Should a child of an elderly person charge them for care?

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Should a child of an elderly person charge them for care?

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I am a finanacial planner and was brought in to evaluate the following situation...elderly woman living in her home with her grown son, son's friend and her grandson all living with her. The son's friend is the elderly woman's caretaker preparing meals, assisting with her toileting (includes diapering) and bathing etc and being paid $2900/month. None of them pay rent and they only pay for internet service and "overages" on any of the household utilities (expenses that increased since they all 3 moved in). I'm looking for comments as to the "fairness" of this arrangement as some other family members think that the hired help isn't payig their fair share. Any thoughts?

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This is not fair for her to pay anything UNLESS a fair market rent for the square footage in that neighborhood, and 3/4 of the utilities, vehicle usage, fuel and the food bill is deducted from that amount before the check is written. Remember to also check on the validity of the person's pay. It sounds like this isn't a caregiver situation in the sense they have manipulated people into thinking. The only care giving being done here is the elderly person being forced to care for her son, her son's mooch friend and the grandchild. That elderly person will be a statistic if someone doesn't step in.....quickly.

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I would say a lot depends on if the son's friend is doing a good job caretaking, if he is reliable, kind, considerate, etc. If he is a good worker, he could be worth every penny, as I am assuming he is basically on call 24/7.

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I think that there are at least 3 issues here.
1) should the friend be paid for caregiving
2) should the trio pay rent
3) what about respite care

1 -- Pay the caregiver? I say yes! And preparing meals, toileting, diapering, bathing, and being available as a companion and helper are defintiely caregiving tasks! Does Friend also do light housekeeping, laundry, grocery shopping? I'd say that $2900/mo plus room and board is on the low side of the range, but you can do some checking in your specific area. If you had to bring in a live-in caregiver for your grandmother, what would it cost you?

Why should the Friend get paid? Because she is doing the work! What is more fair than that? If Mother isn't paying for her own care, what is that money used for? Probably to increase the amount each heir gets. Why should one person do an enormously hard job for free in order to subsidize the inheritance of those who do none of the work?

2. Should they pay rent? Well, not the caregiver -- room and board is part of the pay of a live-in caregiver. Does the son (and/or grandson) do household maintenance -- mow, clean the gutters, fix leaky faucets, shovel, rake, change the filter on the furnace, etc.? If so, the value of those services should be determined in your area. What would it cost Mother to get these things done if Son didn't live with her and do them?

Then try to determine what cost Son and Grandson would pay in rent for comparable living arrangements.

With those two numbers in mind, you should be able to come up with a "fair" rental amount. (My son lives with me. Having paid handyman prices for household maintenance tasks I am thrilled to have him available. I do not charge him rent.)

So, maybe after your research you determine that it is "fair" to pay Friend $3800/mo plus room and board, and that Son should pay $800/mo plus household maintenance tasks for his and Grandson's room.

If Mother is still competent to make her own decisions, the primary question is, is this acceptable to her? If she is not competent, is it acceptable to the person with POA? That is really what matters. But secondarily, do family members understand how "fair" numbers were reached?

Sometimes when family members object to paying for caregiving/home maintenance services, they do so out of concern that Mom's money won't last her the rest of her life. But very often the objections stem from seeing the inheritance dwindling away. It is not fair that one family member sacrifice so that all the others get a free ride, in my opinion.

3. Respite. No one can provide 24/7 care without breaks and remain sane. Some advance arrangements need to be made for covering periods when Son and Friend are taking some time off. This needs to be put into the plan!

It would be interesting to hear what you advise your client!

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I agree. We often undervalue the work of the caregiver. If the three are paying for internet services and overages, they are pretty much staying there at no cost to the woman. You didn't mention who bought the food, so I will assume they share in that cost, too. The value of the rent in an area such as I live would be worth $600-1000 for the part house (depending on its quality). So you are asking if $2900 plus that is too much to pay someone who is on call 24/7. Since the woman requires help with toileting and diapers, I'll assume the attendees also clean the house and such things. It sounds to me that she is getting a very fair bargain.

