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Why do older people think people should do free work for them? Nobody comes to my house and works for free. And I'm not talking about helping from parents from time to time, but work. My mum thinks everyone should work for her all the time. She stayed with a husband for years because they was too much she wanted him to do before she kicked him out. That's not fair, if you don't love someone....let them go!
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LoopyLoo Jan 2020
I've wondered about this too. Elders thinking people will do things for free or for very, very cheap. I guess it's from an "I'm old, on a fixed income, and I can't do much... feel sorry for me and do it for free!" mindset.

I'm aware SS and such often don't add up to much income. Really though, anyone who works on salary is on a fixed income! I can't go to my employer and say "Hey, pay me a little more this week, my fridge went out."

I'm also thinking many elders don't realize how much things cost now, and thus don't get why laborers charge what they do. When my father bought a new Suburban with some extra features, my grandfather remarked how it "must have cost $15,000!". Nope... more like $45,000.
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look up

Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Complete lack of empathy or awareness of another person’s time, preferences, needs..

I went through this issue with my mom.

YOU need to set boundaries. She will scream and shout but you are enabling this behavior by not setting boundaries. She only gets away with this because you let her.

Think of it this way- do you allow a 3 year old in a room with priceless vases? No because they will break them.

Same with selfish parents. I wasted 10 years of my life and badly missed chunks of time with my small kids by being a slave ( across the Atlantic) to my selfish non planning NPD parents. That time doesn’t come back. I was trapped in a pattern of ‘wanting mom’s approval’ borne of a lifetime of emotional abuse.

Read ‘Will I ever be good enough’

You only have 1 life. You don’t get a redo.

My mum started falling at home. She is now in residential care. I used the falls as a pivot to ‘accompany her’ there. Early Alzheimers made her more compliant but she is still toxic as hell.
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marymary2 Jan 2020
You are so correct, Pannacotta8. All I could think of was Narcissistic Mother when I read the post - mostly as I could identify with it. We both know, we'll never be good enough. The narcissist mother thrives on the attention she gets when she helps others. We can't give that same "narcissistic feed" (as the experts call it), so we'll never be thanked or appreciated or get her help.

Silverlining, you'll get great advice when you look up NPD. In the meanwhile, the advice here is good too about boundaries. Don't waste any more years of your life (as I did). Prepare yourself though, if she's like my mother (who also said she wanted to sell), once you do sell, you won't have gotten enough money, "forced" her to move, etc etc - expect complaints and hurtful false accusations about that too.
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Your mom has a hold on you both and you need to figure out why you let that continue. Do you even realize you have a right to say no? That you aren’t obligated to do anything for her? There is obvious dysfunction and you most likely need professional help to unravel why you let her narcissism overrule your health priorities. There’s a quote by Dr. Phil "we teach people how to treat us." As long as she can manipulate you, she will continue to do so. Have a reckoning with yourself and realize it takes your and your sister's compliance with her behavior To keep this dance going. You are trying to be the one who controls her life by making statements about how you want her future to look like and how you feel she would be happier if she’d move. You can’t control what makes her happy. Get a grip on that and stop thinking you can. I realized that with my dad years ago..only he is responsible for his happiness. It may be hard to swallow but it’s pretty obvious to me. You will NEVER change her or get her approval...shes' not capable. But you CAN change you...that is all you have control over. This may sound harsh on paper but I mean it in a sincere and loving way.
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marymary2 Jan 2020
Also, Silverlining, prepare the possibility that she will discard you after you stand up for yourself. Narcissists will do that and move on to their next source of feed.
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This is real life, not a Hollywood movie or a Victorian novel. Deathbed promises are extortions — attempts to control survivors’ lives because the life of the expiring person is over. Please just give that one up.
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shad250 Jan 2020
Lol
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Short answer:
1) you and your sister need to stand up for yourselves
2) 1-800-gotjunk
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shad250 Jan 2020
College Hunks Hauling Junk as well
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Silver, from an earlier post of yours "WRT my sister's financial situation, she doesn't make enough to rent, however, if my mother sold the house and (hopefully) gave her a down payment for a home of her own," don't do this. Mom give s cash to sis it could cause major issues with Medicaid if mom needs it within five years.

Mom would be penalized by Medicaid where she would have to pay out of her pocket until that penalty, which is dollar for dollar, until the gifted amount is paid. There are waivers regarding homes, though, that might be available in your state. The caregiver is allowed to remain in the home if they provided medically necessary care for a period of two years before a nursing home is needed.

