Can you force someone to see a doctor?

Stop! Get her her cigarettes and just let her be. When you change your behavior, she will change hers. Don't talk about carting her off anywhere. She will soon ask why you don't care. That will open a new avenue of communication. Cool it.

Bless your heart, I know you want what's best for your mom and like you I would be pushing for an X-ray. However it comes to the point where we are beating our heads against a wall and stressing ourselves out trying to take care of someone who doesn't want our care or concern. Don't beat yourself up, you are doing your best and that is all we can ask of ourselves. Pick your battles, some things just aren't worth the fight.

I don't believe you can under the current circumstances.

Recently (3 nights ago) my DH fell and hit his head, was bleeding and I had to call neighbors in to assist me in getting him up. The bleeding had already stopped and no cuts could be found. He refused to go to the ER as, in his words, "there is no cure for being 95.

I agreed as he was still in his right mind and not bleeding from the head wound. Instead I watched him carefully for signs of concussion which would have necessitated calling 911.

He fell again the next day in the bathroom, causing skin-tears on both arms. This time I was the one that knew the ER couldn't bandage him as well as I could, I've been doing it for 32 years. BUT, I took him to the doctor on Monday! They checked him over and he was ok.

I'm telling you this because as long as a person is in their right mind, I do believe they also have the right to make their own decisions. Had the need arisen, I would have overruled him and called for an ambulance.

By purchasing her cigarettes, you became an enabler - I believe it's called "co-dependent" and that I won't personally do. I was never able to get my mother to go to the doctor and told her all I could do was try and she wouldn't ever make me feel guilt. So when she called me, haughty as all get-out, telling me she had cancelled the doctor's appointment and not to come pick her up, I said I thought you would and told her to have a nice day.

Will this help you? I don't know. But at some point in life, children must grow up and not be afraid of their parents anymore. Respect is earned, not a birthright.

If your mother doesn't want to go to a physician, let her know that *whatever* it is her choice and go on with your day. It is what I did and I have no regrets. After her passing, I assisted my Dad for 7 years and he too had to learn to trust my judgement but that I would honor his decisions. I had no problems with him after that.

First, buy no cigarettes for her. Second, be smart. Tell her sweetly she needs to go to the doctor and you will taker her and then go to lunch. If she refuses, then tell her you have hired two people to take her to the doctor and she better know for sure they WILL get her to the doctor. Then ask which way would she prefer to go to the doctor. And then do it.

I had a problem like this with my husband who, it turned out, was dying of cancer. No one anywhere could figure out what was wrong and I finally I told him I was taking him to a teaching hospital in Philadelphia three hours away. Naturally he was NOT willing to go. So I gave him two choices - I said he could come with me "peacefully" or he could choose option two. I hired two men who would restrain him and take him - or he could come with just me. After the initial shock, he chose to go with me - he knew one way or another he was going - and he did. You may have to do the same thing because this was my only option. And I am glad I did bluff because it got him to go.

Call the police. Call adult protective services or any group that helps abused spouses.

Since your husband is a danger to others, he needs to be reported. Call 911 and get help now.

my husband has a mental disability but he refuses to go to a . wdoctotrhat can i do. he is getting violent now.

Sorry, I'm half asleep - I didn't mean I'm tougher than you and wouldn't worry if my mother had a major symptom, which is what I sound like back there - I meant if I were talking about someone other than my mother, someone not personally known to me.

I'm going to go and have some coffee. Morning everyone!

Darling Heidi, I do understand the frustration and exasperation :(

The only thing is, she's told you, now, about her legs (would have been better if she hadn't, given that she then refuses to do anything about it, but there it is - she has). And you've put it on the forum. And we know, and you know, that - assuming it is true that her legs are really badly swollen, and she doesn't just mean her ankles are a bit puffy after a hard day's ironing - this is a major symptom. Which means that doing nothing, while still an option, might be something you later regret.

The thing is, if it were me and not you, I'd be free to think "well, okay, you don't want to see a doctor, it's your life, I'm calling your bluff" - it wouldn't turn round and kick me in the b.t.m. if anything were to happen to her.

I don't know why I'm whittering on at you. Hope the doctor can get something moving and that, either way, your mother gets whatever medical attention she does want. I expect the truth is she has very mixed feelings about carrying on, sometimes - after all, don't we all, at least a bit?

