My wife & I bought my 92 y/o Dad's house with the stipulation he could live with us as long as he wants, and that he was not to use his power tools in the house as my wife has problems breathing when saw dust in air. About 4 yrs ago, he lost balance & fell into the table saw and almost cut his fingers off. We came home 1 day after running errands & he was using the saw & planer, putting dust in air. Told him to stop, he refused. Wife said she would cut the cord. He threatened to kill her. He always carries a 357 revolver everywhere. Luckily, he had left it on the saw table when the confrontation began & I took it & hid it. I removed all guns from the house. For 2 weeks, he keeps asking for it back. He apologized & said he'd never hurt my wife, but I don't trust him.
You might want to discuss this with your local police, right now.
Does your Dad suffer from dementia? Does he have a history of violence?
Is there any missing information in this story that you can give me so that I can understand why you bought your Father's home, assuring him he could live in it for life (which was unrealistic assurance on the face of it)?
Is there some information you can give me that might help me understand your questioning whether to return guns to an elder who has already threatened the head of household with death by same?
Then make a choice between placating your father and having a wife.
I would see a lawyer asap about the stipulations in the sale document. Is this a "life estate"? Most life estates don't come with the condition that the person may remain in the home when they are a danger to themselves and others (which your dad is).
I would encourage you to remove all weapons, ammunition, power tools and sharp objects until you can get dad seen by a neurologist, geriatric psychiatrist or behavioral health team.
If he has an episode of rage and threatens, call 911, have him transported to the ER and tell them that he is no longer able to be safe at home. And that you and wife are in fear for your safety.
Eta, is dad ex-law enforcement, military or organized crime?
The Law and Order Elliot Stabler is all three of these things, or at least two. This franchise is now 22 years old. In less time than that, we could be dealing with the dilemma of how Stablers kids remove his gun and ameliorate his attitude lol
Dad needs to realize that its your house and he is being allowed to live there. Really, you should never have said he can live with you as long as he wants. It should always be a trial run. Once we become adults, on our own and making our own decisions, we really cannot live with our parents again. It works very rarely. We are different people than we were as their children and its hard for our older parents to separate the child from the now adult. And who has boundries of their own.
Just curious, does Dad have a permit to carry? If not, he shouldn't have it anyway. If he does have a permit, I would ask the police if threatening your wife with violence voids that permit. Good excuse he can't have it back, he voided the permit by threatening someone.
You are perfectly in your right to ban the gun from your house. Sometimes our roles are reversed, we become the parent, them the child.
No, it’s more like he has to adjust, just as he must with the power tools. Like you have long said, JoAnn, I’m not above a little threat, and especially if it’s true.
His issue is safety. He can’t have a gun in any of his living situations.
Is it just me?
So, you have your dad, whom you say you don't trust. living with you, armed, and he threatened your WIFE with a DEADLY WEAPON, which he "always has on him" and your question is "should I give dad back his gun?"
Your question should really be "what is the fastest way I can get out
of this house, because dad is a danger to me and my spouse?"
But since your question is "should I give dad back his gun?" - ah, no. You should not give dad back his gun. I would think this would be kind of obvious. If what you're actually looking for is "permission" to NOT give dad's gun back from a bunch of anonymous strangers, I wholeheartedly give you permission and a blessing to get any and all firearms out of the house. And bear in mind, that a gun is not the ONLY dangerous item in the house.
Dad wasn't actually in possession of the firearm when he told her he would kill her if she destroyed his tools.
Law enforcement isn't going to do anything to either of them. We live in a country that words don't get you in trouble, only the actions you take.
Dad still sees this as his house and home. So everyone needs to stop with the threats.
Find a way for dad to use his power tools. Get him a shed with a dust collection system, they're easy and cheap. Set up the garage or something. It's obviously what he enjoys doing.
Sorry, I personally don't believe almost counts. So what, he almost cut his fingers off, he didn't. I worked in the steel industry for decades and people of ALL AGES got injured using the tools and equipment. It's life, stuff happens, we don't hide in a hole because something almost happened. If we did, NONE of us would ever drive again.
Everyone in the home matters. Find a solution to the problems instead of making one persons issues the most important thing.
Obviously, you don't let dad have access to the firearms if you truly believe he is a threat. However, he wouldn't have had to kill her if she cut through a power cord, she would have electrocuted herself.
This is why I think buying a parents house is a really bad idea. It never stops being theirs in their mind.
But I do like the idea of having dad pay to have a workspace detached from the house where he can work on his projects without all the dust affecting the wife.
Although I am a firm defender of the rights of elders (and not just assuming because they are old they should be denied their rights and property) I would most likely remove the threat of gun violence by removing the firing pin on the gun. I assume dad does not go to the range anymore or travel independently (which would allow him to detect and get the firing lin fixed).
Good luck. I found similar situations difficult to deal with; both legally and emotionally.
You know your dad. You know his personality and temperment. All things you should have taken into account before making this living situation and agreement. I would not give him his gun back.
Things can happen in a split second and the heat of the moment and since your dad has already shown his irrationality in threatening to kill your wife it would be foolish to give him back that gun.
Most murders are committed by someone the person knows.
