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Please have your family go through a lawyer or mediator. POA, Durable Medical and Executor positions should not be filled by multiple siblings! Our lawyer advised my parents that only one child should be assigned to each one of the duties with others assigned as successors in a specified order. Typically the POA should be an individual who lives closest to the parent and is responsible, trustworthy and able to get to the parent as quickly as possible should the need arise. Hideous sibling disagreements, misunderstandings, jealousy, and greed can suddenly surface when a parent becomes incompetent.
Tell him if anything should happen to him where he is physically or mentally incapacitated at any point, who would speak for him and care for him? Better to have it in place before anything happens. Also, do your homework before splitting up responsibilities and taking on DPOA, it can be all consuming if something does happen with him. Please be prepared yourself.
A Power of Attorney has to be done when they are completely "with it" -- once they are incompetent it takes a court order. A caregiver is a thankless job and if you have siblings they think it's easy and free. Yet true caregiving is a 24/7 job--it is back breaking and labor intensive every single moment and everyday. It's like you wake up and dread what faces you through the day. meanwhile your siblings will worry about their inheritance forgetting how expensive it is to care-give. My best advice is put them in a nursing home to avoid the drama of siblings being obsessed with the money to the point of accusing the caregiver.
I told my mom (just in the nick of time at stage 4-5 Alzheimer's but still able to understand basic things and sign her name) that I needed to be signed on the checking account to be able to pay her bills IN CASE she ever got sick or went into the hospital. I needed to be signed on to the savings account for when she passed away so I could pay her funeral expenses, that I could never afford.
I needed to know what she wanted in the way of end of life decisions, so a Power of Attorney needed to be signed also. We contacted the senior center in our town and they had a referral to a free elder law attorney. We had the first meeting to figure out what she wanted, then we picked up the papers a couple weeks later. We gave a donation. I took a copy and she got one also. I also got a letter from her neurologist and family doctor declaring that she is incompetent to care for herself and can't live alone. I think all my bases are covered. Now I have no problem in caring for her.
DPOA is what you want as POA is generally temporary and incomplete and is no longer effective when a person is deemed incompetent. DPOA ONLY gets invoked when the principal is no longer able to take care of their affairs (financial and other issues).
cetude - There was no mention of the person needing care at this time. Even if there was, without DPOA HOW will the family take care of the financials????
corinna - if you wait until the person cannot perform these duties, you CANNOT get DPOA, you must petition the courts for guardianship and stewardship. That petitioning is time-consuming and expensive, both before, during and after. DPOA is the MUCH better route to go.
To OP - What is your father's reasoning for balking at this? If he does not fully understand what DPOA is, and how specific it can be designed, perhaps taking your father to an attorney, allowing him/her to explain the process without any of you being present might convince him. Another suggestion is to print up various online posts that explain what this is AND provide the information about what occurs when one does not have DPOA but the person is deemed incompetent. If he still has his wits about him, understanding the negatives in going the court method might help sway him. He should also be fully aware that DPOA does not come into play until he is deemed incompetent. I took over mom's accounts and payments using the DPOA, but she had not formally been declared incompetent in any way. The account was easy enough because we children were already listed on the account. All creditors were easy enough to deal with in changing the address so I could make the payments was a snap with this paperwork. The only entities that will not under any circumstances recognize the DPOA are federal (IRS, SS, Medicare, and pension) - they all have their own method and/or forms (others have complained that banks balk, but in the end they really must work with you because it IS a legal document).
Just reading through many of the questions and posts on this site highlights the fact that most people do not fully understand what POA and DPOA are, and how they are used. Getting him to understand this all might help.
I have found that elders are often fearful of giving up power to control their lives. I've worked in geriatric care over 20 years, and especially aging men resist changes that are necessary to ensure their care needs. AND - adult children are often the the worst who should be talking to their parent about this. Our parents, no matter what age, still regard adult children as just that - children - who are not to be telling their parent what to do. I often ask the family, who does your mother/father trust most? Perhaps a minister, a life long friend... and I find that mothers usually trust a son rather than a daughter, men usually prefer a daughter. If the parent already has cognitive loss, you will need to consult with an attorney for advisement.
We put DPOA and Medical POA in place in case there was a time they were injured/hospitalized/incapacitated and their bills still needed to be paid or medical decisions needed to be made. It was just logical.
You should have it in place in case of emergency. Having said that, if father is of sound mind and responsible, let him run his own affairs. Being old does not mean you are no longer intelligent and in control. So if things are running fine, back off. But get the papers in place in the event that you ever do actually become needed. POA does not Take away his right to run his affairs. Dad is still the person in charge, it just gives you the ability to manage things should it become necessary.
