Are stage 3 bedsores ever “normal” and seemingly ok to have?

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Are stage 3 bedsores ever “normal” and seemingly ok to have?

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Dad had several hospital stays for UTIs from March-Aug. One rehab facility overdosed him on laxatives and stool softeners for 20 days (laxative every night, SS twice a day). He lost another 15-20 pounds. At under110 pounds he was obviously prone to bed sores. He still had facilities about him. The personal care home he went to wasn’t what they claimed to be and while she was supposed to help out weight on him he stayed at the 99 pounds he came in on or maybe less. We were trying to get him out when he went to the ER. Rapid HR and breathing issue. We discovered he had a stage 3 sore on back, butt looked horrible but not broken skin yet, hole at the top of his penis with MRSA in it and 3 bacteria in UTIs which were bad. He did have a catheter and not circumcised. Dad died of pneumonia at the end of Aug. I have been filing complaints at the state and whatever other places I can for the two places and hospital for not doing their mandated neglect reporting. I keep hearing the whole scenario was ok because of his condition. I can’t stomach that any of these couldn’t have been prevented if he was cared for properly. We paid 6200/mth for care. 8 patients and 2+ staff most times. She put them to bed at 5 pm and there they stayed until morning and then sit in a wheelchair or couch all day. The bacteria was mainly from fecal matter so our thought was it got in via catheter and not cleaning properly. Is any of this normal? This all contributed to his death. I have a note from his hospital file that says the wound care nurse said they were not cared for properly causing them to progress yet then didn’t want to call APS. Between all of this and hole in his junk, I can’t see this stuff being justified because of his condition? Hate to repeat another question but I am getting tired of state folks trying to justify and want to know if I am crazy. Thanks in advanced.

Bed Sores Elder Abuse End of Life Urinary Tract Infection (UTI)

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Not sure your state mine is Calif. The rehab skilled nursing facility is overseen by CDPH calf dept of public health which is a federal health oversite thru CMS. When you make a complaint they will pull his records and site facility for neglect and what ever else they find they will also pull his records from the hospital as they oversee them as well. CCL Community Care licensing over sees assisted living facilities that is a State funded program. Any good attorney would not charge you any upfront fees. You have a right to request from each your dad's records and by law they have business days to give them to you. Some will charge you but can only charge you a standard rate per your state regulations. Dad's death certificate should have more than one cause of death. With pneumonia being number 1 which is usually primary. The 2nd one would be septic maybe MERSA sepsis which is what cause the pneumonia. I'm not an attorney I'm going by your concerns you wrote. Just please don't let this go. We can't help our seniors when people don't speak up. Oh an FYI the rehab and the assisted living all their wrong doing is public record. You may go on line to look them up. It's an upsetting road to get this done. But in the end you may help someone's loved one.

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Reply to LoniG1

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It saddens me to hear your story.
No, that is not normal, and from what you describe, it sounds as if your father was in fact neglected and not cared for properly.
You say you have filed complaints - but it seems as if you have received no satisfaction. Talk to a lawyer. They will let you know if they think it's worth taking on your case.
Also, many local news stations have an investigative reporter who helps their community citizens who have been wronged. That could help to expose the people who did not provide the care we expect for our loved ones.
Pressure sores are serious. As a caregiver, I am required to report this to my supervisor and I am expected to follow up after seeking treatment advice from the nurse or doctor.

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Reply to CaringWifeAZ

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I fully agree with the response from BurntCaregiver. Those types of sores are not normal or okay. When in bed, patients need to be turned/ repositioned every 2 hours. Your father should have been checked more often for bowel or bladder accidents.
I am so sorry for your loss. Your father having his cognitive faculties, as you say, must have been in great discomfort. The wound care nurse is a mandatory reporter of neglect or abuse to APS. Why she didn't want to report is a mystery to me. Contact an elder care attorney for a consult & to request all records from agencies involved. Find out what agencies license the personal care home and rehab facility involved. Your filing complaints or suits will help save others.

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Reply to JanPeck123

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They had him laying in poop and pee from 5pm to 8am the next day, probably. No shocker he has sores or issues with penis. Yes your family spent tons thinking he would be cared for and all they did was put him (and the other patients) in bed so they wouldn’t have to deal with them. I hope you pursue action against them because it might be too late for your dad but what about the other 7 patients? These care homes are a nightmare, I’m so sorry for your loss. And for the way he was lost, it’s awful.

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Reply to Jen418

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You'd be surprised (or not) putting to bed early gives many on the night shift a chance to be on phones, gossip, etc.

At the one facility one young man (who gave the appearance of being a mellow guy), described being a terror in the sheets, Lol. I hope he is pursuing his dream of being a doctor.