Now should a child charge their parent? That is between the parent and child. A question you could ask that may bring clarity is: should a person not pay someone who works full time for them? Most family caregivers are not paid. The rest of my feelings on this are like jeannegibbs wrote. I guess we should ask ourselves why parents often expect their children to work 24/7 for free so they can keep their estate healthy for others. Never has made sense to me.

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I think the answers above are right on the money and would not add anything else-I assume the caretakers in the friend of the son and maybe the mother of the child but if not that does not really matter much. I would like to know what you have given as an answer to your client and what the outcome was - can only say it is very hard to get a good caregiver either through an agency or privetly so that should be taken into consideration.

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Sounds like a wonderful arrangement to me.

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I agree wholeheartedly with jeannegibbs and jessiebelle. Since I've been my mom's sole caregiver, 24/7 for 10 years (she has MANY health issues that require me to do everything here), mom and her lawyer signed this house over to me as payment for my services, with the stipulation that mom be able to live here the rest of her life. My 3 sisters are fuming about this since they will be out of an inheritance. They do nothing to help. They do not take mom for a day, week, whatever so that I may have respite. Mom's attorney was quite specific about what it would otherwise cost mom to have someone do my job (should be jobs, plural). Over these 10 years mom's costs to other people would have far exceeded the value of this house. Another issue: my being the caregiver here has caused me to drop my own business, which was successful. I am losing my own career and that also counts for something. When Mom eventually passes, I would be without a place to live otherwise. For us, this has turned out to be the only fair option.

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The comments to this question are pertinent to me right now. My brother is the primary caregiver in my mom's home, she doesn't want to pay him because he made mistakes in the past and she's seeking revenge. She says it is to make sure I receive my share but I don't want it. Your comments will help in making my point.

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I've been caring for my mom in my home full time for about 6 years. She is only on social security so she doesn't have the funds to contribute to expenses or pay for care. Her dementia is such that I having been looking into moving her into a facility. I'm finding that the cost ranges from $3000-9000 per month at the places I've checked. So I think I'd the woman has the money, anything under the $3000 is more than appropriate. If she wasn't getting the help she's getting, she probably wouldn't be able to stay in her own home. Is she unhappy with her care? Does she have the funds? Does she want to remain in her home? If it's a yes to those questions, yes, I think it's fair.

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I have to also weigh in on the side of paying the caregiver, as long as the person being cared for is having her needs met and it is not simply an opportunistic situation for her son and her son's friend. As someone has already commented, too often the work done by caregivers tend to be minimized and devalued if the caregiver is a family member. This is not helpful for anyone. The most important thing to consider in a scenario such as this is the quality of care being provided. If the needs of the person being cared for are being met, then being in their own home, and on her own schedule is probably going to be more beneficial than being moved to a nursing home or relying on paid people from the outside coming into her home to provide her care. In either of those other scenarios, the person would need to pay for her care, if she could afford it. If she can afford it, then remaining in her home, with its familiarity and comfort, and maintaining a schedule with which she is comfortable, as far as meals, sleep and other activities, is probably best for her. If she can't doesn't have funds to pay for care, then it doesn't seem that there would be any financial benefit to the relative and his friend, and if they were doing this on a voluntary, unpaid basis, but benefiting from unpaid rent, then that's little compensation for them anyway. I would repeat and emphasize that the important consideration here is the level of the mother's care and whether her needs are being met and her comfort being put before theirs. I also don't know what the role of a financial planner is in this whole thing. If there is suspicion that the mother is being taken advantage of, then the local authorities who handle elder abuse (whether that's phsyicak, emotional or financial) should be called in to handle this. The involvement of a financial planner sounds rather fishy to me. Far too often situations like this bring out the worst in family members who feel that funds that would eventually go to them are being spent on the person's care. They are the person's funds, and they should be spent in the best interest of that person, however that works out. No one should be expected to provide unpaid end of life care, with all that entails, in exchange for room and board. It doesn't equate.