Countrymouse, you might be right. My mom could be having serious troubles, but one thing has me cautious, and that's that one of her friends died about a week ago. My mom has shown no grief. Only response from her is she's complained about being asked to contribute $15 toward a big flower arrangement. (The funeral is out of state.) I strongly suspect part of her dark mood is due to that. She heard "Margaret died" and instead of being sad she just heard the word "died" and is thinking she's soon to die in some sort of odd transferrence. Or, my mom could just be annoyed about the attention (sounds cruel, I know) and is kicking up a fuss. My mom loves to be the center of attention and any situation that takes it from her is not welcome. But I can give her doctor a call and give a report, see what they suggest. It's just frustrating to deal with her. She could use so much help and refuses anything practical. My mother-in-law just had surgery and my mom sniffed, "What? Does she want to live forever?" Um ... well, this lady enjoys her life, so she wants to enjoy it pain-free and as mobile as possible!
All I can say is I'm very angry and frustrated about the whole situation with my mom. I was in therapy a few years back and stopped when my husband was laid off and we lost our good insurance but I'm going to see how much it costs out-of-pocket. If I can swing it or find something affordable, I'm going to try and go again. This whole situation is making me too angry and bitter and that's not going to help anyone.

Heidi, your mother needs to see a doctor. Is she on a diuretic? Is she taking it?? The thing is, this could be heart or respiratory failure and - understandably turbulent emotions aside - you don't actually want her to die unnecessarily. If she won't agree, call her doctor yourself and describe what your mother's told you. With a bit of luck, her doctor will be the militant kind who'll call her and take no nonsense. Good luck!

So frustrated! I was going to take my mom shopping Sunday since she needs a lot of stuff and it's impossible to get her to write a list. (She'll lose it or something.) She calls today and says she has to cancel. Her legs are swelling up really badly. Since her blood pressure has been high in the past and low lately, plus she has other issues (mild dementia, a stroke 10 years ago, smokes, diabetic, etc.) I ask if she'd like to get in to see her doctor. No, she does not. After talking to her for a few minutes I see she pretty much just wants to talk -- not have a conversation, but just talk -- and is ranting about this or that.
One of her friends just died on Sunday and another friend is getting a big flower arrangement to send to the family and all my mom can do is rant about her $15 cut. She is convinced this is a racket. Well, don't send the money then. Easy as that. She still has to go on. Finally I change the subject and ask again if she is willing to see the doctor about the legs swelling. No. But she assures me she's going to die very soon and I need to call her once a week so she doesn't just rot there. Never mind that I've spoken to her every other day for the last few weeks! So she wants attention but I'm frustrated because I'm trying to work and am too dumb to just cut the call short. She assures me this time she really is going to die soon. I don't know anymore. She's been dying from something for 30 years. It's crying wolf. She always gets "sick" or "near death" when she wants attention. One day she'll die and it'll be like the wolf finally came.
Is it cruel of me to say sometimes I wish she would die? If it was someone who wasn't bitter about $15 for a funeral flower arrangement or who had made-up ailments half the time or who accuses me of being mental or having my period every time I'm too quiet (or I'm too like my dad, who's been dead for 25 years) or a little too firm on the phone it'd be one thing, but this version ... I don't like her very much!

Bookluvr (love the name), I'm drawing some lines with my mom. I told her I can't take her in the afternoons because that's when I work. (Usually I can manage to get her to an 8 or 9 a.m. appointment and just be a bit late for work.) I know it's harder for older folks, but the thing that frustrates me most with my mom is she makes it all about herself. "I need this now ... or else!" One time she threatened to hang herself if she didn't get her cigarettes by noon. Things like that, they wear good humor and patience way down. I do try and pick up odds and ends for her, but honestly some days I just wish I could never have anything to do with her again. She tried as a mom but had struggles with drinking heavily for some years and she shows all the sings of a narcissistic personality disorder, so I've just gotten to the point where it feels like drudgery. It's all accusations, demands, etc., and I have the hardest time seeing her as an elderly lady who might really need help.

