What should kids do if Mom stops us from preventing Dad to drive?

Even young people have traffic wrecks.... how does Dad drive, is Mom afraid to ride with him? Are you afraid to ride with him? What type of wreck did he have? Was it near by their home or was he out on a major highway? A lot depends on location. If your parents in downtown LA get him off the road... if your parents live in Mayberry, that's a bit safer for him to travel. Cutting off driving is a HUGE thing in an elder's life, it's cutting off their independence.

You are right, your parents need to get Wills, Power of Attorney, and other legal documents. One way I got my Dad to update old documents was to tell him that with the changes in the State law, if his or Mom's Wills aren't written correctly the State could take half of their estate [it was a fib, but sometimes we do what we got to do]. Boy, my Dad's ears perked up and in we went to an Elder Law attorney.

Guys that use power tools will get hurt numerous times no matter what their age. Not much you can do about that. So unless he is cutting down huge trees, just turn a blind eye and hope for the best. Buy him safety gloves, steel toe shoes, and eye gear to wear.

Hopefully your Mom has access [HIPPA permission] to your father's medical forms. She can tell you whatever information she thinks you need to know.

Jan, stubborn, independent parents! Sometimes a tragedy has to happen for tyem to overcome their denial. Do you know who dad's doc is? You can call and give the doc all the information on your concerns. It does not take a HIPPA release for that. Often times docs will write a letter to motor vehicle who will then suspend a driver's license. Realize the doc more than likely will not give you information, but they make mistakes and slip sometimes.

You're kind of in a bind if your mother isn't acknowledging the risks.

1. But, first, as to the accident. Was it actually his fault? Was anyone injured, and to the best of your knowledge did the responding police officer discuss termination of driving with your father?

If you know the jurisdiction, you could contact the PD, ask for the records department and get a copy of the police report. If it reflects that your father caused the accident, you can anonymously contact the state department that handles driver licensing and ask for a review of your father's driving capability. If it's determined that his ability is compromised, they can suspend his license.

There's another less painful or humiliating way that isn't as public. Do you know who his insurance carrier is? If so, you could contact them and ask if they can intervene, again, depending on whether the police report indicated your father was at fault. If his insurance carrier believes his driving is a risk, they'll step in and resolve the issue of his continued driving.

2. Your mother's refusal to address estate planning is certainly a concern. I like FF's "therapeutic fib", as Babalou, another insightful poster, describes it. If your parents aren't up to date on legal issues, use a therapeutic fib and follow FF's suggestions. Thinking that they'll lose part of their estate to government might be the motivation.

But do it casually and don't discuss estate planning for awhile so your mother doesn't suspect.

Another option is to have your own estate plan prepared, discuss some aspects of the process with your siblings in front of your parents, and emphasize that everyone needs a plan, regardless of age.

You might even want to use another therapeutic fib. Concoct a compelling story of someone who was injured in an accident (maybe hit by a car, something that doesn't make your parents suspect you're thinking of their own driving) and suffered brain injuries to the point that he/she was unable to manage his/her affairs, had no estate plan, and was unable to establish how he/she wanted his heirs to handle his estate. You'll probably know best what could "therapeutically" make your parents anxious on this issue.

3. Unfortunately, power tools are something that are more difficult to deal with not so much because of their power to injure but because they're links to something a man (or woman) has done in the past, whether it's work related, pastime, pleasure or hobby.

It can be the link to what made your father happy, proud, and what drove him to engage in the activities he did, especially if he used them in his profession or a lot for hobbies and pleasurable pastimes.

Sever that link and you also sever a great deal of what self esteem he has. Couple that with (if it happens), being denied the right to drive, you have the grounds for some major depression and loss of self esteem.

What you might do is ask him when he's planning to use power tools and be with him, ostensibly to learn how to use them (if you don't already). Tell him you'd like to learn, that he can be the teacher and you the student. Then as he shows you, ask if you can do the work for him, again as the student, to practice your techniques. And gradually take over using the tools, allowing him to guide you.

