Can someone classified as incapable of making decisions sign a check?

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Can someone classified as incapable of making decisions sign a check?

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I am the POA for my mother who was recently determined by a psychiatrist incapable of making decisions and requiring 24 hour care. I have since placed her in an ALF facility. The first week and a half was positive - she seemed to be happy and relieved to not have to "worry" about these things. Enter this week and I am presuming the reality has set in for her.

She is angry and adamant about asking for all her cards and checkbooks back. ((She is currently $7K in debt with two accounts in collections and only $20K in the bank - a lot of reckless spending when she was on her own)). Clearly, it's not in her best interest to do, especially given her social security barely covers the monthly ALF expense.

Out of curiosity, if she were to get her checks - would she even be able to sign them? I am on all her bank accounts now (thank god!) designated as her POA.

Care Decisions Financial Planning Power of Attorney (POA)

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There is no reason for her to have her checks or credit cards. All her needs are supplied by the AL and you. For those suffering from Dementia, money seems to be a thing with them. My Mom wanted money because she said one of the aides or resident needed it for something. Which I know was not true.

We all hope that the facilities that we have placed Mom have done good background checks. But like in all things, there are a few bad apples. This is one reason I would not give her checks or her CCs to her. Or money. Theft by an employee. I would have nothing of any value in her room. My Mom had nothing worth stealing in her room.

Tell her the AL does not allow residents to have checkbooks or CCs. Tell her u will bring them next time and hope she forgets you said it. If she does ask after that say "oops forgot them" Time for little white lies to satisfy her.

If you haven't already, freeze her credit cards. And yes, Mom could sign the checks and have them honored. Are you on Moms accts? Ask the bank if there was some way, because of the Dementia, you could stop any checks Mom may sign from being honored. Years ago my uncle was able to do this. He found someone was signing my Grandmother's checks (once in crayon). They gave my Uncle a pin# that he put under his signature. If not on the check, they didn't cash it. Seems Gma had a book of checks my Uncle missed when he took her banking stuff out of the house.

Your POA makes you Moms representative. As such, its your responsibility to protect what assets she has. If by doing that you don't allow her excess to her bank accts and charge cards, so be it.

(You may want to tell her that her cards have been canceled by the Credit Card Companies for non-payment. Not sure if she would understand that.)

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I really appreciate your insight and my apologies to all if my question appears basic. I'm actually quite new to this as this all happened within the past two weeks. Background: I just turned 37 years old, married with a five year old at home. My husband and I had suspected something has been "off" for nearly five years now when two weeks ago, I ended up taking her to the hospital for what I would describe as a "manic episode." This was after I was called by her apartment manager due to her staff noticing erratic behavior (i.e. wandering at night, etc.)

The psychiatrist diagnosed her with a "neurocognitive disorder" - supported by displaying behavior that is borderline mania, pressured speech and flight of ideas. They would not release her without 24 hour care of which my husband and I are not able to provide and luckily, I was able to get her into an ALF that coincidentally is down the street from my home within a few days.

She seems to be more stable now on medication but I still notice the pressured speech, anger and confusion (i.e. She was yelling at me today that she has Medicaid - she doesn't- and that she couldn't be bothered with me and walked back into her room. Then, later texted me that I have no right to have her cards, etc.). But yet, she still remembers that she has been asking me for her check books!

I'm on all of checking accounts now but still waiting on the credit cards so i can get rid of them. My guess is that reality has set in and she is hating that her independence is being taken away.

I'm meeting with the head nurse tomorrow to discuss care plan as I need some help validating these things with her. I know it's my job to be the bad guy now but it doesn't make it any easier. I feel like I have two children! :/

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Would the person that was receiving the check she signed know that she is not the signatory for the account? Is her name on the checks? And I'm not even certain the bank checks very closely on who is doing the signing when a check gets cased/deposited. I had someone create checks that looked like mine and they signed them with a signature that was clearly NOT mine and even had my name spelling wrong and the bank still cashed it. I think it would at the minimum a huge hassle to straighten out any checks that she might sign and then were cashed.

I'm not even sure your POA precludes her from signing her checks; the POA designation gives you the authority to sign for her following her wishes. Using my POA I can sign for my dad as a convenience to both of us but he also can also legally sign things himself.

I know it's hard to have to be the bad guy and have her demand that you return her cards and checks but I think you have to come up with some excuses and keep putting her off until this demand dies down. Tell her the cards were cancelled because of the bills that are due and tell her that you forgot and left the checkbook at home and will try to remember to bring it next time. And keep telling her this over and over until she stops asking.

