Am I looking at this all wrong?????

So your brother says not outside visits b/c the adm said so. I would talk to "Judy" the adm myself and ask her why she thinks this. Does the POA object to this? it seems to me that an outing would be good for her. But plz visit with Judy.

I understand what you mean and could argue it either way. I wish I knew the answer myself. We are caring for my mother in law with dementia. She lives next door to us. Sometimes we take her places and her caregiver likes to take her to the movies or out to lunch occasionally. I like the fact that she can get out, but 9 times out of 10 it results in several hours or sometimes a day or two of of her being upset. Seems to bring on the "I want to go home" syndrome and in general she just gets pretty confused and agitated because we are taking her back to a home she doesn't remember. She has lived next to us for 3 years, but thinks she lives in her old house when we are out and doesn't understand why we arn't going there when we are going home from an outing. Her DR told us that routine is very comforting for dementia patients. What we might consider a simple outing might be way too much stimulation for them. We have noticed that when we scale back outings she seems to be more adjusted and happy on a consistent basis. We are struggling with the same issue you are. We feel bad if we don't get her out occasionally, but when we take her out it often causes more stress after and she never remembers the outing anyhow.

My bro is my mom's POA. I don't know that I can directly talk to Judy. I haven't asked my bro if I can talk to her. I would be willing to say he will NOT let me talk, as Judy has explained to him why it is not a good idea. Thanks, Tev.
I agree that any and all outings would benefit my mom. Anything that makes her feel that she is NOT a prisoner behind those walls.

My bro looks at things as how to fix them, if they're broke. He doesn't see things as making a decision outside of what someone tells him. If someone of authority says something, then it must be true mentality. Blessings

Dljorgen, I understand what you are saying and it makes perfect sense. My mom is not, and my key phrase is, to the point that she doesn't remember the outings. When I take her back, she is not upset. However, I will admit, I do not know how she is after I have left her. And I mean several minutes or hours after I leave. I write on the calendar when I am coming to visit her and explain what we can do at the facility. My bro said once a week was more than enough to take my mom out. For whatever reason my bro or sis don't take her out at all. You have a good point. Blessings

Yogi...its a tough position to be in. At least I don't (or at least to date) have to deal with someone else making the decisions. That has to be extremely hard. The rest of the family leave it up to us. On the rare times a family member wants to do something with her we would never deny it. Might try to steer it to something that we know won't overwhelm her, but would be totally grateful for her sake as well as the help for us. Sounds like your mother is not quite as advanced as my MIL so you would think it would be good for both of you. Make special memories while you can. I hope your bro realizes how lucky he is to have someone wanting to participate in helping with your Mom. So many people don't have that.

Hi Yogibear,
This is a complete guess on my part but personally, I think you should listen to your heart and what is is saying about what is best for your Mom. I would definitely try and talk to the admin. at the NH/MU as well but I would not just give up all your special outings without more explaination. I have encountered "experts" giving advice for my daughter with special needs and regretted listening to them when, in my heart, I knew better ( mostly behavior plans that I knew were not right for my girl ). Even though Alzheimer's has certain common behaviors I think it is important to remember that each person is still an individual and may not act in the exact same way. Maybe take your brother on a visit out with you and your Mom so he sees how much enjoyment she gets from them and then discuss if it is time to nix the outings. Good luck ( and I must say, I am picturing your Mom waiting for you and looking at the trees, birds and sky and it makes me smile. Very sweet)

My husband's neurologist, an internationally known and respected researcher at Mayo Clinic, encouraged as much activity and outings as my husband could enjoy. Every time we saw him he asked where we had traveled and what plans we had for activities. Routine is good and necessary (some days more than others) but novelty--new situations and views-- stimulates the mind. Our outings were as simple as a walk/scooter ride in the park or as elaborate as an Amtrak trip to Glacier. My husband enjoyed these experiences thoroughly. I certainly would have stopped if they upset him or caused uncomfortable confusion. Often it took him a while to recover his energy level ... he might be tired for the rest of the day after a stimulating outing ... but so what? He had joyful experiences and now I have the memories of those times.

Try to talk to Judy. Is she talking theoretically about what might happen if a resident is taken out, or specifically has she seen a negative reaction in your Mother? Because it really doesn't matter at all about some theory, what matters is your mother. Judy says this will be especially bad as she gets worse. If it is, stop it then. Treating her now the way she will need to be treated when the dementia gets worse makes no sense to me. Whatever small window of time you both have to savor her present level of awareness should be used to its fullest. That's my opinion.

