So dad's stubbornness has left him without a legal POA or Will despite many attempts by us kids to bring an attorney to him (nursing home)?

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So dad's stubbornness has left him without a legal POA or Will despite many attempts by us kids to bring an attorney to him (nursing home)?

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Now he has declined to the point medical staff are talking Hospice.
He's on private pay at nursing home and I'm sitting on ALL HIS bills and checkbook. Suggestions?

Elder Law Power of Attorney (POA) Will

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If he’s now too sick to make a will, or still unwilling, he will die without one. POA isn’t valid after death, so if his passing is close it won’t matter. The majority of people in the US die without a will in place. It then becomes up to probate court to make sure all of his bills are paid, if the estate he leaves is able to do so, and then to distribute what’s left to his heirs. I’m sorry your dad has put his family in this position, but it will be okay, it’s not unusual and the court system is accustomed to dealing with it.

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Thankyou for the sad but cold truth. Personally I've been pleading over 4 yrs to him to get his affairs in order. He's so stubborn then he gets very angry!!!

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Guardianship is one option. Speak with the social worker involved for suggestions. Of course when your father passes it will go to probate, and executor will be appointed and the bills will be paid. Remaining assets, if any will be divided according to the laws of your state. You might invest in one hour of time with an elder law attorney; in these times they will phone consult for reduced fee, to ask after options. Wishing you luck.

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Every thing here just feels like it is all too late...

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We have one long-time poster here whose dad wouldn't update his will. She said "you know dad, it's so sad that so much of your money will be lost to the state". Yes, it's a fib, but what I think of as a therapeutic one.

I'm sorry for all the trouble this is, and is going to cause you.

Some folks think that if they make a will, they will die. I had an elderly friend like that. She was able to be convinced to make a trust instead.

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A lot of people don’t make a will for one reason or another. I have a friend whose father was very smart and an engineer and just procrastinated every day and now he is 98 with full blown dementia and now he CAN’T draw up a will. When he dies, it will go to probate, the bills will get paid from his estate and then any left over money will go to his 4 heirs equally. It’s not unusual. People don’t want to think about dying.

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The trouble is that if attorneys see estates worth a lot, they spend many hours running up legal fees before they will let the estate finally settle.

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I think you will just have to let it go. Too late for guardianship. It takes a while and is expensive. Dad will need to be declared incompetent.

When he passes you can go to probate and be assigned the Administrator. This will give you the same rights as an Executor. Since there are no beneficiaries, though, his estate will be split between his closest living relatives.

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This is exactly what I'm wondering am I all full of worry for nothing- is it all just too late? I've been begging him for 3 years to get his things in order and receive nothing but criticism in return.

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If he hasn't given you permission to pay his bills, I don't think there is anything you can do but wait. You could possibly request a suspension of late fees and interest charges if you explain the situation to the creditors.
When he dies, he will die intestate. Then if he leaves anything, the estate may go through probate. His money can be used first to bury him. Then, his bills get paid and if there is anything left over, it is divided according to the state's intestate laws.
Try not to worry about it. It will work out. I'm sorry you are having extra stress at this sad time.

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He has given me permission to keep paying his bills. But for three years I have been asking him to please draw up how he wants things settled in his estate. and myself and my siblings get nothing in return from him except negativity.

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If you bring an attorney to a nursing home to prepare your dad’s will, any ensuing lawsuit would easily make the law school text books.

Even if you weren’t pressuring your dad, or complaining that he is not thinking clearly as your post suggests, those conclusions are no difficult stretch for a jury.

Lack of capacity, undue influence, fraud- this would be hard to defend in probate, civil and criminal court.

A lawyer interested in creating a will (1) who was first contacted and hired by the clients’ child and (2) who meets that client in a nursing home (raising on its face, questions of capacity/credibility) must be desperate for legitimate work and hold no value for his/her legal license.

Your state has laws that govern property distribution for those that die without a will.

Is pressuring him to make a will now worth risking years of legal battles, more money than you would ever get and your freedom?

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The attorney told me he would come in and assess Dad to determine if he had the capability to move forward. All I know is my one sibling is medical power of attorney and I'm stuck sitting and paying all of his bills with his checkbook!!! Please advise.

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I am sorry to hear about your situation, my mother died unexpectantly and intestate. I met with a probate attorney and due to her large estate she wanted to charge us over $100K. I bought the NOLO Probate book and followed it verbatim and I did have to wait the wait 6 month to get it finalized but I was able to save my family $100K. If you can not reason with him maybe you can be prepared and focus on being prepared to do the probate yourself. Many people talk about what a nightmare it is, but I found it pretty straightforward although I was the only heir. Otherwise I would look into guardianship. I am now struggling with my Dad who is divorced and scrambling to get his affairs in order. Best of luck to you. I know how I don't want to leave my kids due to this experience.

