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and no property, but with this power of attorney he sold his house and was incharge of his Three savings account, andis buying up property in his own name. and my friend does't relize this and think that he has still alot of money. What should I do?
I agree with speak1104. But as a matter of ethics, this should not be disregarded. In the end when people chose to do these kind of things, we all "pay". When this is found out the money will have to be replaced. If this person did this knowingly, would be part of the question.. But when he was asked if this friend had money, he must have been aware. So he will have to "pay the piper" so to speak, when this all gets out in the open. It is unfortunate that his friend trusted him and he abused his trust.
Excellent comment Hannah44. I am in a family situation myself, that there are some very subtle things going on. The person that was designated as the POA is acting as a guardian. These are 2 different things. I am a professional and am mandated by law to report these things. I am working with one of my siblings in seeing that we attempt to correct this, because the person will not speak to me. If this fails, then we both because we are mandated will have to report what is happening. Be on the lookout, because many times this can be a very subtle thing , and not very obvious! Elder Abuse - it is all of our responsibility - report it!!!!!!!!
Is it possible that the friend with POA is dissolving your friends assets so that he will be eligible for Medicaid in the future. Have you thought about confronting him?
Albees, this possible case of abuse of POA access and subsequent elder abuse can be reported to the Nursing Home facility social worker but don't stop there. Contact Adult Protective Services and tell them your reason for concern and where to begin investigating. The people in these 2 positions are already being paid to do a job that includes protecting this individual from abuse, neglect and theft. Good that you are concerned and caring to help. POA's are in a trust position that an abuser can see as an opportunity to help themselves to the person's assets. It is not legal for a POA to take to themselves these. The nursing home may be being paid by your friends remaining assets but if he runs out and tries to qualify for Medicaid aid, the state will investigate assets back 7 years.i believe. The state will can prosecute when they find someone has stolen a persons's assets under the guise of POA authority.. Help to stop the abuse hopefully before it gets that far!
There just isn't enough information out there to know what exactly has occurred. That's why finding out how the NH is being paid is important.
One thing I've found in dealing with the elderly is that often their viewpoint on money is sometimes unrealistic on what costs or values are or in how the Medicaid or Medicare system works. Add to that, dementia, & you get quite a lot of misinformation. I know with some of my older relatives, they think 50K is a lot of $ & totally clueless that 50K is 5 or 7 months of private pay NH or the co-pay for a major hospitalization surgery stay. For them, they might have bought a house for 50K so it's a huge amount of $. To me, 50K is basically like having no $ for someone in a NH as it will be spent in super short order & outside of your control other than a flurry of last minute spend down on funeral, burial, legal and other personal needs items.
The POA could have decided to liquidate all assets to simplify the situation and the $ has been put in trust or guardianship account. We just don't know.
Or the POA could have spent it improperly as Albees is concerned about.
If they apply for Medicaid, the money trail will be looked at for a 5 year look back and found out about if anything was transferred or done inappropriately and the state will act on that.
That is fraud. You should contact the police about this as well as contact Social Security and Medicaid and also tell the nursing home director about this.
Hello Igloo572, Please re read the statement. It states that the friend sold the house and is buying up property in his own name. I'm not sure what other information we would need. I'm not sure knowing how the NH is being paid, has any bearing on the ultimate problem. According to the statement the friend told the nursing home that the person had no money and he had 3 saving bank accounts???? Besides when you make a report, you do not have the burden of proof. You are just reporting that there could likely be a problem that needs investigation. And in regards to what angie28 mentioned. Maybe he is trying to liquidate his assets, so that he is eligible for Medicaid in the future. You can not liquidate assets for your own use. It would have to be for that person's use. That is called fraud and elder abuse, otherwise!!!!!!! Confronting him certainly is an option, but few people are willing to do this.
1gem - my point is that we just don't really know what has happened, what Albees "information" is based on....does she have actual copies of filed property sales, bank deposit slips that show where the proceeds went, etc, or it is Albee's "perspective" based on what someone said or what the elder probably with dementia said. Property records are easy to get, most assessors have this available on-line for nominal cost.
How the NH is being paid is central to the issue because if the POA has entered the resident as "Medicaid pending" and has moved assets incorrectly for Medicaid eligibility, there will be a transfer penalty and the POA can be held responsible.
It's been my experience, as being executrix more than once and spending more hours that I can count in probate court where guardianship issues are held, that it's at this point - when a POA has not fulfilled their duties properly - that the state acts and removes the POA and appoints a temporary guardian or conservator and the state will freeze accounts and the individual will become a ward of the state.The POA can be investigated. BUT if the POA has decided to sell assets or condense accounts to simplify, they as POA can do that & use the proceeds to set up an entity, like a trust or simple draw account, to pay for the NH. The POA could well have a contract that allows for them to take a hefty management fee for being POA. Does the POA have their own source of funds to buy real estate. We don't know. But 1 thing we do know is that the NH sure isn't having them there without someone signing off financially responsible so somewhere they are getting paid.
There is a reason why that person was chosen as POA over others or family. We just don't know enough about the situation. Could it be fraud - maybe; could it be just bad judgement - maybe; could it be totally legal - maybe.
For one of my aunts estates, the "knowledge" was that she would die leaving a lot of $$$.....not the case, yes, it was a large and very convoluted estate but she had huge margin calls on her portfolio so no real $ there and so much of the land had never been through probate so all sorts of issues with liens, judgements, old heir stuff & usufructs there. It was the case that while my aunt was alive and getting her retirement & survivor income that it was enough to support her debt load. Once she died though there was no real $$ as the income stream was gone upon her death. I really didn't know diddly about all this stuff (well, OK maybe a small pile of diddly) when I became executrix but had pretty wonderful and patient attorneys and paralegals to work through it with me. But to this very day, there are still family that 101% believe that I stole their inheritance. They just didn't & couldn't understand even when the exasperated probate judge took an hour + of court time to walk them through where auntie's stocks went and why they were gone.