See an elder law attorney for advice.
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Why exactly should mom sell the house & move? Her life is quite cushy as it currently is. Heck, if I were your mom I would be the same way — keeping things as they are. Come & go as I please while everyone else — 2 daughters & their families — do all the heavy lifting & errands. She has quite the life. Seriously, the only way to get a change is for YOU to change what you’re doing. As someone said earlier, stop enabling both sister & Mom.

Helping is doing something for someone that they are not capable of doing for themselves.  

Enabling is doing things for someone that they can and should be doing for themselves.
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dysFUNction Jan 2020
Helping vs Enabling.....wish my Dad could have read this when he was living!
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I can’t provide much guidance on the details for you and your sister except to say that at some point, you two have to draw the line and say “No more until you meet my terms.”

How I got to get my elderly parents to move to my state and city was two fold. I spent months coaxing them into just seeing what they could afford here, be it rent or purchase. Given their huge house, it signified a loss of independence, etc. to them but a brand new 2-3 BDRM condo comes with its perks. If it’s a rental, the maintenance crew takes care of X, Y, and Z, and if it’s a purchase, “Mom, we can get all brand new furniture for a home this size. I could sell everything you have now and get brand new things!” was a selling point.

That alone created a temporary openness that would never last on its own. But then my dad, as it turned out, had severe life-threatening issues that they didn’t know about. They said that doctors never mentioned this, but given the diagnoses were from 10-11 years ago, it became clearer that they were no longer capable of living on their own without either my sister or me to oversee their care — and given my sister lives in another country, that left me. With my dad getting admitted to the hospital via the ER every few weeks, the decision was finally made to pick a date one month out and move them out. For those 30 days, I drove down 3 hours every week for 4-5 days at a time to sell everything I could sell, throw away everything I couldn’t sell, pack up what they would keep, fix the basics in the house, list it for sale, find a rental place near my house and move them in. I’m still a little stunned it actually happened, though had I known how much nonstop work this would mean for me once they got here, I may have reconsidered. (Joking...kind of.)

Hang in there. You’re doing so much for her but don’t forget to give yourself a break. While it’s admirable you’re trying to help mom out and your sister, too — you have to come first. With your own serious health issues, you serve no purpose to any of them if you’re bedridden or worse.
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silverlinings73 Jan 2020
Thanks so much for this - it's nice to know that others can relate to me. I do have one project I have to finish that I started, because I did commit to it. Once that's done, I'm going to have a convo with my sister - if she feels that this 'sale' is just not going to happen, I'll say my piece about her moving out again, and then back off. I would love to be able to see my mom moved into a beautiful, comfortable new home or condo, and settle in - I like the idea of selling as much as possible to make the move easier, and even wonder if an estate sale would get her more money than if I sold things off individually for her - I get that everyone wants control over their own lives, but it kills me to see the dangerous conditions in that house, and I'm not sure she can afford to make the major repairs. The bones are great, but it's WAAAAY too big and there is way too much stuff in there. Praying we can come to a solution fast. I think she'd be much happier in the end.
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Replying to your response to JWC1929
You make a very good point about the renovations already starting to look run down. Is there some way you could get some real estate agents (not sure what you call them in the US) to come and give a free appraisal on the property. (I say free for a reason - you are more likely to get your mother to agree to a FREE valuation than one that has to be paid for.) Assess it in its current state, and also if it were renovated to a particular standard. Get the agents to list what areas would need upgrading, get quotes for that upgrading. The cost of the renovations may well cost more than the difference between selling renovated and un-renovated.
Regarding your response to CTNN55 about your sister and brother in law's financial contribution to the property in which your mother lives. If your sister's contribution is not legally represented on the title, or some form of agreement in place, she most surely should getting legal advice as to her rights. Irrespective of what is currently in your mother's Will, given her difficult attitude she may well choose to change it from time to time, if you are both, or either, included now that may change in the future. It would be much simpler to challenge the Will if your sister has something in writing, either legally or privately drawn up between her and your mother, to prove the financial contributions. At the very least she should keep all receipts for anything she has and will pay towards the renovations and maintenance.
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silverlinings73 Jan 2020
OH no, you make a good point. I'm not interested in contesting any will - honestly, the money in my mother's estate was hard-earned by my father, but my brother - and his wife - might contest it. I personally want to see my sister get back their investment, and I'm soooo so so against squabbling over wills - but since you mentioned it, I'm now thinking if I conceded part of anything left to me to my sister I'll a) be slammed with taxes and b) I'm very concerned my brother will fight for more. I only wanted 2 personal items from them, one was already given to me after my father passed. My sister has also been doing almost all of the heavy lifting for a few years, with me just starting to get heavily involved for a little over a year now, so I want to make sure she is taken care of. Being part of the sandwich generation can really suck. THANK you for the tip, I really hadn't thought of that.
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Since you were just diagnoised that is your reason, for backing away. Your health just doesn't allow for you to help