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My 93 year old mother lives with me in my house. My 54 year old daughter (school teacher) and I lived together before my mom moved in but now she lives in my mom's house as sort of a "care taker". My mom harbors the hope she may some day move back (not going to happen) and is not ready to sell her house. My daughter contributed a lot financially to the household expenses and groceries. Now, I add up what the utilities, groceries (less my personal items), her personal items if they are not with the groceries and her medicine which is mail ordered on my credit card. She reimburses me for these costs each month. I am actually trying to preserve her "nest egg" for the time that she will have to go into a nursing home. Right now she can walk (barely) with a walker but if she gets to the point where she can't walk, that will be the time. A nursing home in our area is $5,000.00 a month for just the basics. Doesn't include TV, phone, etc. So every month she is with me, I figure I've saved her around $4,500.00 for future needs. Although she is 93, longevity is in her family. One sister lived to 98 and one to 103.
I think I could justify this arrangement because of the increased laundry, (water bill and electric billl) warmer house, (gas bill) and grocery bill (cooking more). Since I am 72 and also on social security, I could not afford this arrangement without her help.

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After going back through these answers and thinking some more about the question, I'd like to add another comment. It now seems even more odd to me that the question is posed by a financial planner. A financial planner for whom? If it is the mother, and she requested your involvement, or agreed to it if someone else requested it, I suppose that's reasonable. If you were brought in by an eldercare agency to deternine whether there may be some financial abuse involved, that would also be reasonable, although I believe that nost agencies have their own investigators. If you are working on behalf of another family member without the mother's knowledge or agreement, then there is something wrong here. Unless the mother, or someone who has POA for her, or an agency which has gotten her consent, has requested your involvement, it seems to me that there may be an issue of breach of confidentiality. Some very good answers have been provided here, and it sounds as if most of them come from experience with similar situations such as you have described. Without more knowledge of the care being provided or the mother's level of competence and her wishes, or if someone has POA for her, and who that might be, it is difficult to give more specific answers here. However, the tangible and intangible things provided in fulltime care for someone who is totally dependent on others for her care are worth a good deal more than $2,900 a month, and would cost a lot more than that in other care situations. So is this situation you describe "fair"? It sounds as though it's likely more than fair to the mother. A more important question might be, is it legal and ethical?

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I agree with the comments above and want to specifically support the notion that loving care means a lot to an elderly person. I've heard horror stories of people who were hired outside the family, who simply didn't care as much as a direct family member. While sometimes the family member is simply selfish, I think it's far more often that the family member who gave up their whole life to ensure the loving transition of an elder is someone who comes with immeasurable care and concern for the individual. If the elder person is happy and well cared for, then all the math should be done carefully and the individuals providing the services should be paid, generously. My mom gives gifts to her grand children, their spouses, her children of whom I am one. I also run to her any time she calls for help. For this I get nothing extra. She might offer to pay for gas once in a while. In the mean time, I've quit my job and find it impossible to schedule anything to move forward to find another job, because she calls me at 6 am asking me to come over, I manage her cleaning service and come and go as she needs me. She is my top priority. She has been hospitalized several times in the past year and I'm sure she would have died if I didn't insist that she get the attention she needed. As with others, I would be VERY interested to learn how the math is calculated to ensure that family care givers are compensated appropriately. I have my own house and my own expenses, but I go to my mom at the drop of a hat! My stress is through the roof and I'm doing this because I love her... what's that worth? I think family members who drop by periodically should assume there will be no inheritance and the elderly person's money should go to the expense of their own personal care, in this case to the people who are keeping her home lively and filled with love and care!