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What you see as being stubborn, may be that he is not in his right mind medically. I would talk to his doctor and ask if he can be evaluated for being of sound mind. If he isn't and Dr. puts this in a letter format, have the attorney now prepare necessary docs to have one of you legally appointed as his guardian. Take court docs to his bank, inform his debtors and move it forward.

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If he is truly headed for hospice and yet will not accept the need to settle his affairs, it may be out of your hands. Does he have a business or complicated estate? If not, probate post mortem is your only recourse and it will occur essentially anyone dies intestate. How is is mental health/cognition? If he has any issues in this area, call an attorney and a physician and start taking steps to evaluate his level of compentency to properly evaluate his own options. At that point, you will be able to have the court appoint you and or your siblings POA.

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If he is just stubborn, there isn’t a thing you can do. After your dear father has passed on, it will be sorted out in Probate. Some people just do not want a Will. Some won’t allow anybody to be a POA either because they are afraid to lose control in some way. My grandparents did not have a will. My mother and her siblings just agreed on how the property would be divided and it worked out fine BECAUSE they did not fight with each other and were fair. That is not always the case. If your Dad is now in Hospice, just pay his bills as usual and Probate will put a notice in 3 newspapers of his death and you have to wait a year for everything to sort itself out. It is a real pain but that is your only recourse with him in the shape he is in. Plenty of people go through this. Yes, it is a matter of stubbornness and wanting to stay in control. One last thing you could do is tell him you need to pay his bills and would he let an attorney come and do a POA. If he says no, well there you have it. Probate will handle. Good luck to you and God Bless.

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Thank you so much for your advice I had every intention on bringing an attorney to him until the pandemic hit now I am stuck and worrying sick!! The nursing home is on lockdown. Now what?

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Have him declared incompetent by a physician and file in the court for guardianship.

Get the counsel of a good estate attorney and everything should be able to fall in place in a timely fashion.

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Does guardianship supersede a financial durable power of attorney? Currently I am handling all of his finances.

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If you are worried about taking care of his bills you can go to your states attorney general website and see if they have a DPOA form. If they do, fill it out, take it and a witness to the facility and ask the facility to provide the notary (if they don't have one, hire a mobile notary) and tell dad that you need it to pay his bills.

The hospital notarized the DPOA for my dad and it has never been questioned by anyone.

The ones available on the AGs website have the state statutes that govern POA listed and that is what banks are looking for. All POAs end upon death.

We set up online banking to pay my dads stuff and I was given the PIN by him to get him cash when he wanted it.

I am sorry that you are facing losing your dad and having a financial challenge on top of it. May he and your family find peace and comfort during his final journey on this earth. Great big warm hug!

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Thank you so much for your great advice I had every intention on doing just this until the pandemic hit now I am in utter fear he's going to pass. He has always stated he wants everything divided up equally however never has taken the time to get paperwork drawn up with or without an attorney!!!! I don't even have legal access to his bank account I just pay bills as they come in.

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Hello, I really can relate to your situation, so hard to deal with. I came across a site called Crossroads. Here is the number: 1-855-567-6406. You can get legal forms, but more importantly for you, some help with getting cooperation from your father. Crossroads is a hospice care organization and I hope they have answers and advice for your particular concerns. Please take care of yourselves too during this very trying time. Bev

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Thank you, this is beyond frustrating and completely tearing our family apart and it's utterly unnecessary to do to us kids!!!

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Start by talking to his doctor and social work. If he is competent "enough" explain to dad that you can not take care of his bills or talking to the doctors about type of care without POAs. If you can get him to understand, get POAs done pronto. If not, try to set up online payment options with each financial institution and then set up automatic payments. When he "exhausts" his finances, he will need to apply for Medicaid with help from social work.

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One of my siblings is already the medical POA agent and I am the alternate is this something that they are in charge of or can I execute this if I am currently keeping up on all of his bills by handling his finances?

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What could hospice have to do with a stubborn refusal to sign a POA? Are these not two very seperate decisions concerning very different problems?I sympathize greatly with this poor apparently ill man. I am 86 and I dread becoming unable to manage my own affairs. The question is this, Why does he not trust his children?

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Sometimes it has nothing to do with trust. It is superstitious beliefs that stop people from doing end of life documents.

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Exactly what taarna said below.

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After my Dad died, my step mom was against doing a POA assignment to me or anyone. She was not keeping up with her bills or meds very well. We could see things getting worse. Our answer was to let her consult someone she loved and trusted more than me. It was her sister who told her that it was a good idea to do one. Victory in our case. We used the same technique for transferring to AL.

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Your situation sounds exactly like the one I was in a few years ago. I obtained legal guardianship. This is something you may want to consider. My father died without a will, and the courts followed standard intestate procedures. Having legal guardianship, however, enabled me to execute critical decisions regarding his care. I wish you the best during this very trying time.

