As stated in my question I signed admission papers for my Dad in a nursing home. He had a joint CD with my sister and she withdrew the funds in 2009. She refuses to give back the money. I don't know what do do regarding medicaid. I had 37K in a joint CD with my dad which I surrendered. What will happen now. Will medicaid go after her or will I be penalized since I signed the admission papers?
I don't know if your attorney disclosed to you what you might do to help yourself in advance. Unless you have unlimited funds, try being direct with him and asking what you might do yourself, versus his office staff or his own time. Tell him you have a budget and want to stick to it. Usually the person who handles the billing in the nursing home, and / or the business manager can give you much info for free.
Has the nursing home already billed Medicaid? If so, ask for advice on disclosure of this CD. The nursing home just wants to be paid, so it is in your and your father's interests to have Medicaid pay the nursing home and recover the money, which they will do if it is disclosed after the fact or discovered on audit. The rate that Medicaid pays is probably less than the daily rate that you signed for on admission. Assuming your dad is not handling his own affairs or is relying on you & your sister for help then the person who filled out the paperwork, or helped him fill out the paperwork to qualify for Medicaid is mandated to disclose any accounts that they are aware of.
Good luck, it will take some work on your part but it will be worth it.
Don't be deceived into thinking that it is somehow your fault and burden. If your dad elected to receive care at home he would still need that money. That is why he worked and saved.
Sad as it is, sometimes money and control show us who people really are. Give some people a little bit of control and they stomp all over others. Give some people a little money to hold & they will show their loyalty really fast.
You seem like a good person - take care & ask that people help you.
Gebaa 00, to clarify Medicaid goes after the money. Olive was concerned they would go after her as she signed the admission forms. Medicaid would not go after her personally instead they would follow her father's money to the person who has it, in this case her sister. Sadly this is not uncommon, which is why Medicare has these rules.
Hope that clarifies what I wrote earlier. I notice you are new on the board. Welcome! when you have time fill out your profile with your story. This is a nurturing environment for all caregivers, so no need to be shy!
You will need something in writing from her because you will have to provide originals of all bank statements and financial records to Medicaid. It will probably be easier if you approach this without any emotion. If she replaces the money, then your dad will spend down until he reaches $2,000. If she does not replace the money then the family will have to make a decision. I don't envy you. I hope it is something that can be remedied and does not split the family apart.
Still - you never know what people are capable of until they do it. Hang in there and keep your feelings under wraps - the less emotion the better.
We need new laws on the books that will empower adult children of aging parents to take people who do these kind of things to court without the parent being the one who files a complaint?
You are lucky that your sister and her husband didn't pull the usual of applying to be their POA and Guardian. Or perhaps there is more you don't know. When funny business goes on, they will try to cover it up & hope the parent is too old or mentally impaired to follow though. And if your father passes away, they will cry crocodile tears and claim the money was a gift.
Have your dad send them a letter - through a lawyer if you can afford it. It is financial elder abuse. Document what you can. Tell the nursing home - they are mandated reporters and have to by law fill out a form if you tell them about this financial abuse.
By the way - what is the birth order of you & your siser. Do you have any siblings?
Medicaid does not care about what happened to your father's money. The only thing that is important to them is that the money was there and now it is not and it is now considered a gift.
Medicaid does not "go after money" until the recipient is dead. At death, the state will initiate an estate recovery process and if there are probatable assets they will attempt to recoup the cost of care. If fraud is perpetrated against Medicaid a referral could be made to the states attorney's general office for prosecution but nothing of the sort has occurred here.
It is ludicrous to think that a state agency is going to go running around looking for applicant's money either before or during claim...they just deny benefits if there is any question.
What may happen is that a penalty period of ineligibility will be imposed. I have no idea what the amount in question is, but if it is around $35k as your account was your father could be looking at a penalty of up to 3 or 4 months. (One half the account value divided by your state's medicaid rate = number of months of penalty).
What to do? Forget the lawyer!!! He has no authority and in the end, really no interest. You will pay ridiculous amounts of money and get no result...I promise you!
Instead, call whatever the equivalent is for Adult Protective Services in your state (the Long-Term Care Ombudsman typically only deals with matters between a facility and a resident, not matters between family members and residents so they would be the wrong agency to contact). They LOVE cases like this.
The reason you want to do this is: 1. It will scare the bejeesus out of your sister, 2. It will be a lot easier to have a third party involved instead of he said/she said and you don't have evidence to call in the police. 3. When you apply for Medicaid you are going to ask for a "hardship exception" to the imposition of penalty so you want your story documented. Having it documented as elder financial abuse will help you in your dad's cause.
