Anyone who works and lives on their own has to pay rent, food and all house bills (water, power, communications, heat...). That's a big part of any salary. Even a doctor who's well paid (supposedly) has to give part of his salary for his house, food and bills. Let's say someone earns 1300 a month, then pays rent (...700) then food (150) and bills (another 150). In the end of the month has 300 left.
I really don't understand how a live-in caregiver will ask for the same 1300 plus ALL expenses paid. It's 1300 left in the end of the month...It's a lot of money.
Don't get me wrong, I know it's a hard job, but it's still way too much money if the person - contrary to the rest of the population - doesn't have to pay for house, food, power, heat, internet, tv, water...
Why aren't these expenses considered in what they ask?
That is..a person who has only the interest to start arguments by throwing flames on the Internet
This person has no interest in any reasonable discussion...just throw flames
Stop feeding trolls
The whole issue with where does she live is just yet another way for her to perpetuate non-stop argument. Each and every post has served that goal... argue and throw flames
Your "opinions" were all respected as long as you answered my question, not when you threw a huge amount of judgmental assumptions and name calling.
You guys don't read before you answer, and jump to your wrong conclusions all sprinkled with name calling and moral judgment. That's the problem. Too judgmental.
I never said I didn't pay a salary above MW, and yet, everyone picked on Dorianne's comment and went on from there. And it kept going to "I implied this", "That's why she does that"...
You got all offended when I ended up comparing US caregivers to US nannies, since they have the same responsibilities, schedule and expected availability - which were your points (when you answered my question) - because then your arguments went down the drain: "cute little babies" vs "cranky smelly old people". Really?
Who devalues other people's jobs?! Me? Who trashes old people? Me? Who trashes members in this community when they don't agree with you? Me?
Jesus! I had to explain my job - you asked me! -, my relationship to these people - you judged! -, where I am from - You asked! -, how my country is - You kept searching! -, and you were all offended by my boyfriend and bashed him in the previous thread, when that was not the point, then got offended because I call my boyfriend's mother "mother in law", which a) it's easier and b) it's what she is to me, we're family (a child can't call the woman who dates her father a "mother" just because this community gets all offended because she's not the biological mother?), then got all offended because I'm not from USA, and showed your xenophobia, now I'm a troll?
This is a self pity community, that's what it is. Not a place to question.
You like to come here, cry, everyone calls you a hero and tell you're a very good person so you can feel good about yourselves. And we can see how good and understanding you all are, from xenophobia to name calling for every reason, to getting all offended because I take care of my family regardless of us being bounded by blood "It's your BF's problem!!! Run!!". No! We're family, we're humans, and this is everyone's problem.
Really?
"Where I live 1300 is 2xMW"
"gladhimhere: A Euro is $1.18 dollars. What third world countries use Euros?"
"carenightmare: Mine. MW here is in 16th place in europe" (as a reference)
CTTN5: "Why write that it's your MIL, when it's merely your bf's mother? You live in a poor European country? Then what we do here in the U.S. has no bearing on you, so please stop arguing with us. Argue with your bf. You know what you have to do...MOVE OUT."
"carenightmare: If I lived in Germany would it make a difference? No."
"meallen: Bulgaria? Only have stats for 2016"
"Meallen: Oh, I couldn't find your country on your profile. Where would I look, please."
"carenightmare: That's probably because we're not asked to say where we come from. I couldn't find yours either."
"carenightmare: No, it's not bulgaria and that is SOOOOOOOOOOO irrelevant "
"Meallen: I've given you data on Bulgaria, which as far as I can tell, is your country (it's not my fault you won't confirm or deny that)"
"carenightmare: I'm not from Bulgaria. I thought it would be super easy to know the country and it's not!! I SAID 16th!!!! ALL YOU NEED IS TO COUNT TO 16!!! - I DON'T CARE!!!! THAT IS NOT THE POINT!!! AT ALLLLL!!"
"meallen: And yes, where you live is relevant"
"meallen: Ah, Slovakia? The data is handled differently by different sources. I am sorry about that."
"carenightmare: Ok, nice job Meallen, so stop trying now. It's irrelevant."
Where and when did IIIII made a big deal about my country and where I live? Where?