HI Yogi, I vote for continued outings! I have POA and Health care for my Mom in memory care. I had to provide a list of 'who could take my Mom out' so you may have to be cautious about your brother so he doesn't prohibit your outings. The Director at my Mom's place will talk with any family member so I don't see why that should be a problem. But you might have to be cautious about your relationship with her as well. An additional thought (in case you aren't already incorporating this). I'd urge you not to bring your Mom back to the facility at the end of your visit time and depart. Perhaps she is having problems upon your departure that make it difficult for the aides there to handle her. I'd also think about the time of the visit. My Mom sundowns and I would never visit in the late afternoon and take her out. My sister and I take her out for ice cream (after lunch) and a short ride and this takes about 70 minutes, For my (older) Mom, this is enough. Another daughter at my Mom's place takes her Mom for coffee and hairdresser appointment each week. Always in the morning. Hope this helps.

Thank you all for your advice and suggestions. I take my mom out around 11-noon and return at about 1:00 PM. I stay with her for several minutes to get her settled back in, usually around 2:00 I leave. Usually we chat about what we did and she tells anyone who will listen what she did. We can't go too far because in her mind 20 minutes of driving is "along ways away." So, I try to make it close.

She smokes but can't smoke by herself. So, when my bro, sis or I visit she can have a couple cigarettes. Sibs smoke, I gave it up, but I still bring her some to make her happy.

I even take some of her laundry to clean as her clothes go missing. Sometimes she forgets where she puts them and other times someone will take them. My bro said he'll have to think about that to see if he wants me to do her clothes. Usually it's only a dozen pieces or less. She gets upset when something is missing so I figure what does it hurt and to keep her from being upset, I'd calm her fears of losing her clothes. He has to think about if it's OK for me to do laundry?????? My mom has me wrapped around her finger. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I will help her with anything and do anything to make her feel comfortable. When she gets upset, her thinking gets scattered or sometimes irrational. She trusts me more than my sibs and really depends on me. My mom used to do anything for me when she could. Thank you ALL. Blessings

I gave up POA and caregiving for my mom of 24/7 because I mentally couldn't handle the stress and being overwhelmed. My bro and sis felt I was, "washing my hands of mom." That was NEVER true. I took care of my mom for over 6 years along with her boyfriend. No help EVER from my sibs. My bro would call or on ocassion visit my mom but my sis would only call her on B'days and certain holidays. I also have Bipolar and anxiety issues. It was literally killing me. I had to give it up for my health. My bro and sis were mad and wouldn't let me see or talk to my mom for over five months. My mom and I are best friends and very much a like. I know what she likes and most of her wants. I KNOW, from her saying so, that she wants out to do things with me, "like we used to do."

Good morning,
As long as your outings do not make your mom's symptoms more difficult to manage you should continue to take her out if you choose to do so. Many studies show that cognitive decline is slower in people who stay active. POA allows your brother to make certain legal, financial, and perhaps medical decisions for your mom. It soes not allow him to dictate every aspect of her life and behavior.
As long as you and your mom enjoy these outings and as long as they do not interrupt her medical needs you should continue as you are.

If I'm wrong please correct me, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to legal issues. But with your mom having dementia, your bro has to have a DPOA, not just a POA, right? I just read that the agent with the DPOA "must follow your wishes" meaning your mom's wishes. So before your mom got dementia wouldn't she want contact with you and wouldn't she want that contact to include outings? As long as your mom isn't disturbed by leaving the facility what's wrong with getting her out and about to use some brain power while she still has it? I think it's a very loving gesture on your part and your mom is lucky to have you in her corner.

My bro has medical POA and rep. payee for her SSI and SSA checks. My mom has absolutely NOTHING in the way of assets. So, my bro pays her facility bills and makes medical decisions. For whatever reason, excuse me, he doesn't have the _ _ lls to ask questions of anyone in authority. I don't know if he has DPOA. If so, I don't know what for as I said, she owns nothing. Not even her checking account. Yes, she would and can still says she wants to go out. She told me NOT to listen to my bro or the workers to do as I want. She looks forward to getting out of there for awhile, knowing she still has to go back to "her" house.

Well, Bro needs to grow a pair. Just because Judy says no doesn't mean he can't ask for an thorough explanation. He's paying, he's a customer and it's his right to know what's going on. I hope he's telling you the truth and not doing this to show you who's in charge. I find it amusing your mom tells you not to listen to him!

