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Resident is former military and is to the point on almost everything. She speaks her mind and comes off as being rude, but that is her nature. I myself have been told I don’t talk nice, and this came to be after having gone through a change of life. They have her eat 1 hour after everyone else, and if she is being very rude, they send her to memory care. I feel that the facility can’t confine her and this is punishment.


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Read the facility policies. If she is disturbing others then I would think they would have to handle her meals differently. It is not reasonable to expect all the other residents to tolerate rude, obnoxious behavior during meals. Maybe they could seat her away from others but that doesn't mean she will stay there.

Think about how unpleasant it is when you are eating at a restaurant and there is a child experiencing some sort of tantrum and how disturbing that is. This is no different with the exception that elderly in facilities do not have a high tolerance for bad behavior.
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They can, you have too look at the larger picture that is everyone else. As posted before how would you feel if you had to deal with rude behavior while you ate?

Please think of others and not just your mother. We live in a PC time.
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I'm pretty sure the military would have disciplined an obnoxious soldier who couldn't/wouldn't remain civil at meals, maybe you should point that out to her.
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They shouldn't be allowed to do that but they do it. I saw it happen myself
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Does the person suffer from Dementia? If so they have lost their filter and cannot be reasoned with. So, to make meals pleasant for the majority, they have felt it better the person eats in their room. Its not a punishment in the sense of the word.

If the person does not suffer from Dementia then not sure if they can keep them from eating in the dining room. They are paying to live there and it their residence. I would think, though, that the person has been asked to tone it down and when they did not do it, they were asked to eat in their room. Really, if you choose to live with others you need to know how to communicate with them.
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BurntCaregiver Mar 2022
The other residents are also paying to live there, JoAnn. Why should they have to put up with her crap?
People eating in a restaurant or drinking in a bar are paying. If a person acts up they get thrown out.
If a person living in a rent acts up and makes problems their landlord evicts them even though they're paying.
If this woman acts up and disturbs the other residents during meal times then she should be eating in her room.
Sending her to memory care if she doesn't have dementia is wrong and cruel.
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In an ALF the facility itself makes the rules. Period. And they make those rules for the greater populace at large.
My brother, in his own ALF used to laugh with me that it was a bit like being in a commune in the 60s. There would have to be community meetings to settle the squabbles. Myra wants the shades in the common room up for the natural light so she can draw. Doreen wants them down because the light disturbs her eyesight. That sort of thing. And yes, there would be the occasional disagreement.
There were in the common room tables which were game tables and mealtime tables and people ate together at a table. Sometimes one or another didn't like a table mate and moved to another table.
However, if Mom can't get along at ALL the tables, you can see that is a problem. And yes, they can ask her to eat on her own that being the case. And yes, if she is not cooperative because she is exhibiting dementia she can be asked to move to a higher level of care, memory care. And yes, in fact she can be asked to move out of the facility altogether.
At my brother's ALF we were given a huge packet of admission papers. Among them was the portion dedicated to the reasons we might ask you to leave the facility.
So this would be the norm in most facilities. I don't know if your Mom can "understand the rules" and react accordingly (in the Military that is a requirement), or if she can no longer hold her peace no matter the requirements. Discuss it with her. Don't criticize but do explain, gently, the consequences, and who is in charge. Again, being in the Military she will understand that.
As my bro used to say "I am pretty private and don't necessarily like living in a "communal setting" but you know, it's like the army; I make the best of it."
I am afraid Mom is going to have to give that a try.
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aginhippie Jul 2022
Being treated as an adult when you are not mentally deficient is not too much to ask of the people WE are paying.
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OP’s profile just says “Caregiver-Medication Passer at an assisted living facility. Want to learn the laws that protect our residents”. It sounds like the ‘rude’ person is not OP’s mother (or father for that matter). Is this an employment/ dispute issue?
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AlvaDeer Mar 2022
Thanks, Margaret, you are so right. The OP doesn't say who this elder is, or what relationship if any there is.
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This would be a matter for the resident's FAMILY to take up with the ALF if they find it to be a problem, not YOU. If it means the resident gets to stay there vs. getting kicked out for rude and obnoxious behavior, then perhaps it's a small price to pay, in the long run. Being rude and using the excuse of "that is her nature" doesn't cut the mustard, sorry. If my mother was being harassed by rude residents all the time at her Memory Care ALF, you bet your sweet bippy I'd be on the horn immediately to the executive director demanding something be done about it! Everyone needs to be able to live in peace & harmony at an ALF and not allow one bad apple to spoil the atmosphere for everyone.

