Offering room with all included isn't part of the payment for care?

I tell you how it's working for me. One caregiver conned her and stole her, she was paid minimum wage for only a few hours a day just to clean and make some company. She took all her retirement money and was preparing to get more by manipulating her, isolated her from everyone with lots of BS turning everyone against each other, also, MIL had many "unclear" health issues that sent her to the hospital while that caregiver was taking care of her, and now doesn't have any of those "unclear" problems, like dizziness, confusion, vomiting and so on...

Another one stole her jewels, probably one from the agency to who I pay really well per hour. But paying this agency well isn't equal to quality, because they worked part of the time they were hired for, barely clean and jewels disappeared since they came. Them or the live-in we hired later.
All she had to do was to take care of her hygiene, and the medication twice a day, give her breakfast and be around in case she needed something - EVERYTHING ELSE was done by me: taking her to doctors, shopping, cooking, house cleaning.
She had free everything, room with a view, she could take time out in the afternoon just as long as she was available in case, not like an emergency doctor. And I paid her minimum wage, she asked less - under the table, because she told me social security could not know she was working.
I picked her at the station (far) and the same day she needed the day off, to settle in. Ok. Next day, after dinner, she started complaining this was too much, she couldn't do it for any money in the world, because she's also a sick woman. I said Fine, you can leave. All the sudden, she added "it's not enough money", I said Fine, we're willing to pay you the double, but if you can't do it because you're sick, then it's best to leave and I'll find another person. So she changed to "I never said I couldn't do it! Don't twist my words!" and then complained again that she couldn't do it. After 20 minutes yelling, being rude, saying and unsaying, I said: If you can't decide, I decide for you, you leave tomorrow. So she started another rambling speech how I was cold, and mean, and she couldn't pay for the ticket, and she had to borrow money to get here. I said FINE, I'll pay for both tickets and drop you at the station (Far). Oh she started crying she couldn't go back, her family was mean to her, she was living with her sister, and she demanded her to put some bread on the table, because they could no longer afford her being there: "she's a leach". So I said FINE! you stay one month, you can search for a job here so you don't have to go back....you know what she did?

This woman was NEVER around. NEVER. She went for a coffee in the morning, came home to lunch, helped MIL change diapers (she does it alone, just needs to be watched), left for a walk, came home for dinner. Did her hygiene, went to her room, and said "call me when you need to go to bed". She was here to eat and sleep.
Many times, I had to take MIL to doctors or visiting home care facilities, we arrived late for lunch or dinner, and the woman either wasn't at home, meaning I had to help MIL changing, run to the grocery shop, run home to cook for BOTH of them. The woman could not call me while we were out to ask if there was something she could do - a very occasional favor just so we could all eat on time. She went out every morning, she could never bought bread (paid by us, of course), when she ate lots of bread ("I love bread!" she said), she also threw entire meals to the garbage, because she didn't like it, and she had hearth issues when it was time to work, but drank 5 coffees a day and smoked a lot - inside the house even when we said not to, please!!!!
In the end, she left a week before agreed, because she found something back in her town, giving me less than 24h to find someone, and asked me to take her back to the station. First I said ok, then I thought how stupid I was being, I said no, you'll take the bus - she threaten to punch me!
I went to home care facilities they ask  2xMW for a shared room smelling like urine as I said. Her retirement here is a lot, compared to the majority. It's 2x the minimum wage - not many people earn that and yet all she can afford is this? She has house bills to pay, so no it's not going well, but paying fairly or unfairly I get the same result.

If I pay 4000 then she pays for the room, food, and her consumption. Fair enough? Because that's what everyone else does: we work and pay for our house and bills.

Also 1300 was an example. I'm trying to make this post universal. MW is different in every country. So 2xMW+NO EXPENSES+2 days OFF is a lot for just hygiene and being around.

Let's break that down.

$1300 a month is about 306 per week. (4.25 weeks in a month). For a live in job. So by day.. $48 per day! That is less than 3 hours of pay per day! Really?