To stick to the question: your caregiver receives what in the recruitment industry is called a package of "comps and bens" - compensations and benefits.
Compensations would include salary and bonuses, also things like share options in the loftier jobs.
Benefits would include things like, yes, room, board, use of a car, travel and subsistence allowances, health cover, gym membership, what have you.
And while we're at it, if you're in the EU then there will also be regulatory expenses - taxes, national insurance, possibly pension and sick pay provision too. And may I (illegally, strictly speaking, but) strongly recommend that you do not hire anyone young enough to get pregnant. Your country may not yet have statutory maternity pay and may still exempt private households from such employment regulations, but the times they are a-changin'.
So to calculate the value of the room, board, utilities and services your live-in caregiver will receive, average out the expense attached to an individual living in that particular household. Four people in the house, the bills came to €xxxxx over the last twelve months, divide by four, divide again by twelve for the monthly figure. Remember that these are approximations, not invoices. Remember too that if there were only three people in the house over the last twelve months, a fourth person will not increase all of the household expenses. Taxes, internet, standing charges and so on all remain the same. It might be fairer, when you are deciding on the room-and-board value, to include only those costs which are variable.
Then there is salary. I'm not sure that the minimum wage, below which the amount paid is literally criminal, is really the best benchmark to start from if you wish to attract candidates who like to look on themselves as professionals. You might consult instead a range of roughly parallel salary scales: for nursing personnel, health care assistants, hotel and catering staff, for example. Then consider what qualities, skills, aptitudes and experience you would like this person to have; how long you expect her (probably) to stay around; and what sort of employers you might be competing with.
The sort of individuals you have had trouble with are, sadly, the kind who are applying for this job because they can't get any other and they are desperate. What you want is someone who has discovered in herself a liking for older people, an aptitude for adapting to their "little ways," and who does the job because she's good at it. She may, for example, be a nurse who is fed to the back teeth with the health care system but wants to complete saving for her retirement. In that case, the salary you're paying on top of her board and lodging is her pension, it's not pin money. This person will ideally be a safe driver with a clean licence. A practical, coping type with a wide range of domestic and administrative skills. She will have initiative. She will be good at finding common ground and making light conversation. She is happy to unload the washing machine if you've forgotten to do it and you're running late. She is someone you can rely on, who you are happy to have in your home. So. What's that worth to you?
Once you've added up, you can present the figure either as a package -
c. €xx,000 inclusive of accommodation and benefits
or as a salary + benefits list -
€xx,000 basic + accommodation + benefits
The first is legitimate but a little bit weaselly - it's the sort of thing that heavily sales-oriented organisations get up to with their "on target earnings" figures. The second is clearer and therefore fairer.
But this is what you don't do, or not unless the person genuinely has any option about whether or not to live in anyway: offer a salary and then deduct rent and living expenses. What, are you going to take breakages out of her wages, too? Put a stop watch by the phone? Install a separate water meter? It just smacks of all the wrong attitudes to someone you're supposed to be welcoming to your home.
Though given that Sweden, Denmark and Italy apparently don't have a statutory minimum (neither do Norway or Switzerland, though they're not actually in the EU) I'm now less sure it's any reflection of good working conditions anyway.
Yes, that's how I think it is: salary+benefits
And yes, a contract in Europe already includes social security (health and protection in absence of a job - for being sick, pregnant, maternity care, or being fired) and IRS. So, when we earn MW we have to pay a percentage of those taxes and the employer pays the rest of it.
And of course, only variable expenses count. If she downloads the whole internet makes no difference, if she uses the washing machine three times a day or takes 1hour shower, that hurts. In my case, whoever we hired (now we won't need), could use everything with no restrictions.
My point was that:
Having a free house+bills is a huge benefit to any worker, since his salary will not be used at all for the biggest part of any worker's budget (housing) it will be only "pocket money".
MW is not enough in many countries (US, apparently, as Meallen said, and mine), because it's not enough to rent a house and pay the house bills and food. But if you don't have to pay for that, than your MW will be completely for your personal expenses (family care, school, hairdresser, clothes, whatever it is, it's irrelevant, personal and different or not to everyone).
So, if I have a great job and make 2xMW, and let's suppose MW=3 000, than I get 6 000
In the end, I pay for my house (suppose it's 3000) and bills (1000) and I'm left with 2 000.