Should you give him a gun? No, and h*ll no!
FYI I can put links here to news reports of several shootings and murders from my home state perpetrated by very senior people against their live-in family members and roommates. Not worth the risk. I wouldn't care if dad gets pissed off. He threatened to kill you. Not the words of a rational person, no matter who instigated what. FYI my own SFIL threatened to shoot us - he had Parkinsons and Lewy Body Syndrome. I can't remember why he was angry but he did have a shotgun and handgun in the house, which we removed on the advice of social services who would NOT provide services or enter the home unless it was made safe. Anyone who comes into the home of an impaired senior with a firearm is knowingly being put at risk. Please do not give it back to him under any circumstances or contrition by him.
His wife was wrong to say she was going to cut the power cords. But to then escalate a threat of destruction of property to a threat of physical violence with a weapon - especially in a domestic-type situation - is not something that should be shrugged off and/or ignored. Especially when the OP has stated he doesn't "trust" dad. That to me signifies there might have been earlier issues between dad and OP/wife.
Frankly, I'm licensed to carry concealed, have been for years, because of work, But I don't carry my gun with me 24/7. And my first thought if I were in an argument with someone in my family would NOT be to threaten to shoot them!
In this case, if dad is still mentally competent, threatening to shoot OP's wife is not an appropriate response to what happened. If you're a responsible gun owner, you should consider your firearms to be used to protect your life or the life of someone else, not as a response to vandalism of some tools. which is what the OP's wife threatened. And if dad is starting to show signs of cognitive decline, then it's probably not the smart thing to leave him armed with the hope his decline isn't and won't become bad enough that he can't recognize a real threat from an imagined one.
As Ann said, if you even need to ASK this question, the immediate answer to yourself should be no. And if OP doesn't trust dad to not harm him or his wife, they should NOT be living with dad, whether or not they are providing care. Because removal of the guns is not a guarantee of the removal of the threat of physical violence...lots of other items in a house that can be used as a weapon.
A question for you. Did you buy the house for Fair Market Value? You need to see an elder law attorney if the answer is NO. This would cause dad problems when trying to qualify for Medicaid.
If that isn't possible (and I don't know why it wouldn't be possible) you take the gun to a gunsmith - have the firing pin removed and request any other disabling actions that can be taken. Once that is done, remove all ammunition from the house.
Get rid of the guns and the ammo, that's plain common sense. Anyone, with or w/o cognitive impairment, who threatens to KILL another person must be disarmed, period.
Plus, given his history with power tools and 'almost cutting his fingers off', it doesn't seem wise to allow him to use power tools EITHER.
Again, the cognitive test will give you a good idea of where he's at, mentally, and what power tools he should or should not be playing with. If he's prone to violence or temper fits (which is also common with dementia), knives and scissors should also be removed from the home or kept under lock and key, I'm not kidding. You DO NOT want to find out if dad is 'capable' of using one of those items as a weapon in a fit of fury one day. Also, if he's refusing to play by the rules of not using power tools due to the dust factor (which he originally agreed to), that right there is a reason to have him stop using them, remove them, sell them, etc. It's comparable to allowing a young child access to dangerous things; would you do that? No, of course not. Allowing a mentally compromised elder access to those things is akin to allowing a young child access to them: not a wise idea.
Good luck!
The gun is your father's property. On what legal basis have you deprived him of it?
I know absolutely nothing about licensing or any other related laws where you are, but it seems to me that if you want to take the gun away on the grounds that he poses a risk, whether to other members of the household, himself, or the general public, there must be formal steps to be taken. Otherwise you've plain stolen it.
You have a wider set of problems which you and your wife and your father had better thrash out for the sake of future harmony, namely that the restrictions which he agreed to are apparently not ones he finds he can live with. I don't know - is there anywhere else he can do his pottering? A workshop or garage, for example? What on earth is he making that needs a saw and a planer, come to that - is he a joiner by trade, or something?
Pretty feckin' impressive for a 92 year old, I have to say, but could he be encouraged to take on less ambitious projects with less demand for terrifying kit? I treasure the walnut salad bowl my neighbour's uncle turned for me on his lathe at a similar age.
No permits, no licenses.
This sounds like an ill-conceived living arrangement from many points of view, and as I suggested originally, get yourselves to a lawyer and get dad an accurate assessment of his cognitive state.
NO you do not give the gun back.
Is there even a reason for him to carry a gun with him everywhere? (not even going to ask if he has a valid FOID card or if he is legal when he carries it)
If you do not trust him that is reason enough not to return the gun.
I hope you have it in a safe.
As to the gun,, when my dad threatened my mom,, the gun and ammo were GONE. They stayed gone. And I never felt a moments guilt
If the elder has dementia then he could not transfer the house. If he has dementia then he should be diagnosed which opens legal options for getting rid of the gun but may threaten the real estate "purchase".
I find the wife's threatening statement to be totally inappropriate and bullying. What reaction would you expect from the 92 year old home owner (of at least a life estate as described).
I don't know how a 92 year old hauled a table saw into the house to begin with, because that is where the gun was. Hmmm? Maybe, just maybe he wasn't even in the house.
I don't think the "story" of what happened has been accurately conveyed.