Due to HIPPA, it would be rare that anyone from the NH would discuss the actual personal details on a resident or patient with someone who does not have POA or other legal standing like a guardian or conservator as it is illegal to do this.
It's good that Albee's is concerned about her friend & she doesn't need to confront him but instead can in writing ask the local Agency on Aging to investigate her concerns & she should very clearly write down the specifics of what she thinks has happened. This very site has a listing by state of the Area Agency on Aging.
Oh I agree. If you are not directly involved, you do not know all the in's and out's! I also have had to deal with guardianship and would prefer never to have anything to do with it again. I was going purely on what was STATED in the question. That may or may not be correct. But it is everyone's responsibility non the less to report SUSPECTED Elder Abuse. All you are saying is "I think there MAY be a problem here, please investigate and see if that is true." If not, GREAT. But in the meantime, more damage may not occur, because you made a report.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
That's why finding out how the NH is being paid is important.
One thing I've found in dealing with the elderly is that often their viewpoint on money is sometimes unrealistic on what costs or values are or in how the Medicaid or Medicare system works. Add to that, dementia, & you get quite a lot of misinformation. I know with some of my older relatives, they think 50K is a lot of $ & totally clueless that 50K is 5 or 7 months of private pay NH or the co-pay for a major hospitalization surgery stay. For them, they might have bought a house for 50K so it's a huge amount of $. To me, 50K is basically like having no $ for someone in a NH as it will be spent in super short order & outside of your control other than a flurry of last minute spend down on funeral, burial, legal and other personal needs items.
The POA could have decided to liquidate all assets to simplify the situation and the $ has been put in trust or guardianship account. We just don't know.
Or the POA could have spent it improperly as Albees is concerned about.
If they apply for Medicaid, the money trail will be looked at for a 5 year look back and found out about if anything was transferred or done inappropriately and the state will act on that.
Please re read the statement. It states that the friend sold the house and is buying up property in his own name. I'm not sure what other information we would need. I'm not sure knowing how the NH is being paid, has any bearing on the ultimate problem. According to the statement the friend told the nursing home that the person had no money and he had 3 saving bank accounts???? Besides when you make a report, you do not have the burden of proof. You are just reporting that there could likely be a problem that needs investigation.
And in regards to what angie28 mentioned. Maybe he is trying to liquidate his assets, so that he is eligible for Medicaid in the future. You can not liquidate assets for your own use. It would have to be for that person's use. That is called fraud and elder abuse, otherwise!!!!!!! Confronting him certainly is an option, but few people are willing to do this.
"information" is based on....does she have actual copies of filed property sales, bank deposit slips that show where the proceeds went, etc, or it is Albee's "perspective" based on what someone said or what the elder probably with dementia said. Property records are easy to get, most assessors have this available on-line for nominal cost.
How the NH is being paid is central to the issue because if the POA has entered the resident as "Medicaid pending" and has moved assets incorrectly for Medicaid eligibility, there will be a transfer penalty and the POA can be held responsible.
It's been my experience, as being executrix more than once and spending more hours that I can count in probate court where guardianship issues are held, that it's at this point - when a POA has not fulfilled their duties properly - that the state acts and removes the POA and appoints a temporary guardian or conservator and the state will freeze accounts and the individual will become a ward of the state.The POA can be investigated. BUT if the POA has decided to sell assets or condense accounts to simplify, they as POA can do that & use the proceeds to set up an entity, like a trust or simple draw account, to pay for the NH. The POA could well have a contract that allows for them to take a hefty management fee for being POA. Does the POA have their own source of funds to buy real estate. We don't know. But 1 thing we do know is that the NH sure isn't having them there without someone signing off financially responsible so somewhere they are getting paid.
There is a reason why that person was chosen as POA over others or family. We just don't know enough about the situation. Could it be fraud - maybe; could it be just bad judgement - maybe; could it be totally legal - maybe.
For one of my aunts estates, the "knowledge" was that she would die leaving a lot of $$$.....not the case, yes, it was a large and very convoluted estate but she had huge margin calls on her portfolio so no real $ there and so much of the land had never been through probate so all sorts of issues with liens, judgements, old heir stuff & usufructs there. It was the case that while my aunt was alive and getting her retirement & survivor income that it was enough to support her debt load. Once she died though there was no real $$ as the income stream was gone upon her death. I really didn't know diddly about all this stuff (well, OK maybe a small pile of diddly) when I became executrix but had pretty wonderful and patient attorneys and paralegals to work through it with me. But to this very day, there are still family that 101% believe that I stole their inheritance. They just didn't & couldn't understand even when the exasperated probate judge took an hour + of court time to walk them through where auntie's stocks went and why they were gone.
Due to HIPPA, it would be rare that anyone from the NH would discuss the actual personal details on a resident or patient with someone who does not have POA or other legal standing like a guardian or conservator as it is illegal to do this.
It's good that Albee's is concerned about her friend & she doesn't need to confront him but instead can in writing ask the local Agency on Aging to investigate her concerns & she should very clearly write down the specifics of what she thinks has happened. This very site has a listing by state of the Area Agency on Aging.
I also have had to deal with guardianship and would prefer never to have anything to do with it again. I was going purely on what was STATED in the question. That may or may not be correct. But it is everyone's responsibility non the less to report SUSPECTED Elder Abuse. All you are saying is "I think there MAY be a problem here, please investigate and see if that is true." If not, GREAT. But in the meantime, more damage may not occur, because you made a report.