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No. She should not have her checks or cards. Could she sign them? Do you mean would it be illegal or did you mean is she physically able? I assume you mean the first as surely you know if she can still write. The last thing you need is having to clear up hot checks. I would make excuses about why I forgot the checks, had to order new ones, left them on the kitchen table, whatever and move the conversation on to a different topic. She will forget about them in time if she has dementia. If you think she is capable of ordering new checks on her own, I think you should speak to the bank to see what stops you could put in place. Does she get Mail at your home or at the ALF? would she be able to arrange that? Just because your name is listed as POA doesn’t mean she couldn’t still write a legal check on her own account.
I’m unfamiliar with not being able to make a decision being a reason someone needs 24 hour care but I can relate as my MIL would not make a decision to pay the utilities when my FIL was in the hospital. She knew what she wanted to eat, wear, how to do her hair and makeup but anything slightly out of her purview was a no go. She couldn’t even decide who should help her write the checks…..

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When my mom went to assisted living, I set up a checking account (joint with me) and got her a debit card. This was a big deal to mom and she was obsessed with not having money. She keeps 100.00 cash in her purse and never uses it but it keeps her happy. I set up a monthly billing with the hair dresser so she doesn’t have to pay each time she gets her hair done (it is weekly). She carries her purse wherever she goes even though she doesn’t use anything in it. She has a check book but I asked her to only use her card if she needs money for lunch outings. She has a friend who picks her up for lunches 2 times a month and mom and her take turns paying. I didn’t tell her I took her checks or her cards. I just did and replaced them with the debit. I also deleted all apps and passwords and created a new email for her for her phone. This was for her protection. After a while mom forgets to charge her phone so i got a phone charger that she doesn’t have to plug, just lay her phone on it. That money/checks/card was a big deal for mom but now that she has what she wants, she is calm and not obsessing. I set myself up to get alerts if she spends 1.00 on her card.

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Did the doc check her for a UTI? You are 37. Mom then in her 50's? That is so young for cognitive problems.

My mom was the same with her checkbook. There was old checks in the house so I gave those to get and she was pacified by that. My mom was always looking for her purse, I got it out of her closet, put a wallet with old cards and checkbook in it. Problem solved.

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They did and she was okay. She's 71 and was diagnosed with dementia and she has periods of psychosis. We'll have her with a neurologist soon to determine the type and stage. Thank you for your input - I think you are right!

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I had to place my mother in an ALF after finding her in a very bad state of affairs mentally, physically and financially. I had to take over her checking accounts and they were a mess. Although she was so angry at me, my mother couldn’t even physically write a check. At first I thought I was being nice and I wrote the checks out and then had her sign them although she could barely hold a pen. I did that one time and quickly figured out she didn’t even remember signing any checks and argued with me. Discussing money with her was ridiculous as her dementia caused her to be paranoid and delusional. I had met with the branch manager of the bank and she was very helpful. On the advice of an attorney, I had her doctor draft a “letter of incapacity” that stated my mother was unable to make any safe decisions regarding her care or finances without the help of family. It’s on file with the bank. I canceled all her credit cards and paid off the balances, and stopped all automatic debits for things she was. I longer using. I left the account in her name for a variety of reasons. But I do believe that if she could manage to write one of her own checks and sign it and give it to someone, the bank would have to honor it.

Basically I took over managing her finances. I keep all her checks and there is one debit card: I had the bank cancel the old one and issue a new one (I never use it because I want a paper trail). Eventually she stopped caring about her money as her dementia worsened. In the beginning I felt this constant “guilt” because somehow I had to be so hard hearted about the situation for her own good. After spending a few months straightening out her big financial mess, I soon recognized I was keeping her money safe.

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If your Mother’s room is in a facility where the door to her room is open while she goes to lunch or does other activities, I would be leery of her having money in her purse. My mother has had things stolen (clothing, shoes, money) in the facility where she lives with other residents with dementia. These other folks don’t understand the idea of personal property although the aids and nurses try to keep that from happening. But they are having trouble monitoring the rooms because of short staffing.

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Same thing at my mother's place. She asks for money to take a guest to lunch. Money gone ne,t day. New shoes in boxes, gone! Groups of nurses come in to look and take her clothes! No wonder she hates it there!!!!

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If her name is on the checking account and she writes a check and signs it, it will be processed as legit because the banks don't vet every check by the writer at the time they are cashed or deposited. It would have to be disputed after the fact and I'm not sure of the outcome. It's possible you might be stuck recovering the money from the recipient yourself. I remember reading a post about an incapacitated father who went and took out a loan to purchase a new truck and his son had a devil of a time trying to anull the transaction with the dealership, even though the son had PoA and the dad had a diagnosis.