If you already know how to use power tools, perhaps you could just ask him when he plans to use them as you'd like to work side by side with him, just to be together.

4. Medical issues. No good suggestions except to volunteer to take your parents to their doctor appointments if/once your father stops driving, but make it a social occasion as well. Stop at a restaurant afterward, go to a park, or someplace they enjoy so it doesn't appear as though you're going just to learn what the doctors have to say.

I'm assuming though that you have some free time to do that.

Glad also makes a good suggestion about contacting their doctor(s) just to express your concerns, especially on issues such as driving. But make it clear that your concerns are confidential. Once a doctor blurted out something I had raised privately and I was really embarrassed.

I would first evaluate just what proof you have to show he's a danger. Get the accident reports to see if it was his poor driving. If so, I would report anonymously to the DMV so they can give a review. AND I might also report to his doctor. Innocent lives are at stake. Is he repeating himself, forgetting events, getting lost, not bathing, not paying bills, etc.

Sometimes you have to be assertive. I would not let this one go on even one more day without serious inquirey. If your dad really does have dementia that is impairing his ability to drive and operate dangerous machinery, then his brain is keeping him from realizing this risk. And if it's true, and your mom is refusing to protect him, then I would question her mental state too. Is she okay? You have to question whether is is worth doing nothing, if he ends up with a missing limb.

I don't know that I would report to the insurance company, because if they cancel his coverage and he and mom are too unstable to get new coverage, he could keep driving and wreck without coverage. That would really concern me.

If you discover that it's as you expect, I would see an attorney about filing for guardianship. If mom is not using proper judgment, she would not be a proper guardian. It involves a lot to go that route, but you will get the court involved and they can compel the medical records and a mental evaluation. It can make family members pretty angry, but I sometimes you have no other option. I would have a very sit down with them, before you do it though.

It;s a shame they won't cooperate with protecting their own interests. That sounds rather curious to me.

My mother complained about my dads driving as things got worse,, but never did anything about it but TALK about it. He, of course, thought he was driving fine. It was not until she was in the hospital and I took him the pschy apt and found out how bad he really was that we put a stop to it. It is not easy.

Yes Dad has been diagnosed with vascular dementia & early stages alzheimers & the neurologist said No driving under any circumstances because his brain is not functioning correctly. His wreck was his fault & there was a minor injury, His injuries with power tools were a result of him not being able to make sound decisions any longer. Mom encourages him to use a chainsaw to cut wood, but he halfway cut his arm off with a circular saw trying to trim his crepe myrtle bushes. I had told him to leave them until I had time & I would trim them. I am not strong enough to feel safe trying to use a chainsaw. His judgement about many things is not normal & anyone talking & questioning Dad can tell. He has major trouble just talking, he has got lost while driving in areas he grew up in. Dad couldn't even tell the neurologist all of his kids names or even what year it is. He knows he is having major trouble, but my Mom just can't seem to accept it. She argued with the doctor who really got on to her & told her to keep him out of a vehicle. But I will do all I can to try to keep him safe. It may take me months to stop it, but I will do my best. Hopefully it won't take a terrible trajedy to prove to her. I am beggining to keep a log of every incident that happens in case we have to take legal action to prove that she is not trying to ensure his wellbeing in all this. I don't want to do that, but I may not have a choice at some point. Thanks for everyones thoughts. I guess it is never easy for any of us.

You have filled in the details very well. I'm dealing with a similar situation with my dad, not this bad yet but it's comming.

Mom has to be overruled. Is it possible she has developed some dementia? Her judgement is very poor. Given your description of his condition the driving and the use of power tools has to end. No debate. But keep in mind, if dads off the road someone has to fill in for groceries, drug store, doc etc. it ain't easy.

Search this site for discussions and articles on seniors and driving. Getting the keys away is tough. Read up. It sounds to me that in your case some confrontation is unavoidable. Try sweet talk, reasoning, trickery but failing all that take action. Get ALL the keys, and hid or disable the car. Get rid of or disable the power tools. (The incident of trimming bushes with a circular saw is particularly troubling). I've gone through some of this with my dad. Somehow his chainsaw quit working and next will be the lawn tractor and then probably the car. I am fully prepared to do battle with him before he kills himself or someone else. Your time is right now and mine's a comin.....