I am amazed you find anyone even willing to consider such a paultry amount. Yeah..throw in the room and board...let's say that is really worth another 1300 per month...that brings the pay up to 98 per day! Anyone here willing to do the job for that much?

The bigger question is why would you insist on being so cheap? And..how is that working for you? Consider the quality you are hiring at that incredibly low wage.

I'd say if you can find someone willing to work 24/7 (or anywhere close to that!) for $1300 a month, you're getting a good deal. That's less than $45 per DAY. Assuming that person ONLY "works" a 40 hour week, that's $7.50 an hour, which is less than half of what any agency in my area would charge for the same work. Factor in that the helper's other living expenses are paid, I'd say that sounds about right. HOWEVER, we all know that a live-in caregiver HARDLY works a mere 40 hours a week. As mentioned above, they are on call even when they are sleeping. So, considering a 24 hour work day, you are paying less than $1.80 an hour. Again, if I hired the service we are currently using to stay 'round the clock, I would be paying a MINIMUM of $450 per DAY. You are paying less than 10% the going rate. I'd say that was a bargain!

We currently spend $1800 each month for 10 hours of ADL assistance (per week), 8 hours of housekeeping (per month), and 15 hours of driving/companion services (per week). If I could find someone of quality who was willing to LIVE with my in-laws rent free PLUS $1300 a month and provide ONLY what we are paying for now, they could eat all they wanted and watch cable TV the rest of the time, and we'd STILL come out ahead!! Heck!! I'd even install high speed internet for them!!

It's like people have already pointed out, it depends on the job description. Somebody who is merely a companion or does minor household cleaning and meal prep is totally different than someone who must supervise someone with dementia, help with ADL's, deal with incontinence and be on call 24/7. $10/hour for a 24 hour day is $240 per day. And people who are "on call" DO get paid for that, even if it is just a higher base salary and not per hour.
Bottom line is, if you find someone willing to work for what you are offering, great! If you can't find anyone, or if those you find are leaving you have to rethink your offer or lower your standards... it's called free enterprise, even the most loving, charitable people won't work unless it makes financial sense for them.

I already said that yes, they must have money aside from the house and all house bills paid, for their own stuff. They must have 2 days off, fine, they do have taxes paid, and anything related to MIL is covered: gas, parking, etc. They should have a salary, yes, I said that's fine, but 2x the minimum wage is too much.
Don't tell me that 2000 clean isn't enough to make a pretty nice life. So many people live with way less and work equally hard.
And they all ask 2xMinimum Wage no matter what they offer in return.
If I open my house to a stranger and pay for all their expenses, yes, I do expect something in return. I'm also paying something else for their personal expenses, don't tell me it's not enough or unfair.

I agree with Dorianne. What's going on with all the taxes that will be owed?

I see from your profile that your loved one that you take care of lives in their own home. Maybe that's not really possible anymore and they need to be in a facility?

Sorry, we must have cross-posted! But again I'd say - don't make the assumption that an employee doesn't have other expenses just because room and board is covered. We all have expenses beyond housing and food. And perks of the job like extra food or showers or heat can't be considered wages. It's up to the employer to set rules around these things.  Also consider how their government contributions are being paid, if the employer isn't paying them. 

If someone is underpaying employees, then yeah, they probably can expect to attract the kind of employee who slacks, steals, or takes advantage.

Violent behaviour should never be tolerated and the police should be called.

Edit:  this is Canadian (as am I), but it gives you an idea of what governments expect from employers of live-in caregivers.  www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/work-canada/hire-foreign-worker/caregiver-program/after-apply-next-steps

They can ask it probably because it's what their job is valued at on the market right now.

I would start figuring out what this job is really worth by asking how many hours per week the employee is expected to be available. Are they expected to be "on call" 24/7? Do they get days off where they can leave the patient/property? Many labour laws require employers to give employees 8 hours off between shifts - is the employee being given this, or are they still "on call?" Just because a worker isn't performing labour while they're sleeping (or doing other personal things), it doesn't mean they aren't working - if they are expected to be available to deal with issues as they arise, then they are working.