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Others have said it-there should be nothing of value within mom’s ‘reach’.
You, as POA, are to make decisions and do for her as she would have done while in excellent mental and physical health. (I always tried to ask myself “if my mom could see herself as she is right now, what would she do?” She filled out paperwork with her will and I read through that often to remind myself what she wanted and to help me be strong in doing what I know she would have wanted-that’s why she made me POA.)
Keeping her money & things secure and having the best care possible is you doing your part for what she NEEDS.

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If mom is physically able to sign a check, then she could sign it and pay for something.

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It depends on the POA agreement you signed. However, if a doctor has signed off on her competency, the only things you are arguing over is whether you need to take on this responsibility. I'm not sure what other aspects of her life are involved (house, retirement accounts, etc.) If all she has is is a Social Security account, the ALF could handle all of it. If dementia is the problem, maybe give her a blank set of checks, but tell her the court made you her secretary, and you will mail out all of them? Then just destroy them as she writes them. Taking on a POA is a thankless job, and often a lot of work...

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I think right now is a good time for you to go to an elder law attorney to find out all you need to have in place to advocate for your mom. But to the question you are asking, she will eventually stop worrying about the check book. While she's on this particular issue, you have to be strong without making her angry, which is hard. You could use "the doctor said that for now......" or "the bank says for now...." or "I'm working on getting that to happen, but right now I'm the only person to have the card and book". Try to distract her or put off her requests any way that works. "Reality setting in" may not be what is happening. Reality might be gone for her. She's disoriented and trying to grab onto something that is hers. Perhaps you could find some things that she could help figure out with you, like deciding what color or style of bedspread or sweater she wants. She's new to not having a say about things. You are new to deciding for her. The staff at the assisted living facility should know how to distract her or engage her in activities that give her some sense of power over her life. She might be one of the younger residents in the assisted living home, and from what I've observed, those are usually the hardest residents to work with because they still have energy.

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These are all really good points and thank you for your input. You’re right, she is one of the youngest there and I think your point about this being new
to me is also valid. I know me taking control is the right thing and I just need to accept that she’s not
going to be happy about it. No different than when I tell my son no to candy because it’s what’s best for him.

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DO NOT give her access to her accounts. It may be better to try a therapeutic lie. Tell her that her accounts have been hacked and that you are waiting for new debit/credit cards. In about 2 weeks, give her a reloadable "credit/debit" gift card that you reload with a small amount of money on a regular basis. She can use it to buy small items and feel she has some options. If it gets stolen or lost, it won't be a big deal.

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Please do not be "on" your mom's accounts. If there is significant issues, you will be held liable to pay back any money.

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If she is in an ALF facility and not able to make financial decisions, as POA you should have all financial statements sent to your address and stop the statements being sent to her, if you haven't already done this. It's a best practice to remove credit cards, checkbooks, financial statements and important documents and valuables from your mother's room at an ALF. My mother's residence also recommended having only small amounts of cash in the room or in your mother's purse. It's a big deal for people to lose their financial independence, so you'll have to be very tactful about this. In her mind, this also means that she is stuck there, and cannot leave or get out if she wants to go out, if she has no credit cards or money. I also think that the "therapeudic lie" approach is best, for example saying that the card was declined and you are working with the cc company to get her accounts re-instated. Hopefully, when she no longer sees the statements, in time she'll forget about her credit cards and bank accounts. As POA, you should take over all financial matters for her. For the credit cards, if you will be keeping them, keep them in your mother's name, but ask for a card with your name on it as a second person on her account.

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I think another element here is the emotional battle that continuing to refuse the checkbook will entail. Visiting an elder law attorney and gaining clarity about what being POA means will help. Find out if you’re liable for her debts too. Knowing facts can help bolster your confidence.

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POAs are not liable for the person's debts. You have to be on the loan/credit agreement to be liable. Either as a debtor or a co-signor to pick up the slack if the original debtor doesn't pay. The only case where someone may be liable is in marriage if you try to split/sell assets the creditor may be able to come after your spouse's half of the assets, but even that I believe would be rare and is case by case.

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If they understand what the check is for you can help them sign. If you are attempting to get something illegally you are committing a crime.