Just wondering, maybe someone already mentioned this - I didn't thoroughly read all the responses - do you think brother does not want you taking her out because he doesn't want to bother taking her out as it is just easier to visit? And he might think it makes him look bad as he doesn't take her anywhere?

Just asking as we had a situation with an aunt who had alzheimers and only her son (an only child) to visit her in the NH. We would take her outside in the garden area in her wheelchair to give her some air. Her son questioned this??? We just told him how much she enjoyed it and it was a beautiful day. Asked if he took her outside and he said no. Maybe Judy never said she shouldn't go out.

As "AlwaysMyDuty" said - hope he is telling you the truth. Could be an "in charge" thing or he doesn't want to look bad as he doesn't bother taking her outside. My mother use to lie all the time about things, so that is where I get my questioning of others intentions. Take care.

Yogi, I like the advice of talking to Judy first and get her feedback on the outings. If you need to build yourself up to asking Judy (the Boss), then maybe you can find an NH worker who is close to mom and just ask her if your mom gives them a hard time after each outings. Then ask if it would be best if you talk with Judy (After you got your answer from the worker.) I say to ask the worker because they are the ones who deal with your mom on a daily basis. They will have first hand knowledge of how your mom is after each outings.

Yogibear I think you are a wonderful daughter for spending quality time with your Mom. If there are "normal" (no mental disability issues involved) this is a healthy way to treat an Elder and is acceptable and the right way to treat your Mother. I am telling you from my own experiences and by witnessing all the other people suffering with all types of dementia at Mom's facility.
Routine is a very crucial part of a person with Dementia's care and helps with behavior issues.
For example if every morning you take Mom out to breakfast at 8 AM. She has no problem going with you she's pleasant and happy while you are out. Your Mom will eventually be on "auto pilot" if you can't come for one day or you are late for some reason she will be waiting and wondering were you are and she may even get aggressive, and the staff can tell her why your not there, but she is stuck in that routine. She will not care or understand. Not only that, but eventually you may not be able to take her out, for other complications in health, she will never understand but spend her mornings still waiting. What the staff is trying to do is get her into the routine of caring for her. When she leaves and returns she may not remember where she went or how long or what she did but, it will confuse her because the surroundings changed and it will cause stress and stress causes more confusion restlessness and that all is not good for her care regiment. The other issue is medication and nutritional factors, eating times, blood pressure, sugar levels, and eye sight is distorted so walking becomes hazardous, depth perception is off, things look flat a curb and a road are level to them.
It may be easier if you think about her condition as a physical illness. The hardest part of witnessing a loved one suffering with dementia, is understanding the mental change that is slowly progressing, and it's almost an unrecognizable change as it progresses in the beginning stages. If she had pneumonia you wouldn't want her to go for a walk on a cold windy day. If she had a heart condition you wouldn't take her on a roller coaster ride. With any illness you want to do what is best to see that a person is not suffering and certainly you don't want to add fuel to a fire, you try to put out the flame. So by letting her get into the routine at the facility and you can communicate openly about your concerns to the staff, about her needs, likes, dislikes, it will help your Mom.
Smiles, compliments, activities, music, exercise, no drama, and daily routine... are all the best medicine for her care needs.
You won't believe the fun my Mother is having.... she works at the "hospital" she goes on walks around the lake, she's goes on dates and dances, she goes to the beach, all kinds of parties.... The amazing thing is she hasn't left the building other than activities controlled by the staff for three years now...all of this is in her imagination or dreams in any case she's having a blast. The best thing for me is when I do visit she tells me her adventures and she smiles and giggles. I got her in my own routine.... I conditioned her so that when I visit I bring her ice cream or cookies, a treat of some kind. So she lights up when she see's me and she may not remember exactly who I am "to her" but she knows I'm the "Goody Girl". I greet her by saying "you look so beautiful today" and a big SMILE!!!! AND no matter what I never let her see me upset or tell her what she needs and if I have a concern, the staff and I communicate without her witnessing it (not to upset her). She's on a need to know basis.
I also suggest if you want to spend quality time use the calender of events and activities and go with the flow at the facility, you'll be amazed. The grumpiest people get happier and lifeless people come to life. The people fixated on something snap out of it momentarily and immobile people move. It's truly amazing!!!!. LOL I go for the entertainment myself.
The Old Saying.... If you can't beat them join them...
Enjoy your Mom, in her new world, you can change that about you, do it for her and you.
The Old Saying.... If you can't beat them join them...