On the other hand, if I have a job where I get MW, 3 000, but I have house food and everything I need there at no cost - I can eat whatever whenever I want, I have free internet, I can take a hundred showers per day, I can wash my laundry in the machine, and I don't pay for anything, than in the end, I'm left with 3 000.
(Both minus taxes and social security which are percentages that get higher as the salary is higher too, so it's proportional)
So, my point WAS that offering only 1xMW, and not 2xMW (as asked by many caregivers here and there), with all house, house bills and food paid, doesn't seem unfair to me nor a bad deal. This person makes more in the end of the month, than the other guy in the example above who earns twice this salary.
About the expected availability and the amount of work, I know it's a hard job, and whoever mentioned that is right, but in the end of the month, the money left justifies that. It's better than earning twice that amount but paying for house.
That WAS my point.
And yes, I wanted to know your opinion and the reasons presented for that benefit not being taken in consideration if that is 3 times more than 2xMW-house.
That way would be fair for the caregiver and better for anyone who HAS TO get help to take care of a natural inevitable situation: being old.
Families have to pay rent, bills, and that salary. Many - really a lot of people - cannot afford it. Many families cannot afford 1MW+house and doctors, much less if they ask twice that amount.
And that's a universal issue: the way we see aging and our elders, and that's the way market and people who follow it without regard for families are making us see our loved ones when they age: a burden. A financial and physical burden, because we, the majority, cannot afford to get help. If we did, we wouldn't think that taking care of an old person would be horrible, which now is justifying this expensiveness.
I know the market decides a lot, but the market is not human nor human rights directed. It's pure business. And this is a human right.
And that WAS my other point, not so important for the "can I offer house as part of the payment": and yes, political, activist, but a wake up call too to any caregiver out there to please be a little more reasonable when asking for 2xMW+Housing because that's making (as in my example) 6 000 clean/month.
The state should interfere? My opinion is yes. Here we may diverge a lot, because in Europe we (still) do believe in social security - not all -, US (still) believes in private care - not all. But that's irrelevant for this discussion now.
Thank you a lot countrymouse.
Well, yes. But my point was not that this is a huge benefit, but that it is a *quantifiable* benefit. So quantify it.
And the other point was that it might be best to list the skills you want and price them, too. Rather than drawing parallels with people you wouldn't seriously want in your home.
I worked on an assignment to find a fully-qualified librarian. Post graduate qualifications; long, long training; painstaking and critical work. £18K, the organisation was offering, and reckoned it generous. And the really appalling thing is that they were being generous, as I was horrified to discover.
Four years' training for physiotherapy, plus one year post qualification probation. That young woman now works in marketing for an international fmcg group and earns four times as much as she would if she was still helping people get well and pain free.
Specialist wound care nurses make a lot more selling supplies for otc pharma companies than they do tending pressure sores.
Market shmarket - we simply don't live in a world where people are paid according to the human worth of their work. But if you have the power to pay somebody the compliment of getting closer to it, good.
Aw shucks, thank you! I would send a hug back but you haven't enabled them?
And the list, as I said before, was hygiene, morning routine (give her meds and help her making her breakfast) and help her go to bed at night. Sure, be around if needed, that's why I was hiring a live in and no longer the home care support agency.
Another thing I said was that caregivers ask about the same amount no matter what the list/tasks are, and no matter what quality they offer back.
As I said, the agency asks twice the amount a private caregiver asks for, and the service is not great. They leave gloves and clothes everywhere, on top of my toiletries, on cabinet's doors, they use the same dirty water to mop the floor for days - fortunately I noticed the bucket stored full of dirty water, and she would keep using it if I haven't threw that away -, they use the face towel to clean her intimate parts - they use whatever they get -, don't dust or vacuum and barely and rarely clean, and don't iron, although that's all part of their job, and what I'm paying for, also some jewels went missing since they came, and the agency dismissed it ("never happened before").
While the live in caregiver, she said she had a reference letter that the no name previous family wrote. Her tasks here were MIL's hygiene, breakfast, meds, and be around - reason to be a live in and not a live out. We paid her house+bills+1MW.