Heidi, my dad was like that. He would make appointments for himself (before he had his stroke). I would take leave from work. And on the the day of his appointment, he decides to not go. He doesn't tell me. I have to wonder why he's not dressing up for his appointment. "Oh, I decided not to go." This happened so many times, that I finally put my foot down. From now on, all medical appointments be made on Sunday mornings (the clinic opens half day- in the mornings.) If he needs to go to the dentist, then it has to be on Saturdays. I give him the Saturday mornings I'm off work, or he makes the appointment in the afternoon (dentist office opens all day Saturday). This way whether he goes or not doesn't affect my job.

He used to take the taxi because he refused to drive after he almost got into an accidents twice while driving. He would complain about the cost of the taxi ($10).

With regards to grocery, can you just buy your mom the essentials? Just automatically buy what she eats the most - that is not junk food. Then it's up to her to eat it or not. Keep all receipts, photocopy it if it's one of those cheap receipts that fade in time.

I am trying to keep more distance from my mom. I think she and I are having an unofficial standoff. All she seems to want is for me to go pick up pills or cigarettes or junk food. I tried to get her to give me a shopping list -- you know, for milk, eggs, fruit, that sort of thing -- so she has a balanced diet in addition to her xanax and cigarettes. Nothing. "I don't have time." I don't know how a 10-minute task can eat up weeks of her time. I'm staying away -- again. I made a doctor appointment for her Wednesday morning, before I go to work. Oh no! Impossible, she says, and she calls and changes it. I told her then, she's on her own. I'm not changing my work schedule around because my mom can't go anywhere until she's sat on her butt for four hours and smoked a pack of cigarettes, emptied her bowels and drank a pot of coffee. I've already taken time off to take her to the hospital or urgent care. But this can't go on. I was sick with a nasty cold last week, coughing so hard it actually made my head and chest feel about to burst, and all she wanted to do was call and complain about her usual beefs against the doctor's and whatnot. To add icing, she complained about "how nasty" the senior ride program people were to her. I've called them and they were nice when I sought information. Her main gripe: That they wouldn't pick her up at her time and take her to the spot she wanted to go to. It costs $1 round trip to use the service. What does she expect? Then take a cab or hire a driver to taxi her around for $10 an hour and give a couple extra for gas money. She closes her world up and then gets furious that no one is bowing to her will. And of course, she is most angry at me about it. As usual. I swear she never wanted a daughter, but just an errand person! OK, done venting. I needed that. But I just don't get it: How can someone not want to leave their place for weeks on end? And meals on wheels is no good. Their menus are unacceptable to her because they serve things like pasta!

Your parent can refuse all medical help. That is the law. The law also will arrest you for elder abuse and neglect if she or anyone else falsely accuses you of not seeking medical help or denying the parent medical attention. I was threatened with denying medical help when EMTs showed up for a 911 call as the parent was bed ridden for over a week deathly ill. the parent refused to allow them in the house. I did open up the window for them to talk to her, she demanded them to go away. Before they left, the EMTs tried to get me to sign some papers, I refused as should any of you. You would be held accountable, yet again, should the parent have severe complications or even die. The "elder abuse" laws are completely flawed. Your arrest will be considered a felony.
Your life will be destroyed.

Congratulations, Heidi! A better paid job is great news, well done you for going for it! Note: I agree with you, so to get you off to a good start the new job is all I'm concentrating on too :)

Update: It's been a busy week. I had a job interview last week and got an offer yesterday, so yay! Better pay!
Mom, though, has been through the gamut. I was feeling a bit more kindly to her, post arm break, because I wouldn't want my dominant hand in a cast, either! Sympathy is waning fast, though. After trotting around to get her pills, groceries, etc., we stop in Sunday and I notice her cast is gone. I ask, what happened? She slid it off. She put a string through it and had it hanging on the closet door, and has been hanging it on her apartment door for neighbors to see, because she thought it was funny.
Well, I called her doctor, and let them know. Told them this is just a report for the medical file. I am doing no more about it, but they should know, so if it doesn't heal well, there's a reason. (Doc wanted it on for 6 weeks, too, and my mom wore it for 12 days!)
On top of that, mom is now getting hostile again. She was going on about medical bills and I looked at a stack on the table, and then stacked them more tidily. Today she says I had a fit and threw them up in the air and made a mess. I did no such thing but I'm going to drop off some denture glue she needed and a couple whoppers (which is all she wants lately) and give her some space again. She can't help it but I'm not going to go through this garbage again. I'll give her her space since she assures she knows everything better and focus on my new job.