I have no doubt at all that wuvsicecream's approach works beautifully with her mother. Unlike Judy, I don't think one-size fits all in dealing with seniors or dementia. It does not sound to me like your mother, Yogi, is at the point yet where outside outings are contraindicated. If/when your mother reaches the point where absolute adherence to routine is essential to her well-being, then by all means adhere to routine. My husband never reached that point. Do what wuvsicecream does -- respect your mother's needs as they are right now, and be willing to change as the needs change.

Yogi, I took my mother-in-law on a mini road trip last week to see her oldest son and his wife. It's a two hour drive one way, but the weather was good and we had a nice time talking and laughing at dumb stuff. While there, she had NO idea of the why, where, what and who's of what was going on, but she eventually did remember at least her son. The next day she called me from the front office, wanting to talk to her husband (who's been dead for 5 years now) and couldn't understand why they gave her MY phone number. It took me 10-15 minutes of talking her off the ledge so t speak. It was too hard on her brain to see the son that looks so much like her dead spouse. It was too hard on her brain being yanked out of her comfort zone and being with people she no longer remembered very good. If I were you, I'd talk to this administrator that started this whole thing. I'd sit down with her/him and ask exactly WHAT did happen? Pick the brains of one or more of the people taking care of your mother, and ask them how she is when you bring her back from taking her out. You sure don't want her melting down after you leave, like my mother-in-law did. It was NOT a pretty sight let me tell ya. Good luck.

yogibear - to hell with what people thinks ,
keep on takin your mom out and about as long as she can and able to do so . as long as shes happy and knows who u are and rather be with you . then my gosh to hell with what others are crying about . geeze !
my dad dislike begin cooped up with bunch old people . it scares him ! he couldnt wait to get out of rehab and get back home . i couldnt wait either ! . i too took dad out , he loves wendys and loves to drive around jammin with pasty cline . hes all smiles ! i know ur mom is all smiles when shes with you . you ladies have a speical bond and dont let anybody take that away . tell ur brother to get over it ...

that just burns my ass ! those people at the nursing home just kills me ! i am the one that does the barking . they run and hide when they see me come in . one time i came to visit pa . he has been in the wheelchair for ho wlong ?? prob all mornin . he saw me he said oh linda plz put me to bed . so i started to wheel him to his room and one of the aid said uhhh what are u doing ? i said im going to put dad to bed , she said no no no he is not allowed to go to bed . my eyes got bigger and i growled , if my dad says he wants to go to bed then by god he s going to bed ! i will not tell my dad NO ! nobody tells my dad NO ! well it blew her away , off we go faa lala to his room and in his bed . ahhh he says , that wheelchair hurts his back !
yogibear - u just keep on doing what you mom wants and whatever makes her happy and yourself happy too . xoxo

That's all I want to do. Do what makes my mom happy, however, I understand about needing routine, as well. I think I will talk to Judy and the caregivers first. If the CG's say there is no problem then I will go to Judy and my bro.

And, yes, I do think my bro AND sis feel guilty for not taking my mom out. If it has to do with money, three miles away is a park where she LOVES to feed the ducks and birds!!!

I could understand if we were gone for days or even several hours. But it's only a couple of hours and I stay afterward for several (30-40 or more) minutes to get her back into being at her "House" before I leave. Are they next going to tell me that seeing her 3 times a week for 3-4 hours is wrong, too????? If gas comes down some I will squeeze in another day to visit her, too. I go 180 miles a week to visit her and I don't mind it at all.

yogibear - hows it going for u now ?
hope all is well , hope u and ur mom still having fun times .
many hugs xoxo

Hi Yogibear,
I think you should keep taking your mother out. You know her better than Judy does and she's only been at that facility for a short period of time. Sounds like she just needs more time to get used to her new environment. My mom has been in assisted living since January. I take her out as often as I can and she also attends a senior daycare twice a week because there is no onsite activity and she does just fine. I know everybody's different, but I say stick with the outings. Sounds like your mom looks forward to them, so I wouldn't stop.

God bless!

Hi Linda. I haven't talked to the caregivers yet to find out my mom's mood or behavior when she gets back from our once a week outing. The workers keep changing. I have been thinking of activities for her and I to do at the facility. We do things together on 2 days and on Sat. I take her out to lunch and the park or a shopping store for her to look around and show me what she may need. Sometimes she can't verbalize it but can point to it.