Your sister's problems are hers. Her x left, does she get support for her kids? Alimony for her at least till she got on her feet? SHE needs to figure out her own life. SHE needs to stand up to Mom. You can't do it for her. But you can do it for you. You can tell Mom you are no longer able to do for her. That if she can't do it for herself, she needs to sell the property and downsize. When she does that, you will help her clean out the house and help her move. With sister, you need to tell her u no longer are going to enable Mom where she can stay in her house. Sister needs to get her "big girl panties" on. Show her children what a strong woman is.
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kdcm1011 Jan 2020
Amen!
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There is choice here. There is the choice of your sister. The choice that you have. And it seems that it is time now to take responsibility for your own lives and your own health. Time for you and sis to meet together, and come to conclusions, then meet with Mom and GENTLY, LOVINGLY lay down the LAW. You will tell her exactly what you have decided. And without room for argument. For instance:
"Mom, the details don't matter, but Sis and I have talked, and this is not working for either of us any more. Sis will be moving out on (give Date). I will be able to come (once a month, whatever) to check on you. We know that this will mean a lot of changes for you going forth. If you decided to sell let us know and we can perhaps oversee when your hired people come to clear out the house, and etc. It is quite big for you. But that will be up for you to decide. Here are the names and numbers of a few places to check out if you need help (provide with Visiting Angels number or whatever is in your area). We really don't want to argue about this, as our decisions for ourselves are final, and were made as well as we can make them, and we've no energy left for argument".
You will now of course have to endure the accusations or dumping, of bad daughters, etc. The anger. The tears. And you will say you are so sorry to cause this distress, and made a mistake in trying to take on what you could not handle, but there you are. Just sorry. That is all.
This is about choice. Your choice. Wishing you good luck.
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The first thing I would do is consider your sister's situation. Does she actually have to live with mom? Could she afford a place of her own? I would work first on that, then get her moved out.  Then I would make decisions for Myself what I was willing to do and not willing to do, to protect my health and sanity.  For sure, there is NO obligation to care for your mom's bricks and mortar.  She is healthy. The house is hers. It is up to her to decide what to do and to pay for whatever help she needs if she decides to sell the house. She is living on the shoulders of you and your sister and it will destroy you. If you promised to take care of your mom, well this is not what "taking care" involves - it means safe and clean and healthy and it can be subcontracted, using her money.
Please do not feel any false guilt. It is your mom who is guilty treating you like slaves.  Her lifestyle is her choice, but it is entirely up to her to support her decisions. Not to you.  And why should it be? They are not your decisions.  She won't clean up her act as long as you keep enabling it. So, work with your sister to decide what you two want and then execute your plan. If you want to tell your mom (not ask but tell) do so, but do not accept any arguments. None.  Remember, guilt involves facts, but not feelings.  And factually you have nothing to feel guilty about. Truly you are doing her, as well as yourself, a favor by putting an end to this refusal to accept reality.
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silverlinings73 Jan 2020
Until I read the first response I didn't realize that there was another layer to this. While I know something needs to change, my sister feels a much greater responsibility to her, and it's grossly misplaced - but she does have a financial situation created by her ex-husband leaving, her own health problems, and the amount she earns. Now, having said that, yes, there are resources. She could apply for housing, rent subsidies, things like that, but there might be a codependency going on. While she DOES recognize that her health issues (the breakdown, panic attacks, etc) ARE caused by her living situation, I think that because she lives there, she's having a hard time envisioning what her alternatives are, and how moving out is truly her only choice at this point. Talking any more deeply than topically about these issues shuts my sister down, so maybe I need to extricate myself from the situation to some extent, take the 'you never come to help out' pill, and carry on. Thanks for the advice!
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Your promise to your dad to always take care of your mom merely means to see that she's safe, is clothed, and has food and a roof over her head. It doesn't mean "kill yourself by being at her beck and call."

She sounds pretty independent, so I'm not sure why you and your sister are hovering over her quite as much as you do. It seems you're more anxious about her messy house and whether she sells it or not.