Using a circular saw to trim bushes is really overkill and does reflect an inability to choose the appropriate tool for the job. I'd agree now that the power tools need to be hidden away some place, or sold or otherwise disposed of.

You said he "halfway cut his arm off..." was this a near accident or an accident? I'd really hate to think that he was injured by a circular saw; those things are treacherous.

You face some tough action, but remember that what you're contemplating and plan to do is for his good, even if your mother becomes upset with you. It sounds like she just doesn't want to accept the truth. And I'm sure that's just as difficult for her as it is for him.

Perhaps you or one of the siblings could tell your father you need to use some of his power tools and pretend to borrow them but never return them.

I think the duty of the child of a person who should not drive is to consider the safety of others. While my mom sure wanted to keep driving, it was not OK to risk her killing someone's child in a car accident. It was not hard to do, just hard to have the moral strength to do. I logged on to the state DMV website and searched taking driver's license away. I also found the guidelines they use as limitations which make driving dangerous. I composed a letter to the DMV saying what the reasons were that she should not drive any more. They don't take the DL away with that, and they keep the letter-writer anonymous, but they schedule a behind the wheel test and if she doesn't show up, she loses the license and has to take the whole test (including written) all over. She just didn't go, saying she could take it later. She had been in the hospital with a small stroke, so we blamed it on the fact that she had a stroke that they would want to test her. But there were enough physical and judgment reasons for her to stop driving. We had her take a private driving eval a year earlier and she barely passed, but that helped us wait longer and feel OK about it. Those are available in most cities through private businesses or through larger rehab centers.

Kathy1951, yes a child's duty is to keep them & others safe, but I conferred with an attorney & here in Oklahoma, we don't have the legal right to do anything at this point. We can't get proof from the doctor without one of the parents allowing it (& they won't), we cannot take the vehicles away or Mom will call the police & report we have stollen them, if we disable them they will call the garage & have them fixed, so it is not a question of our not being willing to do anything about it. We are searching for some way to do it legally & that won't cause one of us to wind up in jail doing. We are keeping detailed records of all incidents & dates, what doctor has said & so on so we maybe could prove (if we have to at some point) that she knew all along that he is having safety issues but refused to act in his & others best interests. We do care, but it is almost impossible to prove these things without doctors records, which she won't allow us near. We are trying to find away to finagle & trick Dad into letting one of us get them. We are trying best we know how.

I wen through something similar with my husband. My children and I agreed that he must not drive anymore even tho we had tried and FAILED big time to get him to stop. So one night our son took his car keys home with him. The next morning the crisis came when my husband discovered his keys were gone and we told him. He got more and combative and confrontational as the day wore on. At 4 p.m.I called for help. He was taken to the hospital and a few days later into a memory care facility. We are all very sad about this but they are taking care of him now and we no longer have to worry about his driving.

In Washington State, there is a Dept of Licensing, where form area available to fill out and submit to DMV. They will contact your Dad to have his driving re-evaluated. If your Dad got a lawyer he could find out who turned him in as it is not anonymous. If you are uncomfortable, his doctor could also submit a request for him to be professionally evaluated.
Get this done asap... we are all on the road too and want to be safe.

Explain to MOM she had better have a good lawyer because when/if he hits/hurts/maims/kills someone they are going to sue the living h*ll out of his estate

What does your father have to say when you approach him about this? Stop going through your mother. Deal with him direct.

Meanwhile, tell your mother that if she encourages him to continue to use hazardous machinery in spite of the accidents, which are clear evidence that he is no longer able to do this safely, then you will hold her responsible for any harm that comes to him and you will say so to any authority that will listen.

Unless your father has been declared incompetent and you have power of attorney for him, that's about all you can do. You're not their boss.