I went to a couple of sites, one being Alzheimers.gov and read up on a few things I was unaware of. And the obudsman of my state site. One of the two sites mentioned that a nursing home, assisted living couldn't confine a person to the facility. I take it as meaning that if the person wants to go out, they can. I will be doing some research to find out if my thought is correct. If it is, my mom and I are going out more than once a week!!! Blessings

I spoke with my bro. He said he was told by several people and Judy that the person with Alz will have more difficulty and they get confused when they are out and that they do/did not want to go back to their homes. I told him I have been told the opposite by several people, however, two people said the same thing he was saying. I told him my mom and I have always gone out and that she hasn't said she doesn't want to go home. She says she wants to go out and get away for a bit. My sis told me just take her out an additional day and if anyone says anything then address it. In good conscience I couldn't. I needed to know. He said for me to do what I thought was right and what would be best for our mom. I told him I thought doing what we could do to make our moms quality of life the best we can was what is important. I told him if my mom starts or should become problematic I would tell him and I would speak to my mom letting her know I will continue to visit but we can no longer go out. We will have to do things at her home. He was for it, I feel better and my sis agrees. We finally all communicated the way we needed to!!!!!!!!! I am happy, for now!
Blessings

Yogibear I am so happy for your family. You are absolutely correct about your Mom's quality of life, this really all that matters, it's actually the whole point. You understand your Mom and since you've talked to your brother about this, you can relax and enjoy your Mom inside or outside of her new home.

As a daughter too, I must tell you that my Mom does not have to say a word, I know what she is feeling, as she knows how I am feeling.

Yogi I think your brother is jealous and you're making him look bad, lol. You go girl and keep taking your Mom out! Why not go back around 3-4pm and see how she is or call her. She sounds like she is fine to go out. Once your Mom doesnt want to go, thats different. My Moms dr says stimuating the mind is the best thing you can do, good luck! Even in the latest stages of dementia, my Mom would perk up on a car ride.

why doesnt this administrator come to you first? Seems fishy to me that anyone would not want someone to take out their mom. If it is too much trouble for them than it is tough, that is why they get paid. Probably they don't want her asking where are you and when is she going out again.

Yogi, I am so glad this was resolved with good family communication.

Ya know, a cat who jumps onto a hot stove is smart enough not to jump on a hot stove again. But it won't jump onto a cold stove either. Most humans are smarter than most cats, and can tell the difference. Don't wipe off the stove while it is still hot, but clean it after it cools.

Don't take dementia patients on outings if it upsets them or makes their symptoms worse. (duh) But do take them on outings if they enjoy it and it stimulates them in a pleasant way. It is not necessary to treat all stoves as if they were hot unless you are a cat. It is not necessary (or helpful) to treat all dementia patients as if they all fell into the worst case scenario.

I am so glad you advocated for your mother!

Thank you ALL!!!!! My mom and I can tell what the other is thinking most times. Or at least she used to. I know we feel what the other feels as we have been so close for so many years. Since I was in my mid 20's, am now 51, my mom and I have enjoyed going on little trips or just going to a McD's to have a burger then take her home. She lived with me for a total of 8 years. The last time was for 6 years. So, we know each others ways. It was to the point I would call my mom and she had just walked in the door. Or that I was coming over to her house as as I pulled up, she was just walking out, she couldn't see me pull up from where her apartment was located.

My bro mentioned that he had regrets not knowing our mom better than he does. I told him to leave those regrets behind. You can't change the past and that what he has done with our mom within the recent months has been a good job. Though we, he and I and my sis, all got mad at each other, mainly because we were NOT communicating in a way each of us were able to understand, we have been able to look through all of that and see that our mom's comfort and happiness is what really matters. My bro regrets not knowing my mom the way I do. He told me the other day that he really hadn't thought about how, at an earlier age, I took care of my grandma, mom's mom, while I worked fulltime. For almost 2 years. My mom came over when I worked and as soon as I got home I took over. On my days off, I stayed home with my grandma, my mom had the two days off. Not time now or ever to have any of those regrets. Live life without them.

Yesterday when my mom and I went walking in a shopping mall, we were holding hands, we always do, she raised our arms and said, "Yeah, I'm with you." She had a great day as did I.

Without all of you giving me your support and encouragement, I probably wouldn't have talked to my bro about how important this issue is for our mom and me. I would have just done as he said. Thank you ALL from the bottom of my heart for helping me speak up for my mom and myself without causing a fuss or argument. We really handled it well, I believe. BLESSINGS!!!!!

That melted my heart " yeah I'm with you!". That says it all right there! XO!