Dad is trying hard to stay healthy with walking, excersizing and eatting a good diet. He's in the last stage of Parkinson's. He looks like he's getting sick with pneumonia. My mother has HOSPICE people there with her. She said they are only there for her and Dad. None of the family members. Mother and the HOSPICE nurse have decided NOT to bring my Dad to his doctor for medicine for the pneumonia or virus. Mom said Dad will die at home from the Pneumonia. I am confused. How can you not give your husband antibiotics to help him?? I feel she's just going to let him suffocate in his own infected lung liquid. Can anyone explain how this can happen?
He needs to go to ER immediately for treatment if those are his wishes.
If he chooses no treatment this is HIS decision, not the hospice and moms.
Then if he chooses no treatment, then in reality a doc could order hospice for him to (if he is deemed terminal) and then both can get the hospice care.
Good luck, this is tough times for all.
Mom is going out again today for lunch and shopping. So, I will be there with my sister when the RN from HOSPICE comes to visit him. I would like to ask my Dad if he wants treatment for his pneumonia while everyone is there. I've had pneumonia 3 times and I cannot see how dieng from that is a "humane" way to die. He was doing so good mentally and physically, too. I just need someone to explain it to me. Mom doesn't like to tell us much. And Dad speaks so soft and now with whatever virus he has, I'm not sure how great he is mentally.
Thank-you!
But if he is competent, POA really means nothing. It is the Health Care Proxy, Living Will (NYS has a MOLST) and is he DNR etc.. these end of life type decision need to be be know from him to you and everyone else most of these are if he can not verbally give consents.
Again it's his choice (unless deemed by a doctor to be not so) and or there is guardianship in place. Again, ask Dad, maybe he wants to spend his last days with his wife.
Put him in the car, take him to the ER immediately and have him checked out just to be sure. Someone who's trying to stay healthy by eating right and exercising isn't planning on dying any time soon. ... And dying from pneumonia isn't what he has in mind; that's what others think he wants because they don't want to be bothered.
So take charge girl! At least you tried to do something, and whatever happens afterwards your conscience will be clear.
-- ED
Incompetent not incapacitated is the issue. Also, if you are his medical POA, you are it when your mother is there and when she is not, period. She might not like it anymore than my step-dad likes me having medical POA for my mother, but your dad evidently trusted you to take care of him and possibly your mother is trying to bluff her way through this thinking you might not talk back and use your medical POA because you are her daughter.
Anyhow, I think both your mother and the nurse are possibly setting themselves up for a wrongful death case and the nurse should be reported to the hospice manager so the nurse can be either fired or at least moved for her collusion with your mother.
It also sounds like your mother may have put you in a classic triangle between you and your dad vs you and your mother. Like already said above, either get him to the ER or call the hospital.
Has your mother been controlling of your dad all his life? Is she angry at him for some reason to say just let him die like he is?
Best of luck. I hope you can come out of this situation having a good relationship with your Mom. These types of things can really divide families, I hope it will not hurt yours.
sad she going shopping lala and her husband s at home sick with pn , its all bs to me . u said he was healthy at one time . so mom wants him to die . by gosh girl step in and ask what he wants .
Last April, Mom called me in the middle of the night. Dad was in so much pain in his abdomen area. I went there and my father was laying on the ground next to his bed. She didn't want to call 911. I did it. I could tell by the way he was pneumonia. Got him to the ER and Dad did have aspirated pneumonia. He was in the hospital for a couple weeks. Then went to rehab. Ever since then Dad has been doing really great. He loves to be outside and walks around with his walker slowly, but, just fine.
My mother is a different sort of person. Sorta like Jeckle and Hyde. What I see is she is very inpatient with him. She either wants him to sit in the living room chair or go watch TV in his bedroom for most of the day. She wants control over everything. So, she doesn't tell us much of anything concerning my Dad. Visiting Nurses and Hopice will not talk to us, even though we're his kids. If we upset her, she will not allow us to see our father. It's happened a lot.
She did tell me that when she called their doctor to have him sign the Hospice papers, the doctor said, "I thought he was much better?" So, I have no idea on what my mother told the doctor so he would sign the order??
I spent 6 hours with my Dad today. We were outside most of that time, except for his lunch. He didn't want to go inside. When the RN came from Hospice and all his vitals were great, including his lungs and breathing. She thought because he was outside moving around, it improved his circulation and breathing. She had nothing but good things to say healthwise about him. When my mother came home, my Dad started "freezing" (Parkinson's symptom) and he wouldn't talk. I think mother makes my Dad very nervous. Iy just isn't a very good situation because she has controlf him and his healthcare.
I still do not know why Hospice is there. I try to be positive and complimentary to my Dad. It really makes him happy. I'm afraid if I put him on the spot and ask him about Hospice, he'll get nervous and freeze on me. Some how, I'm going to find out though. First is, I'm going to gently ask my mother. I've been afraid to ask her, but, I cannot deal with this anymore. I love my Dad. And I just want to make things better for him.
So many of your wise replies have helped me so much. I know what to do and I know what a POA is now, too. There's just so much involved in this.
Thank-you all again! I really do appreciate what you've written to me.
Vikki
Thanks for writing and letting us know the rest of the story plus things we did not already know, but probably are not surprised to hear while it is very upsetting to read it.
Good news to hear that you know what to do and yoiu know what a POA is now. The only way you are giong to really cut thorugh this chaos is to do what you know is right and use your POA to benefit your dad even if your controlling mother gets mad as the devil!!! " That's why you are the one trusted with the POA and such tough decisions and willingness to risk making some people angry goes with the territory.
You father is most likely on medication which means he has to go to regular doctor visits to get his prescriptions renewed. You could offer to take him to his next visit and then you could talk with his doctor about things.
