds?Your Mother needs all her funds for a nurcing home & healthcare when it's time for that.How can your Mother devide her fund among you both now when she has not a clue the amount she will need for further healthcare.To me it sounds like you and your brother is fighting over the Will when your Mother is still alive.Using POAs as defence towards one another.Your both POAs over your Mother.And should both act as one together.Taking your Mother to another attorney isn't a smart idea to do.Your brother is POA as well as you.He can state your Mother isn't competent to change a thing and get you in contempt of your POA.Your both your Mother's Attorneys.Two attorneys fighting among one another is a fight neither one of you will win.And a waste of Mother's Money to go to another attorney.Everthing boils down to what your Mother wants to your two.Your Mother I'm sure wants you two to get along.As not fighting.With this fighting among you and your brother is just making Mom see who's the greety one and who is not.If not both greedy during this time.Your Mother needs both of you Two.If your Mother didn't accept both of you?You both wouldn't be her POAs.
Best,

Hi CM, in response to your questions...the dwindling of funds..I noticed moms credit card was in the amount of $5300. When I asked why so high he said she had dental costs but they weren't that high, then he said for food, now mom is 76 eats like a chicken..and then he let it slip out that she pays for his family..now he has 3 grown children a wife and himself who eat like cows. My sister in law told me her food bill in the month can reach $1000. So putting 2 and 2 together I figured they've got her so far saying hey we feed you so you have to pay. Of course she is so far to yes everything. then when I spoke to her she said she gave him money fora broken garage door( which his ins. should of paid for as it was due to last years storm) and then she almost cried when she said I think I gave him $5000 for a new driveway. I asked what has those 2 got to do with your health and support. And then she said oh and I gave him my CC to use to buy the boys (20 & 17) a basketball hoop and it cost several hundred. I flipped out as those kids never had a kind word or moment for her in 13 yrs. Thats when he flipped on me and every colorful word came out of his mouth telling me, if I mention $ again he is taking her to a new lawyer and getting her to sign everything in his name ..mind you I am concerned because my dad worked hard and they managed to save close to $700,000. So yes I am mad and concerned. I am sure he meant 3 days to settle her down, but it's only because he comes to the phone constantly screaming at the top of his lungs, so she sits there hears that and shakes, and he gets her to blame me after we've had a lovely conversation about her past, her parents etc.. I have tried to talk calmly to my brother but he is so stressed , my mom has told me several times he plays the bully to me, and then when his wife is around she controls the whole family. And we've known for 23 yrs that she is only in it for the money. My parents disliked her for years, but now my mom is not allowed to say a thing. I know the law says if she says yes to things they will abide by what she says. My husband and father in law want me to back down and let it all fall in his lap. and if I inherit nothing so be it. Mom could of spoken up when she had the chance. My concern is that I know I probably will never see her again as I am in Florida and she is up north..my brother and wife will never allow me to be alone with her ...because they fear I will get her to sign things over to me. And sometimes I think maybe I should, but once she gets returned it will happen again..so its not fair to use up good money for that and to use mom that way. Right now I am too upset to even call her to see how she is doing as I was told all calls will now be monitored. This means once the phone rings in the house a signal goes automatic to their cells and they can hear the actual conversation. Isn't that insane?
I surely will wait for now, I did contact another lawyer in moms home town, she hasn't answered yet, she probably fell off the chair reading the nonsense..lol I do down the line want a welfare check done because it's not fair to keep her in a house alone. In 10 minutes an accident can happen.I thank you so much for always taking the time to read and answer my posts. Like so many others out here I feel like a lost soul till I get here and strangers have kinder words than family. I don't have the energy to fight , I'm getting old..lol have a wonderful day, and thank you all for your time and input..

It slightly depends on what you mean by "dwindling her funds." Even if he's not misappropriating, he still needs to account for what's happening to her money; and more to the point you, as her joint POA, have a duty to monitor it. So it's not good enough for him to get nasty about it: hey, you're just toeing the POA line by asking.

She may have capacity, in which case she can of course give your brother any monies that she wishes; but it will still be noted that she is in a vulnerable position and therefore prone to coercion. Nothing to stop you seeking advice from a specialist lawyer meanwhile, is there? Or, indeed, going back to the same lawyer who drew up the POA and explaining that things are not working out too well - what would s/he advise?

By "3 days to re-program her" he may not have meant anything more sinister than "settle her down" again. Bear in mind that he's the one who has to cope with the day to day dramas: you may not approve of how he goes about it, and if you have constructive suggestions you should always feel free to put them to him; but don't be a back-seat driver.

As your mother's AD progresses, she won't be able to be left alone all day. I think in your position I'd work hard to get back onside with my brother, because otherwise you'll find it more difficult to help your mother in the future. Good luck, I appreciate how worrying and upsetting all this must be for you. xxx

This is a dreadful situation, but as you mentioned, it's only been three months since the POA was written so you may not get far. If you feel she wasn't competent then, you could get help from an elder law attorney.

Other than that, I'd keep a close eye on how your mother is treated. If she is alone too much when she shouldn't be, contact social services and ask for a welfare check. I'd keep the money out of it, but focus on your mother's health and well being.

Thank you for your kind heart,
Carol