Even with all the evidence you have to prove your parent's illness, behaviors, dangers to themselves, etc. not all courts except your evidence. Judges love to prosecute "elder abuse" cases. There is big money in these cases. Political aspirations as well. Don't think hiring a good defense attorney will help either. Your money spent on that attorney is for a nice vacation. Attorneys are NOT defending caregivers. These cases are decided by the judge. Attorneys do not govern themselves any more. Judges do. The corruption in the legal system is out of control. Everyone is on the take. The police get bonuses for arresting "elder abuse" cases which many are "FALSE ACCUSATIONS". Until caregivers unite more and more families will be destroyed, left penniless and with felony convictions.

Your parent can refuse any medical help. It does not matter if you call the fire department or who ever else, the parent has the right to refuse medical help, or testing for dementia. You however, can be charged with denying the parent medical attention, which is called "elder abuse" and is a felony. Been there.

Good Lord! The "States" of confusion should try living with an elder with the beginnings of dementia and other ailments that impede their ability to help themselves or to make decisions. I battle every day to get rid of the "junk" that has been collected in this house for over 40 years. My siblings tell me to leave her stuff as that is what she remembers. WTH!!! I'm not getting any younger and at the rate I am going, she will outlive me! Then what??? Believe this or not but we were told by her dr at the time to report her to APS as abusing herself. They came, she screamed and yelled and told them to get out. They offered suggestions but then sent a letter basically dismissing the case

What about being accused of elder abuse? Although a family member lives about 45 minutes away, her house is a hive of piles. We were told that although we do not live with her, we are her primary caregivers (how, I don't know), and for her to live in such a mess is our fault. Be careful, is all I can say. I think laws vary by state (in my case the State of Confusion) and county.

I'm going to come back to this thread often for advice and comfort. (Rereading things, too, etc.) Mom's arm hurts due to the fracture and the cast, and her Vicodin (or something comparable) isn't helping. Doctor called her in an extra-strength Motrin Rx, which I'm picking up later. I hope it helps. She'll throw a fit if it doesn't!

They say that the caregiver is the one to take all the abuse! I truly believe that because I am feeling battered and abused....especially mentally. Keep hanging in there and Chimonger gave some valuable insight to protecting ourselves.

Thanks everyone. Yesterday I did a bit of shopping for her so she has some healthy stuff she likes. Going to check in regularly and seeing about a bit of extra help for her. She was in a good mood yesterday so there was that. I suspect she wants attention -- and I get that -- but it's frustrating that I'm often expected to be her sole source of entertainment as well as the one she gripes about everything to and who ends up being her whipping post. Really she could use some other contacts and amusements. But to see her in a good mood was a nice break. I know she's going to have her crabby spells again and my plan is to leave when she does. Just say no, not doing that, and see you later.

ba8alou said it all good luck all of you

Heidi,
It's correct that no one can be forced to get unwanted medical treatment or care.
They will stand it for just so long, and then they might cave in and beg for help....usually, they cave most if it's breathing problems--there's pretty much nothing scarier than limited breathing.
Then you can get them care.
BUT...
If she is threatening suicide, that MIGHT be grounds for calling a Social worker to report it, and calling 911 to report it to instigate them doing a "well-check"---or even a 72-hour hold to evaluate her mental health..
Advice from instructors and officials I've spoken with:
IF someone threatens suicide, they MUST be taken seriously.
Of course, they will try to say they were just kidding, or just messing with you, etc....but still, they should be taken seriously.
After that hold, if they seem OK, they will be released.
OR, they might be released conditionally.

Consequences:
She will likely get VERY angry.
She might act out in any number of ways--including seeking someone else to be her POA, or not communicating with you at all--doing things to cut you out of her life---which may or not last long.
She will likely try to retaliate somehow, then she will feel bad about acting out or retaliating and beg to get back into good graces. Or not.

YOU stick by your limit-setting! It is unrealistic to allow her or anyone to keep jerking you around like that....that is otherwise known as "co-dependent" behavior.