Well here we are now over 6 month later & Dad is still driving. He has gotten lost several times (some even when Mom was with him) & had at least 3 other incidents. I spoke with the Chief of Police who could not help even with advice. DMV cannot help without something from the doctor, so I wrote a letter to the doctor & explained what is going on & enclosed a form from DMV & asked if she would please help get him off the streets. It seems the VA doctors are not allowed to request license be revoked, only to request he be retested. So he received the request by mail & we believe he is ignoring it (but don't know that for certain). Surely he could not pass a test, because he can no longer even talk properly. He can't find words now, so his speech is mostly Yes or No & he usually says the opposite of what he means. My mother now won't allow us to take him to the doctor without her, where she lies about alot of things to the doctors. She refuses to take control of his meds & lies & tells people she gives him every dose herself. I caught him one morning & he had taken 6 days worth of heart meds & 6 days worth of blood thinners & was sick because of it. She now is now allowing 2 of my siblings to even visit or hangs up if they call. She revealed to me that this is all because she knows that if Dad goes into a memory care facility that she is not physically able to live alone. I have offered to let them live with me, but she won't have that or us coming into their home to help them. So, with a heavy heart & my frantic concern of a possible overdose killing Dad, I finally called Adult Protective Service & spoke with them. They were supposed to have done a home visit within 72 hours & I was told someone would call me before they did & then to update me after they did it. It has been 2 weeks from tomorrow & I've heard nothing. I do know that my mother could very likely refuse to let them in. So, we are still at a stalemate. Dad is still driving, although now it has to be illegally. Mom is unable to even drive to the store & go in & buy groceries or drive to the bank or wherever & walk all the way in. I think the only way we are going to be able to force this issue is to force her to do everything on her own & not be there to help. That sounds terrible, but she is one of these people that she will have to see that she can not do it herself. Let her be

Sorry my computer is worn out & it cuts off words & etc at will. Anyway, as I was saying, I think maybe it would be good to force her to see that she has to have help, whether she wants it or not. She just doesn't trust anyone, not even any family member. She is afraid everyone is after their money. Now I truly understand the saying that money is the root of all evil. No one is after their money. Now, I have turned this over to the good Lord to handle it, because we sure can't. Thanks for letting me vent. Sometime

Jan, I'm so sorry that you are going through this. You called APS, the police and the doctor. That's all any of us can do. Do come back to vent, let us know how things are going.

One thought. If you haven't, make sure that you've sent this information to police,DMV, the doctor and APS via mail, return reciept requested. Sometimes, if theres a paper trail, you get more action.

If your father doesn't appear for the drivers' test as scheduled at the DMV, in Michigan his license would automatically be cancelled. The next time there's an incident, the police will check with DMC records and find that his license has been revoked.

If you know who their vehicle insurance agent and/or carrier is, I would notify them of the attempts you've made as well as the fact that a notice has been sent to your father.

This is a really sad situation; your mother is afraid and is trying to cling to days when they both were healthier. It's hard for people (young and old) to make the leap to serious life changes.

Your mother needs to be overruled whether legally or not. They are going to get hurt or kill someone else driving or end up in the ER due to mixing up meds. The car should be disabled. Your mom getting mad and yelling is by far the lesser of two evils.

Even if he gets a letter saying his license is suspended or insurance is cancelled, he won't read it or stop driving. This calls for drastic action. You have to get them out of the house and while you are out to dinner, a 'doctor's appointment' or whatever, someone else must take the car keys out of the house, or even better, remove the car from the driveway. Park it somewhere out of sight. 'OMG the car has been stolen!' terrible pity! Let the screaming start!... (do you think they're still capable of going out and buying another car, though?? it could happen!) ....other than that, I guess you have done what you can do and will just wait for something terrible to happen. I would go ahead and have the car 'stolen', I wouldn't want to be responsible for allowing this to go on and then have a tragedy happen. When my husband's aunt mistook the gas pedal for the brake and crashed into a grocery store, even she realized, 'welp, time to give up driving, I guess.'