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I am so sorry you've lost your Dad and he suffered. Yes, ensure your Dad's suffering was not in vain. But protect yourself as no administrative whatever will bring you closure. Since the legal pathway is so clogged, unwilling and expensive perhaps a media political advocacy might be more effective. Set up a Bedsore Rescue and Support group in your area. Educate. Dress and accompany family to inspect bedsores. Track and ensure treatment via a positive and colourful entourage. Give it the byline "Dad's Legacy". If all your door are shut, then open the issue with sunshine.

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Reply to Toughpatch1

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casrice: I am sorry for your loss and send sympathies. A 5 P.M. bedtime is abnormal.

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Reply to Llamalover47

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They may have had dinner at 4, or served in their room in bed.

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Very sorry for your loss. No it is not normal and it is not ok. I hope you or someone took photos and that you have good documentation re the progressive lack of care leading to these issues. You needed an experienced attorney a long time ago but I hope you have one now. You have to have proof that is substantial and well documented to be successful in having a winnable case. That means documents, pictures, interviews, written statement and affidavits, and any other direct or circumstantial evidence you can get your hands on. An attorney will have the ability to subpoena evidence and witnesses. Good luck.

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Reply to jemfleming

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You may not be able to sue but you should be able to file a report with your state DPH and licensing. An investigation to the facility might slap a couple of fines and inspections

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Reply to MACinCT

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So sorry for your loss.

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Reply to Hothouseflower

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You really went through a horrific ordeal. Very sorry for your loss. You are still grieving and this should not be the end of your father's story.
My mom had issues with reoccurring UTIS and a Stage 4 bedsore. The hospital used a Purewik instead of a catheter. Unfortunately, bedsores are common for the elderly. The wound care doctor through Medicare provided a special mattress for my mom. Her bandages were changed often and pillow was provided to her back while sitting up. However, my mom's skin was thin. Her cardiovascular disease contributed to her skin ulcers. I blame doctors and staff for overlooking her issues, but it's not worth the anger, money and time to hire an attorney.
Every personal care home is the same, no matter how much you pay for their stay. You have to advocate as much as possible. Life is a learning experience. I hope you can find peace and comfort. Your father knows you love him! He would not want you to continue with these grievances. All of us have been angry when we see our parents not being cared for properly. I truly believe that we must carry on with knowledge. Whenever our time comes, we need someone to advocate for us.

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Reply to Onlychild2024

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Respectfully, I believe there is a difference between pursuing an action with bitterness in your heart vs taking action to right a wrong and ensure accountability. I hope the poster can move beyond her grief and loss. But the procedures at the facility should also be examined and if they are found wanting, those responsible should be held accountable.

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Condolences to you in this tragic loss. I would urge you to contact the Ombudsman for this facility and/or your area agency on aging. This may be one more incident in a pattern of complaint for this particular facility. Let them know, give them any sort of evidence/information that you have and ask that they look into it . If this facility has a web site give a no star review and explain your findings.
My very best to you as you travel this grieving journey.

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Reply to Buddycare

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With all due respect this is not just a grieving journey - it’s a neglect journey. Turning your evidence over to a government representative and then expecting them to fight your fight is a fools errand. That is not because I am anti-government - I’m not. It’s because no one is going to spend the time or care like you do about your victim of elder abuse. Sure, report it - and see if they can give you info on other complaints. Ask them to investigate, but then don’t sit on your hands. Maybe they will do a great investigation, but regardless, get your own attorney and expect that a successful prosecution through a state agency or private attorney will take constant input from you.

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Talk to a personal injury lawyer who specializes in nursing home neglect and abuse. Bed sores are not normal and to be expected. Especially advanced ones. I was a CNA for 25 years. The bedsores happen when a person isn't being repositioned regularly and they are not receiving proper hygiene and skin care. The minute your father has some skin blanching on his backside, they should have put an air mattress on the bed that inflates and deflates in different areas to relieve pressure on his body.

They did not do this and that is neglect. Talk to a lawyer.

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Reply to BurntCaregiver

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Unfortunately, they could say they don't know where he may have got it since he was in both the hospital and the group facility.

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The state I live in inspects care facilities and issues reports. Bedsores and falls are big red flags. I would look at what agencies supervise these facilities in your state. And I would definitely contact a malpractice attorney. Yes they have a bad rap, but if it weren't for the threat of lawsuits, the world would be much more unsafe. You are doing a favor to future patients.

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Reply to Jennyjenjen

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A bed sore is never normal. When my wife had them she had a vacuum device that brought blood to the would to help it heal. But once she started hospice they stopped it. Darn Medicare dictating care.

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Reply to Sample

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Keep fighting, it might save the next persons life. Some places are in it for their benefit not the patients. We had a not good incident when my husband was in rehab. I spoke up and got all kinds of appologies, but in the end took him home. It was hard and I needed help, but now three years later he is alife at almost 89 and we are glad we acted the right way. He still needs care 24/7 but with his mind good he can follow direction we are holding our own.