Sis needs to move out, and the two of you take turns calling her every night to check-in for 10 minutes. Provide her with a list of local electricians, plumbers, and handymen, introduce her to Instacart for her groceries, and let her handle her own life. If she asks you to handle something, you're terribly busy and refer her to the list. If she uses a computer, teach her to use Yelp for referrals.
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silverlinings73 Jan 2020
I know it's confusing - I'm even confused - but I get sucked into these 'repair' and 'remodelling' projects, and they drag on and on because she changes her mind constantly about how she wants projects done, and the pull for me is always 'I need to move into something smaller that I don't have to maintain.' I think through these comments I'm just realizing now that she may never sell that house. Beautiful new floors, banisters, and bathrooms are already beginning to look run-down because it's been soooo long since this whole 'fix the house up to sell it' project has begun - something like TWENTY years! I don't think I'm saving her any money at all doing it for her - because the plan is constantly changing, I think she's spending more on materials than she would have to hire someone to do it right off the bat.
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Please make some MAJOR changes. NOW. You owe it to yourself.

Boundary time. Do not continue to be at your beck and call. It's just too crazy. You need to stand up for yourself and let her suffer the consequences of her poor choices and selfishness.

She'll be mad. Too bad. You're mad! Aren't you allowed to be mad and frustrated and just DONE? Yes. Yes, you are allowed.

Say No mom, I can not (or will not) do X (insert unreasonable demand).

Best of luck!
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I agree with everyone else. Since your sister can afford to move out she needs to. Your mom is 'independent' because she has two daughters propping her up. Stop it. Your weekly visits are now once a month visits....and you are there just to visit, not work (unless it is to help your sister move out). It really is as simple as that.
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NeedHelpWithMom Jan 2020
This is so true. We are not responsible for managing others lives.
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"My sister recently had a nervous breakdown, anxiety attacks, and has several very serious health issues, and I have cervical cancer, arthritis, and a host of other issues." And probably stress has contributed to at least some of these issues between your sister and you.

The advice already given is excellent. If it was just you and your mother, I would quite (coldly to some here, although not anyone who has posted thus far!) firmly tell you to leave mother to her own devices...with her mobility impairments perhaps she would eventually take a fall and then be forced into a better living situation.

BUT I am also concerned for your sister. She is her own person, of course, and makes her own decisions. But you appear to have a good bond with her, and if her life continues as it is, she could well die before your mother (has she expressed suicidal ideations?). Could the two of you bolster each other to stand up to your bully of a mother?

If your mother sold the house, you said that your sister could afford to live on her own. How would that work? Why can't your sister afford to live on her own now?

What is your mother's financial situation? Are you and your sister the only siblings? Are you the heirs to her estate?

You also mention your children and your sister's children. If you can't put yourself and your sister first, what about them? Their living situation now is going to affect them for a lifetime. Is it a good effect?

I would suggest that you discuss this issue with your sister, and come back and tell us if the two of you are willing to stand up to your bully mother.
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silverlinings73 Jan 2020
I'm unsure of my mother's financial situation - I don't think it's terribly good, which is another reason why she should sell. That property could easily buy my mother a house with CASH, with enough left over to help my sister get on her feet. I don't know what the division of assets is in the will, but my sister and her husband actually put a significant amount of their own money into the house, so I would hope that she would see the return on that. WRT my sister's financial situation, she doesn't make enough to rent, however, if my mother sold the house and (hopefully) gave her a down payment for a home of her own, I'm confident she could manage on her own. We have a brother, but he lives in another country and never comes to visit - maybe once every few years. And when he does, you betcha, he's put to work too. I don't know how to have this conversation with my sister, but it's becoming clear that if I can only control 'me' then I have to step away to an extent. I don't know what my treatment will be (I was just diagnosed) and my kids need me too, as you mentioned. Honestly, I wish she'd sell the house, buy a new one for cash, and do a reverse mortgage. It would give her enough money to live on, and a newer house won't need any upkeep.
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Learn this sentence: "I can't possibly do that, mom. You need to hire someone for that".

Repeat it as often as necessary.

There us a book called "Boundaries", by Townsend and Cloud. Get a copy and get one for your sister.

It has often been my observation here that it's very often adult children of abusive parents who think that it's their job to obey their parents' every demand.