I totally agree with Lassie. We went thru absolute h*ll with my mother-in-law and stopping her driving. She had advancing dementia and always been a stubborn, stubborn person. We were able to go to doctor visits with her. We had already told the doctor in advance of visit that she should not be driving. He told her she was not to drive anymore. She would not listen to him. So, he wrote to DMV and told them she was not allowed to drive anymore and license should be revoked. The doctor called her several times about not driving. DMV sent letter of revocation of license. She would not listen. So, we first disengaged the battery so car would not start. She calls AAA and they fix it. So next took the keys - she wanted to get new ones made. So, we took the car which she had previously said our daughter could have when she was not driving anymore. We told her our daughter had the car. She called three or more times per day demanding to know where car was.

Yes, it is difficult to force a loved one not to drive anymore. But, what is more difficult is for her to bring harm to herself and others. She had plenty of people helping her and driving her. We were very patient and kind to her with respect to this issue. It took months for her to accept; but, we could not allow her drive and hurt others. My heart goes out to you dealing with this, but it has to be done.

It always astounds me when I read about an elderly person who doesn't remember what year it is, can't remember how many children they had, or get lost walking around the block, yet they insist on getting behind the wheel...and are crafty enough, 'with-it' enough, to know how to call AAA to come fix the car, or a locksmith to come and make them a new key for that car. Some even call ads in the newspaper to bring a car for sale over and come up with cash to pay for it! (It would seem to us horrified onlookers that driving is the last gasp of independence if they could do that! But the sad truth is, no matter how much they are determined to keep driving, they simply are not safe to themselves or others behind the wheel. They are an accident waiting to happen.)

Here is a plan: TAke the care away..Do it with a sibling if you need to. Tell them they can have it back as soon as he passes a driver's test. You can get a private 'driving evaluation' at some of the larger rehab centers (Courage Center in Mpls for example) or he can go to the DMV and get his test. Other than that, this is your first real ethical challenge: Do you recognize your duty to the other people on the road? If someone's 2yo gets killed by your Dad, how could you justify knowing all that you know and yet not taking his car away????? Elder care is not for the faint of heart thats for sure....its hard stuff, but this is a priority. Maybe he will pass his test and prove you wrong??? That can happen.

So are you saying that none of the children have written a letter to the DMV in Oklahoma which would force the testing? I think often families rely too much on wanting the doctor to do this job, and it isn't really the doctor's job to point things like this out to the DMV unless the doctor feels strongly about it (such as after witnessing a seizure or syncopal episode threatening driving). The letter does not TAKE THE LICENSE AWAY, it triggers the DMV to suspend the license for testing. In Minnesota the reporter is anonymous. The letter has to state what the reasons are, but DMV give you cues on what reasons would qualify. You have to sign your name and relationship to support why you have knowledge. You indicted there was already some type of letter sent to him by the DMV? Has his license already been suspended, and how can you check on that? If children hide a car and the parent calls police to report it stolen and police are told its at a daughter's house because his license is suspended and he won't stop driving, that doesn't get very far as a theft. You don't need doctor's records to prove safety concerns to the DMV. You write about inattentiveness, slow reaction time to traffic situations, multiple small incidents even in parking lots and even without police reports, perhaps vision limitations or hearing limitations with refusal to use glasses or a hearing aid, inability to attend to full picture of the visual field and integrate information quickly, emotional distress when lost leading to potential to go up a wrong street, etc. All of this only triggers a behind the wheel test. If they don't come, the license is revoked and getting it back requires the written and behind the wheel.