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Reply to Spatzi

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Good, I'm glad!!

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(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

So sorry about your dad. As you've unfortunately discovered, many group facilities aren't all that they pretend to be.

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Reply to cover9339

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Medical Malpractice suits are dreadfully difficult to win.
They cost the attorney an enormous amount of money to get the best qualified "expert" witnesses, and to have absolute proof that BUT FOR THIS the patient would have lived a long and productive life. That is that they were young money earners who now aren't dead but who will need care for life due to negligent action easily proven. Otherwise the maximum payout of 250,000 isn't enough to cover attorney expenses; and they won't win against the big guns of hospital lawyers.

They must have the following for any attorney to be interested in them.
1. A young victim who is STILL ALIVE but dreadfully impaired.
2. That victim must have full proof this THIS negligence is EXACTLY what injured them and many experts must attest to that.
3. This victim must be a money earner whose future decades of earnings were robbed by this negligence.
4. There must be solid proof that nothing else was a problem, and that but for this clearly negligent action they would have had a LONG and PRODUCTIVE life.

If you do see an attorney, OP, read him/her the above after he tells you no, and see if this is his/her reasoning or if I am wrong.

As Igloo once said here, once you are over the age limits and are "elderly" you truly aren't worth anything in the legal system in terms of being compensated for negligence in medicare care. And attorneys won't take the cases. Sadly.

As answer to your question, there seems to be many problems here starting with not controlling for diarrhea and continuing to give laxative to not proper bed, bed changes and etc. You ask if bedsore are "normal". No, never. But at times with fragile aging skin and being bedridden too long they are "inevitable" no matter what attempts are made to prevent them. Here it seems there were not proper steps taken, but that is very difficult to prove absolutely in a court of law.

I am so sorry. I agree with others. See an attorney. See one or two or three or four if it helps give you some peace; consults for malpractice are free to see them. However, I think they will, sadly, tell you they don't have a case that in our current climate they can WIN for you, and they cannot afford to put 100s of thousands into something they know historically they cannot/will not win.

I am so very very sorry for your tragic loss.

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Reply to AlvaDeer

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OP, i hope you win (lawsuit).

if you win, you’ll be one of the very few people in history who won. these hospitals/facilities have thousands of liars (oops, i mean lawyers) working for them.

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Reply to bundleofjoy

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In response to the person who replied to me. When you are in a Hospital or Rehab, you need to be your own advocate. Ask what you are being given. You can turn it down. You don't have to take a laxative, you don't have to take a sleeping pill. My Uncle had a bad reaction to a lung med he was given by his doctor and was rushed to the Hospital. After recovering from that, they sent him to Rehab where he documented everything he was given. My Aunt was there when the Nurse came in to set up an IV for him. Aunt asked what he was being given, it was the same med that sent him to the hospital. If my Aunt had not caught that, my Uncle could have died.

I had trouble with both my Mom and husband concerning blood pressure meds. For Mom I asked why so high a dosage at discharge. Answer was because she was in pain, I said not anymore. The in home nurse was upset when Mom could not sit up. Her BP was really low. Once nurse called Moms Dr and had it lowered, Mom was OK. My DH was given BP meds for AFib he was having. No AFib upon discharge and BPmeds were still prescribed. His BP is normal otherwise. We waited the 2 wks suggested to go to PCP. When she took his BP she was surprised he could even walk. Of course he was taken off.

You must be aware of LOs medical history. You must stand up for yourself. My other peeve is Hospital Drs will not consult with patients drs about care. If they did, a lot less mistakes would be made. Always see ur PCP ASAP or follow up with Specialist after a hospital stay. I had a hospital stop my Moms thyroid meds because her labs were normal. My Mom had a specialist for Graves desease and I feel he should have been consulted before her meds were dropped. Her labs were normal because she was on meds.

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Reply to JoAnn29

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Exactly, another good point - way too often meds are started in the hospital and not removed when no longer needed after discharge.

My son was vigilant about other drugs, but laxatives were his downfall. The cancer support teams push laxatives constantly and he had developed a mental dependence on laxatives.

And yes, I began to realize that I had a big responsibility to research and gatekeep.

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Just to add to others, I do not have much knowledge in this topic, but I've heard of people using for only 1 dollars.

This is so the courts know your not out for money but for the truth.

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Reply to Anxietynacy

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you’re not crazy. it’s not normal. it’s not acceptable. but they have thousands of lawyers to fight you. you need a lawyer.

regarding:
“This all contributed to his death.”

you’re not a doctor. your opinion on what contributed to the cause of death (COD) is irrelevant.

you need an official doctor’s opinion.

even if it turns out the neglect didn’t contribute to COD, you might still have a case against neglect in general. you need a lawyer. every case is different.

even if you have a good case, you might still lose. courts are corrupt too and sometimes cover up for facilities/hospitals.