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In being a caregiver myself putting in 24 hrs a day with little to no help as long as they are doing a good job in caring for her I would say yes that is fair. Nursing Facility is my area and that is the ones that aren't even that good are getting 5000 to 7000 a month. That isn't even counting the meds. When you are sole caregiver you give up everything. You have no way to hold down a job because you can't leave home. You have no life, no friends and are a virtual prisoner in the home.I think it is fair.

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You are looking for comments b/c "some other family members think that the hired help isn't payig their fair share". You might get your answer by asking those other family members if they would like to do the job for the same deal or pay an agency to send someone in and find out what that going rate would be, not to mention the time needed to oversee to make sure the aides are doing their jobs, etc . And I'm sure you know the going rate in your area for the same services. I don't hear any complaints about quality of services being given and whether the woman (whose money it is I assume being used to pay the caregiverand who is receiving care) is complaining. Those would all be factors. Diapering, bathing meals, sounds like this lady needs 24 hour care. You are a financial planner, you do the math. What is the woman who is giving the care's hourly rate working out to be? is that $93 per day (about $4 per hour? and no benefits, sick leave, vacation time? ) Is the woman being treated kindly by those living with her? Like a real family member? Does she enjoy having the grandson of her caregiver around? Does she like being with her son? These non financial things have value also. There is no way you would ever find a decent assisted living facility where she would get her own room (forget the benefits from being in her own home, assuming care is good) and one on one internsive personal care for $2900 a month. So you need to calculate in the amount of food the 3 consume and then add back in a fair wage and all the other personal and monetary benefits afforded the mother by having this group of three in her home caring for her. I wonder how much those familiy members questioning things are paying a financial planner to get involved? And by the way, maybe the son, his friend and her kid (now another question is how old is the grandson? ) might look into getting some kind of written agreement so they are protected and not, kicked to the curb and accused of wrongdoing after the fact. Who is controlling this woman's finances? Is she of sound mind to make her own decisions about who she wants in her home caring for her? I suggest you suggest to the family members to cooperate and put mom's care first and make sure she is getting the care she needs in the most appropriate setting she wants to be in.

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Do I smell a fish, a skunk?? Elderly woman is living IN HER OWN HOME. Grown son is living there also ( now) with a "friend" ( girlfriend?) and HER grandson..child. How 'bout that now? The "friend" performs tasks. Of course she should be paid for that. What exactly is the dollar amount for these tasks? How many hours a day ( and night ) does she spend performing these tasks? Surely that amount cannot equal the "rent" for three people! Math majors? where are you on this?
My Opinion: These three are freeloaders. Let them get paid for their tasks and leave it at that. If they want to live there, they should either pay for three-fourths of all utilities and rent as well as property taxes and anyother costs associated with this arrange,ment....OR , they can pay rent and keep on with the arrangement that they are now enjoying.

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Do these caregivers have money to live on their own if not receiving pay for their caregiving services? What is the quality of the care given? I believe the pay should be determined, minus their rent, minus their portion of food, utilities, etc. Then, that is their pay.

On children charging to care for their parents, I believe if someone has had to quit a job to care for their parents, absolutely they should get pay. I also believe they should be given money for any expenses to care for their parent, food, etc. I DO NOT believe in charging to care for your parents just because a nursing home charges. Did our parents tally up a bill for our care and give it to us when we became adults? Isn't it just what we are supposed to do?

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Freddie, the freeloader, and companions: Are you the client of this Financial Planner, principal1st? Or is your mother the client? Or, are other family members the ones who hired principal1st? I suspect that it is the latter.