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I Have one sibling who is the medical power of attorney however I'm in control of my father's checkbook and pay his bills however there is no executor there's no will and there's no financial POA! Omg

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My advice is to never wait after one or two attempts to obtain legal documents. It is much less expensive than probate and sad headaches later. contact his elder attorney and social worker, or ombudsman, now, before an emergency happens.

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May be related to POA for care: my mother told me that Uncle Sam will take care of her care, but my family and I knew that her SS and pension did not cover the costs of her care. I was her POA from 2012 until late 2013 to handle her bills.

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LOTS of people are in this situation: no powers of attorney or other estate planning. If you do not have an estate plan, the state has one for you, although you might not like it. I am currently begging people to get powers of attorney, at least, in place, now that we are all in this pandemic, and people are still hesitant to do it. How about you? Are your powers of attorney and estate planning vehicles in place? If not, then it is time to focus on yourself. The guardianship and conservatorship route seems like the only way to get legal authority to do anything now, and that ends with his death. It is what it is. Accept it and get educated on what does come next. FYI, some attorneys work on "commission" when it comes to probate. But others will work on an hourly charge if you ask. I do not recommend the do it yourself version. Yes, it could work. I used a do-it-yourself book to get a divorce long before I ever went to law school. The problem with do-it-yourself comes when you don't know what you don't know. There could be complications that end up costing you much more in the long run. And you might not be able to recognize that they are coming.

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When will people realize you do NOT allow people to refuse to make a will or take appropriate action while it is still possible to do so. If they refused, seek an attorney's help to get guardianship or do whatevever is necessary no matter how they carry on. If they are so stupid and selfish, then they deserve what they get. YOUR job is to protect yourself from what will happen because of non-action. Do whatever it takes NOW to avoid future hell. Don't put this off. When people act like this, anything that can and should be done is fine - ignore them.

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When do people like YOU realize that no one of us can force someone else to make a will? And none of us will succeed in winning guardianship over a competent person? Stop the ridiculousness here please.

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Well, I guess all you can do now is accept the crappy situation, let your frustration about it leave you and know that you will just have to deal with probate, etc. after he dies. It could have/should have been avoided but that's water under the bridge now.

It stinks but there seems to be little action that you can take at this time. The best thing may be to just come to terms with it since it is beyond your control.

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That's exactly the attitude I am getting. I've been begging the man for 3 years to get his things in order.....

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I think that even in the best of cases some items may slip by unnoticed and probate will be required. My Dad did an excellent job of setting up a will and adding me as POA/executor and my sister as medical POA. Despite that, when he died there were a few accounts and property related issues that there was not time to process. The process of probate took place over a couple years and was not a big burden. Just take it one day at a time, keep very good records, and make sure you have a plan of attack (schedule, actions, and documents you must produce) after you meet with the probate attorney.

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Re: no POA. Who is paying his bills now? Are they just piling up without being paid? I'd be concerned about the nursing home not getting paid. Once he's on Medicare hospice, he won't receive bills for that care, but the nursing home bill still must be paid.

As far as worrying about a will, every state has a method by which assets are distributed after death for someone who dies "intestate." You can Google the information for your state. This is handled in the probate process. An attorney is not always needed for that. Anyone who is named as an executor can handle the probate paperwork. If there is no executor per the will, the probate court will appoint one.

As others suggested, speak to a social worker and/or elder attorney about options.

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Well said. 👍

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Call 211 get an Ombudsman at your County eldercare help -- also call the Alzheimer's Association. Never hurts to rub shoulders with those who see these situations everyday. Good Luck-- God Bless on this Good Friday.

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Ombudsman has nothing to do with whether this man wants a will or a POA. Ombudsman is a liaison between the patient and nursing facilities.

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Speak with his State's Attorney. You really would not want his estate to go through the lengthy process of probate once he passes.

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If they are Talking Hospice, From what I have I learned of the Regulations from Upstate, NY, Anyways, Six months or less is Best when Accepting a patient. Make sure you find out what that is all about. As far as Anything else Goes, Let it go. These elderly people are stubborn as a Mule, Believe me, I know. Don't worry about the Bills, Nothing in Writing to be concerned of dealing with you or anyone....However, If everything Goes to PROBATE because of his stubborness, This will be Squared away and the Rest is in Checks to the Sibblings Left after the Fact.

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I would speak to an elder law attorney regarding the situation. If he is still alert and oriented, I would explain to him that thesebisdies need to be handled in order to protect him. I remember when I had to speak to my dad regarding drawing up a will. He was quite resistant 7ntil I explained to him that without a will the state could get involved. After hearing this, he saw a lawyer pronto.

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I tried this and was told "attorneys want nothing but your money....."
Then another three days passes and I try it again and receive the same negativity

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So dad's stubbornness has left him without a legal POA or Will despite many attempts by us kids to bring an attorney to him (nursing home)?

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