Kathy1951 and 3pinkroses, thanks for your info, however, I have already spoken to the Chief of Police who informed me that if us kids took the cars away & Mom reported them as stolen by us that he would be forced by Oklahoma Law to arrest us for theft. Likewise, if we go out and do something to the cars so they won't run & they report it, he would arrest us for that as well. In Oklahoma the law is very limiting as to what he can do to help us. I did get DMV (finally with letter from the doctor) to send him a letter requiring him to be retested by 2/29/16 or his license would be revoked. Obviously, he still has them & is still driving & the Chief of Police said they cannot just pull him over unless he has done something wrong, like no seatbelt, speeding, etc. If they catch him doing something wrong & pull him over, then they will have the car towed away, give him a ticket & call for someone to come get him. Meanwhile, my Dad is taking 6 days worth of medicine at once, getting lost, people swindling him out of his money when he goes to the stores for Mom, because he cannot count money now nor even speak but mostly one word at a time. I know that in some states more can be done, but I even filed a report with DHS for help, but when they went for a home visit to check everything out, Mom would not speak with them. So they are of no help, except if he gets lost & a police helps him they will contact DHS. If DHS sees that I have been begging for help, then they will step in & help me get legal guardianship. Of course, even then if my Mom is a good enough liar to the judge & he/she doesn't take a close look at her physical health & see she is in no shape to even walk across the room unaided, she could still win the case. It is very difficult here in Oklahoma to force the issue & many times it takes a serious accident before anything can be done. I have done all I can legally, other than suing my parents, which I just can't afford, nor would I want to really. I have otherwise, decided to let the good Lord handle things the way that only he can. This is so hard on me, because my Dad needs a special diet for his diabetes & other issues, needs his heart & other meds exactly on schedule, he needs to be pushed to bathe now (always meticulous in the past), and the list goes on & on. Without proper care that he is not getting, he will most definately not live a whole lot longer. I am a get the job done type person, so I am really having trouble with this. I hope no one else out there has the problems to the extent we are having here with this.

Have you contacted the DMV to see when his license was, or will be revoked?

What does insurance agent have to say about his not showing up for a driving test? Will they cancel his insurance, at which time he would be notified he no longer has any coverage?

If your dad is shopping for your mom, then I'm assuming she doesn't drive. This will be a huge adjustment for both of them, which may be an added factor in your mom's denial.

As someone wrote on this forum (ff, I think), when you take away the ability to drive, you have to be ready with the alternative. The alternative is usually the family providing transportation to stores, doctors appointments and social outings. It'd be advisable for you and the sibs to start discussing among yourselves just how you can handle this. It takes compromise from both parties - the parents have to compromise on changes in the way they always do things (shop at one store, not four, working with your schedule when making appointments) and the children have to integrate the additional committments into their lives. You may be able to reduce the drama if you can present the parents with a plan to help alleviate their concerns about what happens after your dad stops driving.

Jan, I just reviewed this thread. What a mess you're in. But the only way I see to resolve this is to overrule mom. Dementia or not she is endangering lives. I find it hard to believe that any cop taking one look at this situation would arrest anyone. I talked to the local cops in my folks area and they promised to help me get Dad off the road when the time comes. But I do understand your local guys may be different.

I don't want to sound judgmental but it seems to be a situation of DAMN THE TORPEDOES, FULL SPEED AHEAD. You guys need to set mom straight and get Dad off the road. She'll scream, hate you, call the lawyer, call,the cops whatever, but I don't see that you have anything to lose. Well, your inheritance maybe. There's that........

Windy's right - we went thru this with our mom - she went nuclear, then made us responsible for keeping her life as it was. It was ugly, but Dad was off the road and everyone was safe. And about inheritance.....with AL and NH (for both parents)...nada.

Your county sounds really odd. I've never heard of Adult Protective Services not completing an investigation because the spouse of the adult at risk won't talk to them. There are other ways. Very bizarre.

Check and see if in your state, the law allows you to get your attorney fees reimbursed if you prevail at a Competency Hearing. If they have the funds, you may recover your fees. It would be worth it to have an experience attorney handle it, IMO.

Also, it sounds like mom is incompetent too. The way she's behaving sounds like she is not living in reality. I might file for both and ask the court to appoint a guardian for each. That way you don't have to deal with them as the decision maker.

In a Petition for Guardianship, some states will immediately order an evaluation of the person to be conducted by a trained professional. It's not likely they can put a spin on that. They also do interviews and tour the home. So, it's not a matter of them just showing up in court and denying there's a problem.