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Reply to bundleofjoy

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Thank you! The death certificate says pneumonia and the pneumonia panel had the same type bacteria as the UTIs and wounds. The UTI bacteria specifically states leads to that and prognosis is poor. So there’s a bit more info. It’s a journey

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IMO this is a clear cut case of abuse by neglect. I suggest consulting specifically with a Medical Malpractice Attorney. You may or may not ultimately be awarded money via a lawsuit, but consider whether money is your only objective here. Making a public stand for justice and possibly saving even one person from going through what your mom did in the future may be as valuable as money. Try to find a medical malpractice attorney that will accept your case on a contingency basis.
So sorry that this happened to your mother and your family. This rehab unit is a danger to patients.

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Reply to LostinPlace

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Thanks. It’s never been money. Dad was almost 87. Its accountability. Hospitals are mandated reporters in Georgia and probably most states, just like child abuse reporting. The facilities were bad enough the hospital choosing not to report it even though the wound care nurse said it was not taken care of properly is another thing that needs fixed. That’s the tough one. They’re all tough to complain on. But the hospital of course did an internal investigation and found no wrongdoing and won’t release the report. it’s sickening. But I have time and I’m tenacious.

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The one thing I hate with hospitals and rehabs, they think someone needs to go everyday. Not all peoples bodies work this way. They did this with Mom everyday. One laxative was too harsh. Stool softeners did no good. Phillips was the only thing thatvworked. My worst fear is going to a Hospital and especially rehab.

My daughter is a woundcare nurse in a NH. Those sores should have been seen by one. Even pressure points need to be watched. There are Kennedy ulcers that show up when the body is dying. This is a break down of the skin, not because of negligence.

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Reply to JoAnn29

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Yes - I wished more people realized what you are saying. I have wondered if they lay on the laxatives so much because they don't want to manually deal with impaction.

My son developed a bum sore when he was briefly hospitalized for a broken femur and hip. They kept pushing the laxatives and he developed diarrhea.

The rehab wound care nurse helped a good deal, but the situation totally resolved once I got him home and stopped the constant laxatives.

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I’m sorry for your loss and for all your dad endured. Bedsores are never normal, they require quick and vigilant treatment. I’m glad you’ve done reporting for this neglect. You’re not crazy at all. No idea if you can get a lawyer to make a case out of this, but I truly wish you healing and peace

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Reply to Daughterof1930

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Thank you! It’s tough sort of re-living it each time I send pics or write it up. I need to post lessons learned for others. I know there are a lot of families out there that I think see Mom or Dad dressed and seemingly fed and think all is good. Nope. We went daily and tried to fix what we saw.

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"Bed sores" Pressure sores are NOT "normal"
None of what you described is "normal"
I feel sorry for you and for your dad for the neglect that he endured.
Now ... what will you do with that?
Sue? for what and for how much?
Your dad had several conditions that weakened him to the point that even 1 of those conditions alone may have caused his death. And if you did sue any case would take so long to go through court.
I also doubt you would get a lawyer to take the case as any monetary award would not be worth their time. (sorry). It might be worth having a consultation just to see what they say though and a consult does not cost anything.

I don't know if even taking to Social Media would do much. But most places do have an area to leave a review. Medicare does have an area as well that you can leave a complaint or comment about a particular place or facility. (I am hoping that the place your dad was in was a licensed, inspected facility. (If not that might be another avenue to explore)

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Reply to Grandma1954

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Thanks for the input. I am going any route I can find. HHS has a complaint for quality of care, state has something for deceptive business practice and of course complaints. The odd thing is that Medicare doesn’t care unless he is alive and at the facility. I find that disturbing. The fact that obudsman say that especially knowing the different facilities are Medicare Medicaid that aren’t checking drugs, aren’t being washed and such and getting sores and deadly infections. That didn’t make sense.

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No. No no no no no. NO! This is at the very least neglect and in my opinion abuse.

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Reply to cwillie

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Thank you! We think so and a few others. But when even the state folks imply other it’s frustrating.

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Any and all bedsores are to not only be reported to staff, but also treated by a wound care nurse ASAP.
I'm sorry that wasn't done in your dads case. And I'm sorry that you lost your dad.
It sounds like he had a lot of health issues, and I'm glad he doesn't have to suffer anymore, and I know you're glad too, though I know you miss him terribly and feel he was not treated properly.
I guess all you can do now is to gather as much of your dads medical records and such, and see if any lawyer is willing to take on your dads case.
But in the meantime you can most certainly file complaints with the facilities in question.
And seek out some grief counseling as well. Grief Share is a free support group that is in all cities, and if your dad was under hospice care at the end, they too offer free grief counseling for you.
God bless you.

Are stage 3 bedsores ever “normal” and seemingly ok to have?

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