Rules have to exist in residential care, otherwise, the inmates are running the asylum, so to speak.
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Toomush Mar 2022
I was partly with you up to the "inmates" and "asylum" part. These are people who are paying, either by themselves or through government funds offered on their behalf, a pretty hefty sum for care. The structure of care in most nonprofit or for profit care units is, well, pretty awful. Rudeness is sometimes a fitting response to authoritarian care that decides one size fits all. Unless this woman is unable to communicate because of dementia, several conversations should be held with her, perhaps daily, to determine where the animosity she's exhibiting comes from.
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It is called consequences for undesirable behavior. So in a way, yes, punishment. But not overly harsh.
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BurntCaregiver Mar 2022
Having her take meals in her room is not overly harsh. Putting her in with memory care is.
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You need to research your state statutes if you really want to learn your state laws on this.

Be sure and remember that laws allow for rules and EVERYONE involved has rights.
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AlvaDeer Mar 2022
Truth is that almost anywhere, ALFs are not regulated by any laws such as those that regulate nursing homes. They are a simple business in which space is rented often enough. When medications are delivered they do fall under laws of a state regulating who can pass medications, what training is required, and etc. But as to their rules of who gets to go to common dining, I am pretty certain that would be, as you say, regulated by the facility itself with the understanding that EVERYONE does have rights.
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I'm in a NH. I hate going to the dining room. I've only been three times. It's loud. The occasional loud repetitive screamer, intrusive people going from table to table. My answer to my problem is I started paying extra to have my meals delivered to my room or sometimes I go out for lunch or dinner. Better than complaining about a problem that probably can't be fixed.
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BurntCaregiver Mar 2022
Becky,

I'm not a religious person, but I say a prayer that you get well enough to get the hell out of that nursing home.
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The military past is completely irrelevant. This is civilian life, not the Marines, and the other residents aren't grunts.

If she truly can't control her behavior, then she probably needs to be in memory care, not assisted living. They have a bit more tolerance for people's quirks, but nevertheless she doesn't get to run roughshod over other residents regardless of where she lives.

This is something for the resident, her family, and the administration to handle.
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If the resident is former military she should know that there are consequences when rules and orders are not followed.
They have no right to stick her in memory care if she has not been diagnosed with dementia. Memory care is for people with dementia.
People are rude and unpleasant every day. They don't get sent to memory care.
I would be on the side of the AL with them prohibiting her from taking meals in the dining room if she's acting up and disturbing the other residents. Why should they have to tolerate her rude nonsense during mealtimes?
And, it's okay if some folks have said you don't talk 'nice'. I don't either. People often mistake plain speech for rudeness or not being nice. Not the same thing.
If this resident doesn't have dementia, she needs somebody to put her in her place and tell her plainly that either she keeps her behavior in check or get used to dining alone three times a day.
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The line that shouldn't be crossed from the administrators'/owners' perspective is what you have mentioned: "disturbing others." ** I live in a senior residence where a resident who was beginning to show signs of dementia had experiences where she imagined that someone was trying to get inside of her apartment when this was clearly not the case (+other things). She was small and thin but very strong and would go banging (not knocking) on other residents' doors on more than one floor (including mine) at ungodly hours, like 2 am, 3am, 4 am. This was not going to be tolerated and it was made known by the resident manager to her family members.

** The question of what is categorized by management/administrators as behavior that is "disturbing others" is not a black/white issue -- few things are these days. A short time ago, I realized that all my slippers were ready for the dustbin, so I had to set about buying new ones. I bought 3 pairs, and the other day I had them all lined up by my bed and realized that they were ALL the same color: gray. I told myself a joke: that I was subconsciously showcasing that it now seems that all areas are "grey." The other day, after a year-long search for a set of salt & pepper shakers to my liking, I finally found a set. I was so pleased with my purchase that I also bought at the same time their own small shelf to display them on in the kitchen. The other day I realized why I liked them so much: they are black & white. Now, at least I can truthfully say that some things in my life ARE black and white...