I see from your profile that you began a very similar thread in June of 2009. "How do we help our father with Parkinson's?" I see that your dad at that time was 75 and your mother wanted to kick him out of the house because he fell so much. Sounds like everyone is afraid of your mother and your mother has been verbally abusive of your dad and others.
It looks to me that things have declined from your mother wanting to kick him out of the house to your mother wanting him to die at home. Back last June and this June, it sounds like your dad is not living in a safe situation, but he is still there. I believe that you can use your medical POA to get him out of there and now it is a year later. I'm sorry your elderly mother has instilled so much fear in you and it sounds like there is a whole lot of fear there. Your mother needs to realize that you are not her little girl anymore and that she can't treat you that way. All in all, try to not be in bondage to fear and do the right adult thing by getting your dad some help.
The HEPA laws in Illinois and other states are superseeded by the medical POA that evidently you have for your dad. The more I read from your other thread from last June, the more I think your mother needs a mental and physical health evaluation as well.
Now that I've read both threads, to do or not to do appears to be the crucial question of the hour?
Hospice is for the dying. Not a free service to take care of people who are sick.
If your father is not dying and wants nursing home care or wishes to do anything to stay alive then he should not even have access to Hospice services that perhaps need to go to someone else.
My dad is sick, he is in pain, he is on lots of medications. I FEEL like he should be able to get well. live forever, fight through it. I want him to go to a pain clinic, get more MRIs, try this, try that......
But he is really tired of it and he says he does not want any treatment if he gets pnemonia. He has lost his eyesight to diabetes, he is in pain from some type of brain problem either strokes or tumors the neurologist cannot make up their mind. He has been thru hell with his Nursing Home foot care and now cannot even walk.
Even though I know my dad could live another 10 years of hell with extreme and constant intervention from healthcare. I as his POA will have to honor his wishes and let him go when he can no longer refuse treatment for himself.
This is not about what you or your mom wants. This is about what he wants.
freezed up when that mom comes in , just aint good at all . ure a grown woman and maybe u could ask her if u could have ur dad into ur home and that u will take care of him ? if you can ?? he prob would rather be in a nursing home than havin to stay with his wife .
i would not want to stay with a wicked witch in the oz .
dont be afraid of ur mother , u need to start gettin a lit rough with her and let her know what ground u stand on and do some growling . put a lit fear in her if u have to . but then again u said she wouldnt let u go see ur dad sometimes . ah girl you could yell at the door and tell her u will report a abuse ! if she doesnt let u in .
the way ur mom treated u , u could turn around and give her a lit taste of it , treat her the way she treated u and maybe she;ll see the new picture and realize it .
i feel for u and ure a sweetheart takin ur dad out and enjoy outside .
As I sit here next to my mother, in her hospital room, I think I might understand your mother's thinking, a little. My mom came here vomiting blood and docs only found a small ulcer. She has been getting meds for that. Now she seems on the verge of pneumonia, with a great deal of chest congestion.
She cannot swallow correctly and is at constant risk for aspiration. She has a feeding tube, but only seems to be getting weaker, in spite of better nutrition. Her body seems ready to give out. With the arthritis that is crippling her along with right sided weakness from previous strokes, I wonder sometimes if we should "just let her go."
I would not be able to live with myself, if, for instance, I as her medical POA, stopped further treatment if she does progress into pneumonia. I want to comply with her wishes as stated in her living will, but this is not covered. Yet at times she looks at me and says "I shouldn't still be here"' so I feel torn.
I do not trust the local hospice program since they seem to be into euthanasia. I believe that some people that work for them feel empowered to take a life, when they don't see the quality of life they think the patient should have.
In a least one case, they gave a woman a "pain" shot even though she said she didn't need it. On the way out the door, the hospice worker told the family, "if she is not dead in a couple of hours,give me a call." She died within the next two hours. My pastor tells me he has seen this happen in many cases. This is murder.
I know not all hospice personal do these things and am happy to report a second hospice has opened in the area. They do what they can for the patient without interfering with God's plan.
So, feeling torn by my mother's decreasing quality of life, I can understand how a hospice worker could convince your mom to "let go" and not help your dad with the pneumonia. I cannot understand how your mother could cope with her choice, later, when she is alone and no hospice person is influencing her behavior.
I hope, by now, your dad has had proper treatment and you can rest easy, knowing that dad is being cared for.
In the meantime, I will keep watch, by my mother's bed and pray that God's Will, whatever that may be, is done.
You are right to be asking questions since it sounds like you have been "drafted" into this situation.
Here are a couple of questions you need to get answered truthfully before it is too late:
1) Who are these HOSPICE people that your mother has with her and why exactly are they there? (reference http://www.hospicenet.org/ for some explanations of the answers you might get)
2) Sounds like your father may have already agreed to HOSPICE. If so, then his wishes may include a DNR. If so, the ER will refuse to admit him so you need to check this before you rush him off to the hospital.
3) Is your mother confusing POA with Caregiver? You cannot receive POA unless you agree to serve and sign off on all the legal paperwork that must be filed with Government authorities. It is not something your mom can just hand off to you. Assuming you were alone with your father and he has a medical emergency, then you would be obligated to call 911. However, if the HOSPICE nurse and/or your mother as POA for medical were there, they are not obligated to call 911 since it would be your father's wish to die at home rather than be resuscitated in the ER.
4) How does your father want this end of life scenario to play out? If he has already made his wishes known to your mother then you need to hear it from him, if he is able to talk to you or from your mom. Either way, you have no control over the outcome, so you should not feel responsible. Your focus should be on giving your father the love and attention he needs from you without making him feel he is letting you down if he chooses to die by natural causes. That is HOSPICE is all about.