If, other than this issue your father's assets are spent down, forget about the lawyer when applying for medicaid as well. Let the facility do it. If you need an attorney to handle the hardship issue (which you shouldn't) find one who will bill you hourly without a retainer.
Hi Ann,
I have noticed in your postings you seem virulently opposed to any form of financial planning around Medicaid. I very much appreciate your sentiments and I, too, hate the concept of "go on Medicaid and protect your money for your kids" and will not work with families where that is their primary goal.
But to disparage the whole notion of long-term care financial planning by combining personal resources and public benefits is simply not fair and does an extreme disservice to those in need.
For instance, in the case of this poster, what if instead of spending down all of their father's money to qualify for Medicaid I was able to move that money into a trust that would allow the income and principal to be spent on what the father will need but Medicaid will not pay for? Like what you may ask? Well, how about eyeglasses, dentures, hearing aides...how about clothes?!? Entertainment, transportation, the list goes on and on...
Upon the demise of the father if there was anything left in the trust Medicaid would be paid back for what they spent on his care and if after that there was any residual it would go to family.
I don't see a problem with that, do you?
Or, instead of spending down all monies I showed this family how to keep Dad at home by using Medicaid in combination with an immediate annuity that would supplement Dad's income. At his death the same would happen with residual funds as above.
I don't see a problem with that, do you?
Or what if I could have shown this family how to pay for an assisted living facility using a combination of their own resources and Medicaid benefits? If that were the case, he might very well be able to transition to an assisted living facility as opposed to staying in skilled nursing. Where would you rather see your loved one?
I don't see a problem there, do you?
I don't ask these questions rhetorically because I believe this is a legitimate debate and I am genuinely curious as to what people feel is fair and reasonable and what is not. Let's face it, we have to deal with this as individuals but also collectively as a society so I appreciate everyone's point of view.
So tell me Ann, is what I do a good thing or a bad thing?
P.S. It is a shame on this poster's sister that she has no problem stealing her dad's money feeling that he going on Medicaid anyway...if that is indeed the fact pattern. But note that in this case it had nothing to do with a planner of any stripe...it was just the sheer narcissism and greed of a family member yet you were quick to point to unscrupulous professionals. So I'm curious about the chip on your shoulder!
I am not "virulently" opposed to anything. I stated a fact. Unfortunately the marketing provides the mechanisim for the unscrupulous. I stated that the money is there for the fathers care and should be used that way. You have no idea what I think, you just wrote something because you didn't like what I said and you wanted to promote yourself & your service.
I notice too that you misspoke. A previous poster said medical follows the money - you jumped on that and then backtracked to qualify it as following the money once the person is deceased. You characterized that person's comment as 'ludicrous'. These are fairly strong words - made all the worse by the fact that you are a professional whose business is telling people how to manage their estates. I do not have a chip on my shoulder - I am simply a caregiver who is giving my opinion to Olive who started this thread. We are supposed to be safe and allowed to speak freely without recriminations. Do you have a reason to be on this board - I do not see an Agingcare Expert symbol next to your name.
I am curious though, why as a professional are you contributing to this board? I am not a big fan of being singled out because someone disagrees with me. I am less than impressed when someone stomps on me because they can. I notice that you then segue into a dialog about how YOU could have helped this family. I think you have crossed the line, and the insults are not ok. Please think about the people who participate before you start throwing around judgemental remarks that are hurtful.
I am sorry if you felt my comments were judgmental or hurtful. It was certainly not my intent. I contribute to this board to share my experiences not only as a "professional" who works with families in crisis everyday, but as the son to my soon to be 82 year old father who has been afflicted with Alzheimer's for the past 5 years. I am satisfied in that I have contributed much information to these forums for which I have received appreciative feedback.
If my language at times reads forcefully it is because it is my intent. The problem sometimes with boards such as these is that misinformation is perpetuated and readers come away with impressions that are not accurate.
So, for instance, when I read over and over again comments or questions about Medicaid "taking a home" or "going after money" I feel it important to firmly dispel such notions.
Similarly, I addressed this issue with you specifically because if I am not mistaken I noticed you had repeated it in several posts. Of course you are not the only one and where others have stated such opinion I have let mine be known as well.
I did not intend to self-promote. It was just the parlance. I could just have easily said "If an attorney recommended..." or "If an advisor recommended...", or "If a social worker recommended..." and if I were sitting here really crafting my phrases I may have thought of that so thank you for pointing it out.
Lastly, I want to apologize again to you and to any other reader who may have taken offense. The last thing I would ever want to do is make someone feel as though they have been disrespected. I agree completely this should be a safe and welcome place for us share and learn.
Thank you, Ann, for taking the time to let me know how you feel and what I could have done differently.