*
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This happened with my grandmother….she turned into a verbal
aggressive elderly person….cursing, shouting etc. she was removed from the dining room from this.
we have to protect all residents.
i can’t imagine one resident upsetting multiple residents….that would be a nightmare to handle
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Can you talk to the staff about having her eat in the dining room with the others, but maybe at a table by herself so that she is not isolated? Or does she have any other residents there who she gets along with, and could she sit with them? The staff may know. I'll bet that there are some people in her facility who can get along with her. Talk to her case manager about this. The goal should be that she should socialize as much as possible.
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If this has been “her nature” all of her life she likely learned how and when to hold her younger or engage unless of course she preferred being on her own. So if she is being told that she’s making others uncomfortable or her peers are avoiding her and she’s either sitting on her own in the dining room or being moved more often than others and hasn’t curtailed her behavior my guess is she either prefers to eat alone in her room and has cleverly found a way to make that happen or she does have cognitive decline and it has affected her to the point that she simply doesn’t have the self control and or ability to process. In which case maybe it is time to consider a move to MC. Either way I’m not sure I would consider eating in her room “a punishment”.

As others have said the rights of the other residents to enjoy their meals is an important factor here and purposely or not she has chosen to eat eat alone. But to really answer your question “Can a facility make a resident stay in their room for all meals…” reading the contract that residents or their representatives sign which probably includes “rules” or rights, procedures they aren’t the same for every facility which is why it’s useful to consider the differences when choosing one, I would refer you to that first and see if it has anything to say about a situation like this.
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I hope this doesn't come off as sounding rude...Have you really seen the facility staff tell this particular person to stay in their room or away from other residents?

My mom has a tendency to tell stories, and that sounds like a story she has told me often about staff. It seems like (in mom's eyes/mind), that staff is always changing the rules for her.

I've asked staff about some of the stories mom has told me, and that is what they are...stories.
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I WOULD TALK WITH THE STAFF TO FIND OUT WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON - IF THERE ISSUES, IT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO TALK WITH HER DOCTOR TO DETERMINE IF THERE ARE ANY KIND OF MEDICAK ISSUES TAHT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. IT IS ONLY THEN TAHT YOU CAN DETERMINE HOW TO PROCEED. OTHER HELPFUL CONTACTS BY BE YOUR LOVCAL DEPT. OF AGING AND P[OSIBLY GET SOME COUNSELLING FOR HER DEPENDING ON WHAT THE DOCTORS HAVE TO SAY.
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MargaretMcKen Mar 2022
HillardMH, several points:
a) You have been asked before not to post in CAPS. It’s shouting, and it’s rude. If you have some relevant typing disability, a better choice is to post all in lower case.
b) Please read previous posts.
c) OP is a staff member who wants to know the law – not relevant for this site. It is not this person’s business to do any of the things you have suggested, and would probably result in employment termination.
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I'm reading these answers, and although my mom hasn't "progressed" to needing to be in a facility, her personality has changed from the kind, compassionate, empathetic woman who instilled many beautiful beliefs that have guided me well in this life journey, to the angry, distrustful person we care for most days now. I'm happy her Primary Care Physician gave me an information guide on dementia, that told us what types of symptoms occur at various stages of the disease. It helped me attribute her negative behavior properly to the disease, and not blame her for it
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Sergeant777: Your profile states that you are a "Caregiver-Medication Passer" at this facility. Perhaps your query is in reference to the protocol at your place of employment and you could ask the individual in charge.
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Yes, the facility can insist that she eat in her room if the complaints of others seem warranted. All diners are entitled to a reasonably peaceful mealtime. That sounds more effective to me than insisting she be seated separately in the dining room, which, I think would more likely only worsen her behavior.
Rudeness cannot be attributed to prior military service.
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I don't know about that, but when my mom got into a fist fight on her wheelchair with another wheelchair woman, they put my mom into a time out and didn't let her call the Bingo numbers that Friday.
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Having similar problems. I’m an elder orphan and chose to enter AL on my own. I am disabled but mentally competent. They have NOT delivered on any of the promises made when I entered! The “monthly shopping trips” have been to Walmart and Dollar Tree, the activities are cooking classes, (worthless since I don’t need to cook!), aerobics, bridge and such. They say the limited slate is due to COVID but I’ve been here three years. My generation is NOT interested in bingo games and dancing to Frank Sinatra! I went with my parents to Woodstock, for the love of God!