Then I would ask what the local minimum wage is and if they were earning at least that for their time. I'd ask if the employee is being paid appropriately for overtime (often, under labour laws, employees working more than 40 hours a week must be compensated with extra wages, say 1.5 - 2 x their hourly rate). I'd ask the same about statutory holidays. I'd wonder who was expected to pay their government contributions, such as unemployment insurance, pension, and worker's compensation. I'd wonder how their taxes were being paid and by whom. (Wages "in kind" are still considered wages - under tax laws the employee would be seen as paying room and board out of their taxable wages.)

The answers to these questions would be very important in determining what their work was worth.

Also, I'd be curious how an employee would pay their other expenses if they were ONLY paid in room and board, and weren't able to take a 2nd job because of their 1st job's requirements. Are their medical expenses paid by the employer? What about toiletries and other personal care needs? Transportation? Clothing? Personal cell phone? Does the employer contribute to their pension fund? What about travel to visit family? Will the employee have to ask for stamps to mail a letter?

Then I'd ask, is the employer still going to charge them for meals they don't eat, or refund that part of their wages to them? What if they don't watch TV or use the internet - will the employer refund that part of their wages? Just because something a perk of the job, it doesn't make it wages. What about water - are you saying access to water should be a part of their wages? That having a heated workplace, or a place of work with electricity, should be considered part of their wages? In what other workplace would that be true? Plus the employer is already providing those things for the patient, so they are not even perks, if they could be considered perks in the first place.

I think it's ok to consider room and board PART of their wage, but certainly not their whole wage. And a lawyer would certainly be able to sue an employer on an employee's behalf if they were only paid in room and board.

Personally, I think 1,300 as an example is a terrible wage, based on wages where I live. Minimum wage here is 11.65, which is just over 2,000 per month at 40 hours per week - not including any overtime or stat holidays. That's a counter clerk at McDonald's, or a retail worker at the Gap. Not somebody doing the stressful job of providing intimate care to my loved one.

They deserve to have money left in the end of the month for their personal things, I agree. I just don't think 1300, 2000, 5000 left is reasonable (any amount way above minimum wage is a lot for someone who doesn't have any expenses).

Also, there's no restrictions, there's no limit to want they consume. They could take several one-hour showers a day, snack every hour, turn the heat to tropical temperatures all year, make international calls, whatever. And never pay for any of that.
We in turn have to pay for all that while trust her.

What I see is a LOT of people taking advantage of the elderly. Because there's no alternative and they assume they're deaf, crazy and childish, they can charge whatever they like and there's always problems.

My MIL has been conned by her previous caregiver who got paid well to come a few hours a day and in the end took ALL her money; some jewels stolen by another caregiver, not sure if one of the ladies who came through an agency (who completely dismissed the situation: "we never had problems before"); and taken advantage of by a live-in caregiver who only came here for the house, barely worked, was always out, and threaten to punch me, not to mention the caregivers who barely do a thing - I have to clean after them, because they do the minimum or less. I'm not exaggerating.
And the agency charges a LOT by hour, paying miserably to the ladies who do very little and never stay the whole hour. I've also been visiting home care facilities and they charge a LOT for horrible conditions, they provide the minimum service, diapers not included, urine and dirty mop smell all over the place, dirty floors, bad light, small rooms, no activities, all day watching TV.
She has some money and this is what she can afford? I can't imagine what happens to someone with less money.
I'm mad!

Dear carenightmare,

I think all this depends on where you live in the country, the cost of living and the type of care that is required. Yes, its true that a live in caregiver is saving on some expenses, but they are also taking on more care. What is the agreed upon salary? Some people are willing to work for less and others less so. I know its not an easy issue.

Even as a daughter I paid all the bills and cared for my dad. In hindsight, even if I was paid for doing all that I did, I don't know if that makes up for the stress and daily routine of caregiving. Caregivers deserve a living wage even if they are living rent free. And time off too because we all know its not easy being with someone 24/7.