I cooked, cleaned the house, shopped and took MIL to doctors and out. And she was never home. Only to eat and sleep.
I'm doing what she was paid to do now again with the agency ladies.
I pay a bit less in salary (the hour rate decreases with the amount of hours hired) than I was paying that live in, and I don't have to worry about running home to cook for 3, I have my privacy back, we're in family, our safety guaranteed, and spend less with variable expenses: less food, less coffee, less washing machines on, no dishwasher on every night, less lights on, less water...etc.
And this "Market shmarket - we simply don't live in a world where people are paid according to the human worth of their work. But if you have the power to pay somebody the compliment of getting closer to it, good." Is totally true. I said we're all underpaid. But to me, having 100% 1MW whatever the amount is to spend in the end of the month, is more than earning 2xMW but only end up with a third of that.
I assume you don't really want to discuss the topics you brought up, as you haven't addressed them directly, only reiterate what you already said. I am curious as to why you said 1) caregivers aren't paid enough and 2) they should be satisfied with what I want to give. Since your boyfriend's mother is now in care, why does it matter what you want to pay a live-in care giver?feel is reasonable.
I am discussing my topics. I said no one is well paid. I explained 3 times why my math makes 1xMW+housing better than simply 2xMW-housing, and more accessible to families. And my MIL was NOW accepted in a home care facility - the answer came AFTER I opened this thread - as I SAID too :
carenightmare
a day ago
"(...) Now we're waiting for a very decent home care facility to answer if they can accept her. I'm really praying they do, because for the same amount we've been asked for crappy holes, she could be in a really decent place, where they are treated as adults, not children, entertained, stay active and be in very clean and comfortable spaces. Let's see what happens."
carenightmare
a day ago
"And I'm sharing good news, since you prefer to talk about my personal life: She was accepted in the decent home care. She'll be very happy there and so will I knowing she will be taken good care of and not stolen and conned by scammers who ask whatever they want without guaranteeing quality"
If this is what you wanted: "
And the list, as I said before, was hygiene, morning routine (give her meds and help her making her breakfast) and help her go to bed at night. Sure, be around if needed, that's why I was hiring a live in and no longer the home care support agency." Why were you expecting them to mop the floor?
" they use the same dirty water to mop the floor for days - fortunately I noticed the bucket stored full of dirty water, and she would keep using it if I haven't threw that away -, they use the face towel to clean her intimate parts - they use whatever they get -, don't dust or vacuum and barely and rarely clean, and don't iron, although that's all part of their job,"
The lack of care for the patient is a separate issue.
What you do want us to say: providing housing for a person you want to live-in so she can be on call 24 hours day is an extra, above and beyond what you should have to do?
Then countrymouse answered and I answered back:
My opinion after Countrymouse, cdnreader and few who answered with sobriety and numbers and by comparing it with nannies, is the same I had: That IT DEPENDS. On many things.
I can ask for less, but unfortunately CG is overrated in the market, not because of the effort and availability needed - nannies work hard too and are there 24/7 -, or the quality provided - same price different/bad job - , or the quantity of tasks - I asked for half the job but the price was the same as a full Care.
And that yes, housing is a benefit that is quantifiable, it is used for nannies but not for CG, it could be taken in consideration but it won't.
Everyone should be paid more in general. Me, you, caregivers, nannies, but it is how it is, and being how it is, and being this a human right's issue, we as a society SHOULD be more reasonable too when ask for a wage without taking in consideration the whole thing. If we could all pay a CG a million, then ok, fine. I wouldn't care and this forum wouldn't even exist. We would all have CG and home facilities.
And quality isn't a separate issue, Meallen. Is part of the issue. Because if the market said 2xMW+Housing=QUALITY, then we would know that less than that meant crappy service. But it isn't the case. 2MW+Housing could be a very reasonable price IF you could turn your back and know your family would be absolutely well taken care of.
Or 2MW+Housing=Full Job.
But if my list of tasks, the one I expected from the live in, is less, it's half the work another caregiver is asked for: she didn't have to clean, cook, shop, take her out, and be on her face 24/7, she could take time off, why would you or the market demand that I pay this woman the same you pay to a woman who also has to do what I did?
The amount of work asked was way less, why would I pay the same? Just because?