Mealtimes were a pain due to two residents with dementia who are allowed to scream continuously and wander around grabbing food off other people’s plates! I’m eating in my room instead.

The doctor tried to put me on antideppressants and sleep meds I do not need or want. He said it would “make it easier” and “help me adjust.” This was after a meeting with the director so I was deeply frightened.

The staff uses baby talk and ends everything with a little trilling “ ‘kayyyy??” at the end! “We’re going to take you to the beauty parlor now, ‘kaaayyy?” It’s infuriating. They said I was “rude” and lectured me like a toddler when I reported it.

We’re allowed pets but I’ve awakened to find my cat gone twice. Supposedly she was “accidentally” let outside.

I didn’t come here to be treated like a child. I am an elder orphan with no children or other family and I am terrified of losing more control as I age. I have limited funds so moving to something with better amenities may be out of financial range. They now know I am looking at other options and I’m afraid of retaliation or being kept here against my will. One of the nastier nurse aides sneered that i might find what i want is not in my interest. It scared me badly, especially after the doc tried to talk me into mood-altering meds. Can they find a way to make me stay???
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Evamar Jul 2022
Aginhippie,
How can they keep you against your will?
You should change doctors, the worse advice ever.
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I would report this to the Ombudsman.
This is a form of abuse.
Isolation is abuse.
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aginhippie Jul 2022
Thank you. That’s what I think, especially after the pushes to give me antidepressants. I’m not depressed, just bored and angry at the infantilizing treatment. They want to make us easier to deal with.
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Hippie, it sounds like you are in the wrong place. My own mother had a similar problem, not facility related, and found a seniors group with monthly presentations that challenged the brain. I went with her once, and there were about 100 retired school teachers and Directors of Nursing, all with the atributes that you can expect to find. Quite formidable en masse!

It sounds as though your AL is delivering to the letter, it’s mostly that you don’t like what they deliver. In fact you have very little respect for them, even though they fit most residents. You are probably not popular with the staff – you even dislike their accents when they say your name! So what’s to do? Here are some suggestions:

1) Look for another AL. You could even contact Mensa, which I know used to be active in the USA, to see if they have a contact system for ideas from members. You can’t be the only intelligent elder with your problems, and they might have good suggestions. It sounds as though moving to another district probably wouldn’t be a big problem.

2) You could sign on for an on-line University course, in something that interests you. It will certainly challenge your brain and fill up time (my DH actually had to quit because it was too demanding). Most have organised interaction with lecturers and other students.

3) We had a poster a while ago who wrote that in the AL she knew, most high-functioning men stayed in their rooms in the day, but afterhours they all met in someone’s room and partied on the way they wanted to. Could you see if there are any women who could go this way with you? Or if the men would let you in?

4) Most libraries I know have a home delivery service for home-bound people, and the librarians go to quite a lot of trouble to find out what their users like – authors for fiction, topics for non-fiction. Check to see if you could access this service.

5) If nothing works, reconsider whether some medication might help the situation. You don’t need to be a zombie, but you don’t want to make life more and more unpleasant for you and everyone else. Something mild might actually help. I take drugs for pain, even though they semi-zombie me a bit.

I sincerely hope that I don’t end up in a situation like yours. I don’t think I’d cope too well either. I’ve never even seen a bingo game, and neither had my mother. Yours, Margaret
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aginhippie Jul 2022
They are NOT using an “accent” and my name is NOT Kay! As I explained, they are speaking in overly sweet tones, using BABY TALK. They end everything with an “ohkaaayyyy?” trilled out. “Now it’s time for dinner? ohhhkkkkayyyy?” “Now we’re going to the beauty shop, “kaaaayyy?” Now does it make better sense? I don’t think *I* am beimg “rude” or “unreasonable” by finding that offensive.

I don’t think going to a dollar store or Wally World is “shopping.” What’s wrong with a mall or department store? They gave me a lecture about “supervision” and “security” but I don’t need either of those. I’m not the only resident who has complained about it, either. Most get their kids to take them but I don’t have family. The director says to just shop online, which is what I do, but it’s annoying. Don’t you like to try things on? Have a break at a Cinnabon?

I subscribe to magazines and order lots of books. It’s stultifying.
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