Just because your dad is old doesn't necessarily mean he can't manage his own affairs. If he's competent and already said no, you really need to drop it! My bio dad with Alzheimer's had a POA who turned out to be a fraudster. It's his story I'm carrying and it's things like this that inspires me to speak on behalf of the most vulnerable. It's what I'm going through now that drives me to advocate for people who need a voice and someone to advocate for them against people who are trying to override someone's free will if they've already said no and don't need you. No means no, no doesn't mean yes or to keep at it until I say yes. It's situations like that is exactly why I must now advocate for others without a voice and others who are trying to still maintain their own affairs as long as they're competent. I'm speaking both for the aged competent and the incompetent as well as others with disabilities regardless of age. Yes, I'm standing up for your dad on this one. As long as he's competent and still able to pay the bills, cover his needs and not spend himself broke, you need to stop pressuring him to sign POA over to you because this is exactly what gets people robbed every day. Elder financial abuse is more common than people realize. Look at the numbers, elders lose millions including assets each year to people who took over their financial affairs, just because they chose to trust someone else to handle their money. You may just as well have put your wallet by an open downstairs window on a busy street and hope no one takes it, that's just what POA is when you give access to your money and assets. I think your dad is a whole lot more knowledgeable than you give him credit for. Elders are often smarter than we think and we really need to keep our hands out of their money as long as they can still take care of their own money and assets. Your dad has already said no to POA. Again, no means no, no don't mean yes or pressure me until I give in. Doing so will only drive a wedge between you and your dad. Back off and let him be if he's already said no. I know what I'm talking about because I'm dealing with the aftermath of elder financial fraud that involved assets and a very clever fraudster who could be targeting someone else. Your dad has every right to manage his own affairs and make his own decisions as long as he's competent and able to do so and you really need to stay out of it if he already said no. Hopefully he's put specific protections in place to protect himself from anyone who would come in and undo what he's already put in place. He's already said no, good for him! Now leave him alone and I speak on behalf of everyone else like him still managing their own affairs as long as they are still competent and able to do so. As long as the bills are being paid and he's not spending himself broke, you should not be going for POA or anything else. As long as he's feeding himself and taking care of his own needs, he doesn't need help from someone who could take advantage of him. I saw the aftermath of that very thing that leaves fraudsters to benefit from the elder. This is more common than you may realize and as long as he can manage his own affairs, leave him be. Just because he's old doesn't necessarily mean he's incapable. I knew someone years ago who ran a 16 acre horse farm all by himself. Eventually he did get some part-time help but he also cooked for himself and maintained a garden as well as did all the shopping and driving. He happened to be a World War II veteran who was also retired from his local steel mill. Besides the horse farm, he also did part-time flea marketing and horse auctions. Again, just because someone's old doesn't necessarily mean they're incapable of managing their own affairs. This person was my inspiration to take the precautions I later put in place to protect myself as I age. No one, and I say absolutely no one will come in on me and take over my money or assets. I don't need a financial POA or representative payee the way I have everything set up and operating. I think you should follow what I've been instructing others to do to protect themselves because it's my bio dad's misfortune that drives me even further into urging others to protect their own money and finances. What I described is exactly what I do and no one will ever touch my money. Depending on how well you have things set up will depend on whether or not you can successfully keep fraudsters away. When they realize they can't get nothing from you, they'll move on
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
I needed to know what she wanted in the way of end of life decisions, so a Power of Attorney needed to be signed also.
We contacted the senior center in our town and they had a referral to a free elder law attorney. We had the first meeting to figure out what she wanted, then we picked up the papers a couple weeks later. We gave a donation. I took a copy and she got one also. I also got a letter from her neurologist and family doctor declaring that she is incompetent to care for herself and can't live alone.
I think all my bases are covered. Now I have no problem in caring for her.
cetude - There was no mention of the person needing care at this time. Even if there was, without DPOA HOW will the family take care of the financials????
corinna - if you wait until the person cannot perform these duties, you CANNOT get DPOA, you must petition the courts for guardianship and stewardship. That petitioning is time-consuming and expensive, both before, during and after. DPOA is the MUCH better route to go.
To OP - What is your father's reasoning for balking at this? If he does not fully understand what DPOA is, and how specific it can be designed, perhaps taking your father to an attorney, allowing him/her to explain the process without any of you being present might convince him. Another suggestion is to print up various online posts that explain what this is AND provide the information about what occurs when one does not have DPOA but the person is deemed incompetent. If he still has his wits about him, understanding the negatives in going the court method might help sway him. He should also be fully aware that DPOA does not come into play until he is deemed incompetent. I took over mom's accounts and payments using the DPOA, but she had not formally been declared incompetent in any way. The account was easy enough because we children were already listed on the account. All creditors were easy enough to deal with in changing the address so I could make the payments was a snap with this paperwork. The only entities that will not under any circumstances recognize the DPOA are federal (IRS, SS, Medicare, and pension) - they all have their own method and/or forms (others have complained that banks balk, but in the end they really must work with you because it IS a legal document).
Just reading through many of the questions and posts on this site highlights the fact that most people do not fully understand what POA and DPOA are, and how they are used. Getting him to understand this all might help.
You should have it in place in case of emergency. Having said that, if father is of sound mind and responsible, let him run his own affairs. Being old does not mean you are no longer intelligent and in control. So if things are running fine, back off. But get the papers in place in the event that you ever do actually become needed. POA does not Take away his right to run his affairs. Dad is still the person in charge, it just gives you the ability to manage things should it become necessary.
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