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Not knowing the situation personally and looking at it as an outsider, family shouldn't be paid just because NHs charge BUT if the person is getting good care, wants to stay in their home, and has the finances to pay. I think it's a win win situation. Could it be that siblings are jealous that the caregivers have what they look at as being huge advantages? Then maybe the burden and funds need to be shared... I gave up my job over 9 years ago- took care of 2 grandsons for 5 years and have had my mother living with me for the last 18 years, the last 6 where she required a lot of assisantance. I feel like a prisoner in my home and I just want my life back and I can't help feeling this is so unfair to my husband. He carries the burden of having to pay the bills and even helps with my mom when he comes home from work. If she had the funds, would I make sure we got paid? You betcha. When we want some respite, it costs us 250 dollars per day to get care for her. Needless to say, we don't get away much at all... Ok. Done with the whining and pity party and putting a smile back on my face... Except, oh my 2 brothers never helped and now 1 died a year ago this month and the other is in prison.... Hah., talk about disfunctional families....

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Another way to look at this is what if Son, Friend, and Grandson move out, find great employment out of state, and just pay a friendly visit to Mother every few months?

How will Mother's caregiving needs be met? How will her property be maintained? What will this cost? How does that compare to the present arrangement? Of course, this scenario has no measurement for the intangible benefits of being care for by people you know and love vs people who are hired to do it (who you may or may not come to love.)

I suspect that the present arrangement is going to be by far the most cost-effective option.

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Although this question is posed as "should a child of an elderly person charge them for care?" the details added refers to the woman who is actually giving the care as not a family member but as "hired" help. So the only questions really are, is this woman who appears to be a 24 hour live in aide, being overpaid at $2900 per month (and any extra costs for her son to live there) for what she is performing for the mother. Is the qualfied to do the job? Is she doing the job? I don't think live in aides are expected to pay rent. and I would think some meals would be included since they get no time off to eat since they are on duty all the time. Just b/c she is a friend of the son (other than he got her the job probably) doesn't mean she should be working for lower wages (unless that's counted toward rent for the two males) But the bottom line is, if they should all move out and be replaced by hired strangers at the same or lower rate (assuming lower could be found), would the mother and the home be worse or better off, emotionally, physically and financially?

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My husband & I recently moved in with his parents who live nearby in our small town after her cancer diagnosis coincided with our need to move out of our 5-year rental and find other housing quickly. We lived in their guest quarters, paid them for our water and utility consumption, bought 75% of the groceries, did most of the cooking, cleaning, yard work, etc. I became her full-time caregiver after the first chemo round knocked her down, and continue to help out as i can now that we have moved. All of the other grown children in the family were in favor of me continuing to give care and get paid by Medicare so I could provide Mom with the same excellent care as before, and I wouldn't have to go back to work right away at a paying job...all but one, who suddenly decided that I must be a golddigger for accepting pay for being their caregiver. There's always someone who wants to throw the proverbial monkey wrench in every family!

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The one thing I have not heard spoken of is if this women has to be placed in a nursing home there is a five year look back period and any large amounts of money that was withdrawen from her bank accounts or investments which would have been at almost $3000.00 a month being spent and for her funds paying all the bills since the 3 living with her do not appear to pay rent or pay their expenses for food, tv, phone,computer, heat and electricity-there will be a problem when she gets sick or hurt and has to be in a hospital then rehab then a nursing home-been there and the first question a social worker will ask is about who owns the home-unless it has been in trust for 5 years-the home goes to the nursing home as does life insurance pensions SS and everything else.

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A lot depends on what planning is required for the future (outside of the fact that the caregiver has a handsfull job, and giving up their 'life' to assist.).
Q:Does Mom have assets that would be 'taken by Medicaid; spendown', if things get worse , regardless of the care that has been rendered for years?
Those who trade houses or assume they will get the home must consider the effects of tthe Medicaid lookback , since it has a 5 year period, the safe thing is to transfer via irrevoccable trust, sooner as opposed to later, (you don't do Medicaid planning "when it is needed", it must be done when not needed, well in advance.