And again if paying a lot meant quality, than I should have quality when I pay the agency to come here. And I don't have.
What I meant Meallen is that the price asked does not reflect the service provided - neither for quality, neither for quantity. So it's a very subjective value. The availability is taken in consideration for a CG and a Nanny and prices are different.
My question was if housing couldn't be part of the payment which would reduce the 2MW to 1MW and a bit more (fine), and I gave mathematical examples as to why that made a big difference. I still believe having 100% 2MW in the end of the month is more than lots of high skilled jobs offer.
I hope I made myself clear now - I'm tired of explaining and be bashed. I'm happy that my problem is solved. I'll never have to come back here. I have two more weeks with her, but for sure I will not turn to this community for support, because very few people can talk.
I hope you're all very happy too now or/and in the future. I'm with all of you in this.
I also hope after this post you think and read before bashing me or my BF more.
Thank you.
If I write it, I'll do it in my country and internet for everyone to think about it.
There's too many issues, to many human rights issues being violated when it comes to elderly. From being treated as children, lunatics and deaf, to taking advantage of their retirement money asking for all of it for whatever in return, home care facilities ask huge amounts for a place to dump them in a shitty hole watching TV and being treated as idiots with activities similar to the ones in kindergartens, CG agencies charge whatever they want to clients but underpay their CG (they charge 3x more what a CG ask on the market, and pay them half of what they ask, with taxes on their own); CGs are following the trend, and as countrymouse said, there are many people out there becoming a CG because they can't do anything else, and they all ask a lot, because it's a business based mostly on a no one to turn to demand: it's a either you pay me what I ask, or you're screwed.
And that's why we're here
While 2x MW seems reasonable, if you're paying her for 40 hours per week, she seems underpaid. If you're paying her for 100 hours (with time-and-a-half over 40 hours), she seems overpaid.
You also can't count per hour when you're hiring for full time.
A cleaning lady may ask for 30/h to come and clean for 2 or 3 hours a couple of days in a week, but if you hire her to come the whole morning everyday you won't pay by the hour, but a "salary". Like the agency charges different prices per hour, depending on if you hire their services for 2 hours a day or 7 hours a day. The price per hour can be 20, but for the maximum service (24/7) they charge 12 per hour.
The same logic applies to live in nannies, as I said, they have to work the same hours, with the same responsibilities, with similar skills (emergencies, cooking, driving, and reading etc) and same expected availability.
"according to 2015 INA Nanny Salary & Benefits Survey, the average hourly rate is $18.66 USD per hour". However, "live-in nannies make $652 per week". That's not 18,66x24x7 if it was, you'd pay a live-in nanny $13 435/month. That's almost 4x the average wage in US, which is 849/week (3400/month).
(Edit: And by the way, live-out nannies make more ($705 per week) then live ins).
That's why benefits also count - and should - to reduce the value of that salary, since it's part of the "package"
greataupair.com/search/hire.cfm/careType/seniorcare
*Filter by: "seeking=Live-In and Nationality=American, or else you'll have people offering to work for 200 because they live in Nepal or Philippines...
They ask the same range and some are available 7 days, others 5, others 6, some make more, some make less...
On that site, you can also search for nannies, and although some ask the same 501-1000, many ask a lot less, and a lot say it's negotiable too.
But unless a CG can prescribe medication and cure diseases like a doctor does, I don't see how 4000 month in net salary is being that underpaid. Apparently a nurse earns less in net salary ($3651.66. according to: http://www.registerednursern.com/how-much-money-does-a-registered-nurse-make-per-month/) and has higher skills, works shifts, attends more people per hour and is expected to be available too.
And adding "give medication" to the list of duties doesn't make them doctors. It's just like give them water at specific times of the day...
A Live in nanny is the most similar job I can find:
They have to have CPR training and be alert for choking, falling, sickness, and sometimes take care of sick children with cancer, heart problems, etc; babies do give a lot of work;: they poop and pee frequently, they scream and cry when they need something; they eat special food, they have schedules, they don't shower, they have to be carried and have to be monitored constantly, etc. Also, it's not only babies they take care of, they do take care of toddlers and teenagers, and have to drive them to and pick them up from school, help them with homework (+skills), care for their discipline and manners (spoiled brats consume your energy), etc etc, some have special medication, and you live there too and you're expected to be ready for anything on your waking hours and you have 2 days off.