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"Be able" means can she write with a pen. Yes. Also, the finance companies often don't check to see if it is fraud or wrong signature, as long as the money is in the bank to cover the checks. Your mom is ANGRY because of the LOSS of control over her life. So, she WILL yell and scream and throw tantrums. Ask the psych for the best method of COMMUNICATION with your mom when she gets like that. There are, I am sure, many ways to calm her down.. Once, I looked up methods and found that giving them cute little "toys" that work the hands and fingers can occupy their time. It is HARD, VERY hard to grow old, to change, and to not be independent any more. NO, you CAN NOT give her back her cards and checks.

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I am feeling your pain. My father, 89, has finally stopped asking for his checkbook. I later also had to take his phone (while he was hospitalized for a week with heart issues.) He was calling out of state and sent a check on a deposit to move. A Place For Mom finally stopped sending referrals. Quarterly he called and checked on his annuities and changed beneficiary’s almost as often. Telecommunication is now limited to FaceTime on his iPad. You ARE doing the right thing by taking charge. It is for her safety and well-being.

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Could you discuss this with her bank manager? Make sure you take copies of your POA because they ALWAYS want hard copies. I know my mom was obsessed with feeling like she had control over her own finances. I would write out her checks and have her sign them and once a month review her account statements. I don’t think she really understood them but at least she felt like she had some say in the matter.

Could you get some faked checks made up, let your mom sign them and tell her you will take them to be mailed? Sometimes deception is kindly.

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I would pay off debt with the $$$ she has left in bank ..work with creditors to possibly reduce it. Good luck. Don’t allow her to have credit cards or checks or any cash whatsoever.

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csansonetti: Imho, regardless of whether she COULD sign a check, the more important factor is that she should NOT be in control of her financials.

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The bank needs to tell you how to ensure she cannot write checks. (Probably dual signatures.) They're the ones who'll be honoring checks they shouldn't, so you need to make it REAL clear that they understand she is not competent to sign.

Technically, since you're on the account, too, you could drain it, close it, and open one in your name only with the funds. However, that's probably not the thing to do if Medicaid might get involved someday. (I'm not a Medicaid expert.)

The most practical thing to do is to get all that stuff away from her, but the bank needs to have it in writing as to what their responsibilities are here, too.

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Anyone, including identity thieves, can issue and sign a check.
A fiduciary (that's you, as her POA) must make sure this never happens.

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When people age and have mental problems, the very last thing in the world you would want is for them to handle financial affairs. DO NOT ALLOW THAT - no matter how angry they get. Get a Power of Attorney or whatever you need, via an eldercare attorney, and then lay the law down - YOU are handling the affairs but you will keep her totally informed. Do NOT give in or heaven help you. They cannot do this any longer. Set boundaries and handle the finances and let her rant. And if she keeps up and won't stop, DO NOT BE IN TOUCH WITH HER UNTIL SHE ACCEPTS IT.

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I agree with you that mom should not have her checks. I think that you could easily explain to her that you need to keep the checks for safekeeping because they could get lost or stolen. There is a lot fraud going-on with stolen checks, and that is a problem both of you do not need now. Therefore, if she needs to buy something she should just let you know so you could handle it.

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I appreciate everyone’s perspective. I think what I’m taking away from this is at the end of the day, I HAVE TO become comfortable with being uncomfortable - that yes, I am in essence becoming the parent and all of this is in her best interest. Sigh. They tell you it’s hard, but I don’t think you really get it until you’re in it.

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well said

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Forgive me if this was answered, but is yours a Durable POA? that one says it remains in effect if the person is declared incapacitated/mentally incompetent. I hope that's the one you have. If it isn't, you may want to consider getting guardianship also because now that she's been declared incompetent, having her sign a new Durable POA probably wouldn't be considered valid if someone challenged it. (Plus she probably would refuse to sign it.)

If you have a regular POA most likely everyone is letting you do whatever you need because they don't care about the technicality of her being declared incapable of making decisions. You could run into a situation where this technicality matters though, and it is better to have guardianship or Durable POA ahead of time before that speed bump arises.

God bless you. This is really SO hard, especially when they get adversarial. On one hand you feel for them and empathize, on the other hand you get upset they are making things hard and being unreasonable. I ask God to give me strength and he continues to grant it. May He do the same for you!

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Thank you Michelle! Yes, it is durable and I appreciate the insight

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No she couldn't sign a check. A check is an instruction to the account holder's bank to pay a certain amount to the payee. If she's incompetent to manage her bank account, she's not competent to sign a check.

Who does she want to write checks to? What does she plan to do with the cards? If it's just for a sense of security, to keep them in her purse, you can always cancel the cards, stop the checks, and let her have them. You just need to be very sure she won't attempt to use them in earnest to pay for anything.

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Can someone classified as incapable of making decisions sign a check?

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