IF you are a caregiver OUTside her home,
you will not likely be held accountable for her getting harm.
Especially if you make called for help when appropriate--like with suicide attempts.
If Social workers are called to come to her home, and find her unable to cope with living at home, she might be admitted to an Assisted Living or other facility.
Officials will TRY to strongly encourage family to take her in--you do NOT have to do that....no matter how hard officials try to push you to do it.
IF you are caregiving under the same roof with her...

IF you are living under the same roof caregiving:
Officials might try to point fingers at a live-in caretaker--
----they would send APS to the house and create files on you, which could become an ugly bit of business.
But if you are as broken by your elder's behaviors as we got, one can reach a break-point at which it almost seems a relief to get accused--even falsely---just to get the elder OUT of our house.
But it is far better that you systematically:
==== Call 911 to instigate well-checks on your elder.
====Keep a calendar with dates/times of her comments/behaviors, and your responses and actions, on it. Make sure you list all Doc appt;s or other activities you assisted the elder getting to, shopping trips, EVERYTHING, DAILY, Over Time-----this is a log or diary-----it is admissible in court as evidence, and could help protect you....it is just about one of the only things live-in caregivers, or even live-out caregivers, have to protect themselves from false accusations.
OTHER ways to protect yourself: calling 911 each time there's any incident--immediately--911 calls MUST be recorded--that is an official record---i.e.: she falls, call them--let her tell THEM she refuses medical help--not you!
====Contact the County's Area Agency on Aging to ask about Social workers coming to do an in-home evaluation of her ability to actually safely be on her own in her home. Ask to counsel with a free lawyer about issues you have questions about.
====Keep records of EVERYthing you do with or for your elder....it's a nuisance, we aren't used to it, it feels weird having to do that--but it's NECESSARY these days.
====If your elder is abusive of you, you call 911 to report it.
If they hit or injure you, make sure you see a Doc immediately and get that recorded--pictures of bruises, anything--medical records are official, and could protect you by showing that abuse to officials. If it's emotional/mental abuse--your Counseling session records could help you in court.
Make sure that you also encourage your elder to come for counseling to help you----when they refuse, it's part of that record, and it does not reflect well for them for refusing to help you process your stress.
====IF she threatened suicide, call police to report her threats--they might have her admitted for 72-hour psych safety observation...and evaluated for ability to live alone or not.
====If you can, record her behaviors and/or verbals. Some have installed web cams at home, which are sound or motion activated--"nanny-cams". These could be invaluable tools to help evaluate elders who are not always normal, might not be easy to evaluate otherwise.

IT's VERY hard to think of our parents causing us grief....even when they've been dysfunctional all their lives, we don't necessarily expect them to start hitting us, or doing weird things---so often, we try to ignore that, or think it'll only happen once, or otherwise try to make it like it never happened.
But elders only get worse--that's the nature of the issue.
They can't help it.

It takes discipline of ourselves, when we aren't used to it, and might be sick ourselves and having hard times coping.
It's really important to ask--and keep asking, for help.

Keep posting and keeping us up to date on how things are going, on this site.
We're all here because we've been going through renditions of this.
Good group, lots of advice and support here!

Heidi; I feel your pain. all I can say is, the next time she calls with a fall or an injury, call 911 and let them come and evalute her. Let them document her refusal of medical care. If she has dementia, there is no sense in reasoning with her.

It gets difficult from the perspective of thinking preventatively. With my mom's smoking, I always say, yes, it's a bad habit, but the rare times you quit you said you felt good. Nothing. With being hard of hearing, I ask her, don't you want to be able to hear what friends and loved ones say? No. How about a specialist for your arthritis or your heart or confusion; things can be done to help you walk better, etc., or let's get a good heart checkup to rule out any serious problems. Nope. Nothing. "I've lived too long" is what she always says.
In some ways it's more difficult when I see my in-laws. My MIL is in good mind and she'll get knee surgery so she can walk around, etc. My FIL got a hearing aid and had a hip replacement so he can hear and walk around.
It hurts when a loved one tells you, indirectly, that they don't care anymore. Though I guess I'm doing the same thing in my ways by trying to build distance.
Wouldn't that be awesome if they came up with a cure for Alzheimer's and dementia? Please let it happen in this lifetime! Next week, preferably!