Those with healthier boundaries growing up were taught that saying "no", even to their parent is a necessary part of adulthood
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silverlinings73 Jan 2020
Thanks for the book reference - I'll send for a few copies right away!
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Stop enabling your Mom. Stop going there. Stop enabling your sister, tell her to get out and find her own place. You both need to live your lives and leave Mom to her fate.
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I can see parallels with my mother's situation with a large property and lack of maintenance, not to mention us increasingly attending to her wants/demands, wanting professionals and trades people to work for free (I am a war widow, you know!) and drawing on every government handout going, despite her being sufficiently well off to pay for everything - and some. At least in my mother's case the situation was resolved when her acreage and huge house were sold to developers and she had to move. Even though she signed the contract she still resented what was, in effect, pulling the rug out from under 35 years of a rose-tinted life. I appreciate it is how she felt, and have always taken that into account when she has wished for her old life back. But your mother and her property issues are in a whole class of their own. Talk about a toxic situation!
Here is a tip - your mother will never sell while she has people at her beck and call, fetching and carrying, jumping to attention every time she barks. You and your sister are, most definitely, her unpaid slaves. And while you remain her slaves that magic two year time frame in which to sell the property will be continually extended to another two and another two. That woman simply does not want to move from a situation where she has total control over other people. She is most definitely a bully.
As difficult as it may seem, possibly the first thing you both need to do is put aside resentment and hurt over what appears to have been a dreadful childhood at the hands of your mother. One often reads that forgiveness is essential to be able to move on to a satisfying life. Not important for the abuser but essential for the abused. It seems to be clouding your ability to think this situation through with any clarity. I don't know that I could do it with any conviction, but it may be worth a try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Incidentally, that suggestion does not come from any religious belief that requires one to honour the parents, do unto others etc, a state of perfection which is counter-productive in toxic situations.
Even though you had no control over your mother's abuse during your childhood, you are both enabling your mother's atrocious behaviour NOW. In your sister's case I suppose she is between a rock and a hard place, needing a roof over her head and that of her children's. If there is an alternative living arrangement she could enter into, even if it is inadequate in the short term, perhaps she needs to take a leap of faith and move out in the hope of finding something better in the very near future. She certainly needs distancing from this soul destroying life. And you need to rescue yourself from the bullying too.
If your mother is able to hold down a job and undertake volunteer work, she is most certainly capable of looking out for herself and attending to her property. If you and your sister were unconscious in hospital for weeks and months on end, she would manage. She would just have to pay for assistance where she may well have some physical difficulties copying.
I live in a different country so I have no idea about elder intervention. I suppose your mother's doctor is the most obvious person to approach first. It did not help in my mother's case when we were trying to ease her into permanent care, despite his excellent advice. But faced with either keeping a relationship with her children and being alone, you never know something might penetrate her thick hide.
I can only think of simply walking away. Whether your sister can, or even wood, is for her to decide. I just hope someone else in this forum has better suggestions for you.
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rovana Jan 2020
Could I just add that "honoring your parents" does not mean enabling them to evil things. Not ever.  There is no honor here in allowing bullying.  I would say that in this situation I would interpret "honoring my parent" as standing up to her bullying, walking away and basically forcing her to do some thinking about her abuse of her kids (and probably others). That, IMO, in the moral path.
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You stop the weekly trips to enable your mom AND your sis.
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It's mind boggling how selfish some old people are. Silverlining, your mother is one SELFISH old woman.

Your slavery to her needs and wants will stop when YOU decide to stop.

Mom: I want/need you to blah blah....
You: Sorry, I can't do it mom.
Mom: But I blah blah.... and you need to blah blah...
You: Sorry, I can't do it mom.

Rinse, and repeat
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NeedHelpWithMom Jan 2020
So well said, Polar
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Well, I think you said it best yourself. Read the last sentence of what you wrote, “It’s impossible, Mom. Sell the house.”

I can’t think of a better way to say it. Is it awkward and uncomfortable to do? Yes, but do you and your sister want to continue to be her slaves? It sounds like you have had enough and have done way more than your share.

So, take a deep breath. Have the talk that needs to be done. Express that you are grateful that she helped the two of you out when you needed help but that it’s time, actually past time for making changes in lifestyles for all of you. Tell her that you were happy to help her out but it is becoming too much for you. You have other responsibilities that you must attend to.

There comes a time when a large home is no longer needed and if it isn’t maintained it becomes a money pit too.

Best wishes to you and your family.
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silverlinings73 Jan 2020
thanks for that...isn't it funny how the answers are SO obvious but you sometimes need someone else to say it to realize it? I already made up a list of senior support services for her (trusted 'senior stamped' electrician, plumber, etc) so I think I'm going to give her a call and outline all of this very simply, and then send her the list. I don't know why I always felt like I was making excuses whenever I didn't go due to illness or injury, but God, did I feel guilty. And looking at it now, it's probably because she MADE me feel guilty. I wish I could help her with what she needs, but I can't put up with the demands and the attitude. Why can't people be NICE. I'd be more than happy to help out however I could within my limits if she was grateful, if she was NICE - but she just isn't, and everyone is exhausted and miserable.
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