"Technically, (...) live-in and live-out nannies should receive the same rate. Because you're paying for the same services, the pay should not be different -- but it often is.
In reality, many live-in nannies generally make slightly less per hour than a live-out nanny, (...)That's because they live in your home, so you absorb the costs of room and board."
the whole article: care.com/c/stories/4313/what-does-a-live-in-nanny-cost
Here's a future CG asking what to ask for. Everyone says different things, just like in this thread. Room and Board lowers the price, then some tell her to charge per hour, others go for no sleep nights, others base it on what they made in care centers, some suggest a lot, some suggest less, etc etc. care.com/c/questions/3481/what-should-i-be-paid-for-a-live-in-caregiver
I guess no one knows, but I think CGs are asking what they want based on an idealized (nightmare life) service even when we tell them that it won't happen and we're also offering room+board (salary=net income). We can't afford and we can't tell if we're hiring a good professional just based on the price.
True, scammers or people that only want a place to live ask less - I made that mistake, and learned that if they say that's why they're doing this - RUN
Anyway, I wasn't thinking about fighting the system when asked this and fortunately I won't have to bother with it now. When I saw the prices asked and what they were offering and what I was getting no matter what (I remind you that her first caregiver, before she needed me made 1MW for less working hours (10/week instead of the 40/week), + another 2MW for vacations, and this didn't stop her from conning my MIL and stealing all her money; that the agency charges me the double asked for a CG to come 2 hours a day, and the job is very lousy and jewels went missing; that the live in earned 1MW net income for morning and bedtime routine, and yes, be available during waking hours, slept 10/night, was out all day and jewels went missing - I still can't tell who did it, she and the agency ladies overlapped)...I decided that someone at home wasn't the solution.
No matter how high the price is, they're not nurses or doctors. If something happens they can't do much, but take her to an hospital or doctor. In a home care, she has that included. For less the price and without having to pay her house bills and theirs.
Unfortunately, home care facilities were depressing me. And finding home care facilities was the same as finding a CG: For the same high price the quality differs, and usually high price isn't equal to good place. For some reason, by chance, when I wasn't looking anymore, I found this one that is great! Just what we were looking for, and they for some reason (they say it's a special price), ask the same for a double room super nice, (I was asked the same for triple bedrooms in very depressing places).
Business. One day it will change. I'm sure when old people (us, in the future) have more options, the prices will low.
She works for that international agency (it's in USA too) that charged us twice the amount charged by a caregiver (but pays them way less than that). That agency I called some weeks ago to complain about some jewellery being stolen and they dismissed it with a: "never happened before" - so why do they charge so much if they don't do a good job and it's not even safer??
Here's their disclaimer: "...provides award-winning in-home care for seniors and other adults in need of assistance with daily activities. Our highly trained and dedicated caregivers can help your loved one stay in their home for as long as safely possible—a dream come true for many elders" - yeah, right!
She was working privately for us, not through the agency, so we were paying her the fair price, what caregivers ask per hour, and still doing a lousy job (always late, never cleaned, never stayed the whole hour, and I had to make the breakfast and prepare her medication).
She apologized for stealing. But she only did it because she was caught, not because she was sorry.
They all think elderly are sick minded people, who have no idea what they have or where they put their things, so they rip them off. Disgusting.
I fired her so I had to do it myself again. My MIL is in the home care facility now. I feel sad and guilty for putting her there, but this hiring caregivers has been a nightmare and although she's much better there than being at home with these thieves, I'll keep my eyes open.
Enough!!
Jvk252630: watch her closely. Install cameras. Use old smartphones as CCTV if you can't afford nanny cams or other system. Don't let your family member isolate, go visit him/her often. Don't let the caregiver feel too much on the loose, take over the space and her life.
Her previous caregiver isolated her, turned all her close friends and family members against each other and her, so she was "the only one who took care of her" and in the end stole all of her money. We even suspect that she may have poisoned her to get rid of her faster.
What I've learned from this: at home caregiving is a big risk, no matter how much you pay, how nice they are, or how business-like they sound.
Good luck