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I agree with all the posters completely.In the home care if one were hired, costs money Hence, in the home care, whether it be by friend or relative should be paid. I cannot do all the calculations like the others
Also know that medi -cal (in CA) pays for a certain number of hours for in home care at the rate of about $12.50 an hour. It is only week=day coverage, no on call etc. Medi-cal doesn't care if the care giver is a relative or not. They will pay In your calculations (as someone mentioned) should be a plan for respite care for the reasons stated above. Caregivers must have a break. The financial planner being called in also made me wonder. Maybe the people living with the patient want to make sure this financial piece is being done correctly; i hope that is the case. please do let us know the outcome as all of us will benefit in some way.

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I agree with all the posters completely.In the home care if one were hired, costs money Hence, in the home care, whether it be by friend or relative should be paid. I cannot do all the calculations like the others
Also know that medi -cal (in CA) pays for a certain number of hours for in home care at the rate of about $12.50 an hour. It is only week=day coverage, no on call etc. Medi-cal doesn't care if the care giver is a relative or not. They will pay In your calculations (as someone mentioned) should be a plan for respite care for the reasons stated above. Caregivers must have a break. The financial planner being called in also made me wonder. Maybe the people living with the patient want to make sure this financial piece is being done correctly; i hope that is the case. please do let us know the outcome as all of us will benefit in some way.

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If you hire through an agency and that is the wisest because insurance will be covered it will be about 25 dollars an hour and not through an agency about 15 dollars hourly that was 3 yrs ago prices in this area of the country. The most important factor is the look back period for medicaide -many people do not realize this is true and think they can hide the facts-not so anymore.

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I have been caring for my 93 year old mom 24/7 for over a year without pay. She suffered a stroke last year and is not capable of taking care of herself. She came to live with me over a year ago. There are 5 siblings that do nothing to help me even though I have begged. They do not believe I should be getting paid for taking care of her. Right now I only charge her $600.00 a month for rent and 1/3 of the utilities and food. I work my ass off constantly and have not had one day off so far. I spoke to an elderly attorney, which I thought was nuts, cause she told me I should not get paid for taking care of her. I can't work and I am collecting ss rite now due to my own disability. SS said I can not make over $1000.00 extra monthly. So how do I get paid if its going to interfere with my own SS. Right now I hired a live in which is going to cost $4000.00 monthly versus $10,000 monthly in a nursing home only because I just need a break away from this. The lawyer also told me if anyone charges their parents it all has to get documented with the hours u spend doing everything. Who has time to do that? Also u have to claim it at the end of the year too. So my question is do I charge my mom even though the rest of the family says no, even though I am POW. Money has been flying out the door with all of her expenses. I document all of her expenses too. It's very confusing. It's ok to hire outside help and pay a lot of money but when it comes down to the caregiver getting paid everyone gets pissed off.

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I don't see what paying the caregiver has to do with the 5-year lookback, assuming the mother ever does have to apply for Medicaid. Applicants are expected to have paying their way. And I don't think who lives in the house is relevant to a Medicaid application. I didn't see anything in the question about transferring ownership of the house. Yes, the impact on a potential Medicaid application should be considered, but I don't see how that applies here.

There should be a personal care agreement or some kind of contract in place spelling out the responsibilities and the pay of the caregiver.

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I agree with jeanne and roberta..I'm a nurse and have been caring for my father who is in home hospice. My father in his 80's ..mother late 70's..she can't care for him..I have left my 65,000 dollars a year job along with other benefits to do this..and yes my mother is paying me to take care of him..not anywhere near what my earning were as a nurse..my salary now equals about 5.00 per hour 24/7..The going rates for caregivers are 13.25 to 23.00 dollars per hour in my state..The live in rates are 155.00 to 225.00 per day. Plus the caregivers can't give the patient medications..They can hand the patient the pill box that the family has set up for them..but they cannot dispense. .Do the math based on those numbers. So I'm thinking the situation is not fair.The caregiver is being underpaid. Give her a raise...Also I'm wondering where are the other family members that are questioning the situation??

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Should a child of an elderly person charge them for care?

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