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I was gathering Medicaid materials to get him on Medicaid before NYS changes the 3 month lookback to 2.5 years for in home care in April which he was onboard with. And he suddenly decides he wants to create a trust for his great grandchildren. I told him he will not be able to get Medicaid then. He said he knows and it's his life. He can barely walk due to diabetes. I am the main person who cleans his house which is always a horror show. But I am not doing this crap anymore, if he is going to be so selfish he won't take responsibility for himself. Done. He has always been a selfish idiot when I got mom on Medicaid before she died. It was an absolute nightmare trying to get him to do the right thing financially. I have always wondered if he has a personality disorder or if he is just really immature. I feel very upset now, but I think this the path I have to go down now. Sad that this is how our relationship ends.

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You are very angry right now. After you calm do you think that sitting down with him and explaining that if he persists in this you will withdraw from helping him at all might help? Might it help if you ask him to go to an Elder Law Attorney with you, along with the facts of his assets and choices, and get that person's advice? Is he speaking of an "irrevocable trust" because that is the only "trust" that protects what assets he still has. And that is basically GIVING AWAY THE RANCH. He needs to understand that at that point he will have NO CONTROL of his assets.
If he remains too stubborn to speak with you, then I congratulate you on moving away from his care. Tell him you love him, and will visit him, but you will never participate in his care or finances again, and that he will need the intervention of the State for a fiduciary guardianship in future if he needs help, care, or guardianship in the future.
Not everything can be fixed. Not every person can be helped. And you will be wise to adhere now to the tenets of the old Serenity Prayer. Sorry. I am certain you are frustrated and worried.
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If your dad is still of sound mind, then unfortunately he does have the final say on how he wants to use his monies, even if it doesn't make sense to you, and may hurt him in the end. He will have to live with the choices he makes, and so will you. You can lead a horse to water, but as you are learning, you can't make them drink. I'm sure you are quite frustrated with your dad right now, but not sure that this is something to end your relationship over. Perhaps for the time being, you just take a step back, and see what the future holds. Wishing you the best.
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Not everything can be fixed is why I am turning away. You have no idea what I have been through with him. He is talking about investing the money in stocks on their behalf or something. We are not talking a lot of money, but it's a lot to him.
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Good for you. You have been tirelessly helping your father and now he decides a different approach. Let him create a trust and deal with his own financial affairs. Never help anyone who wants to dictate how you will help them.
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Good for you! Stand your ground and come out the other side stronger than before.
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I don't quite get it. Your upset that you've invested your time so he can qualify for Medicaid but he's changed his mind and you think he's selfish for wanting to provide an inheritance for his grandkids. OK, he certainly has that right. But why would you take it so personally, to actually disown him?

To establish a trust, he's going to have to see an elder care atty who will explain the pros and cons of a trust. If he's thinking about a revocable trust, it really doesn't matter. The trust must be funded and I assume he would do that with existing assets. Whether the money is in a revocable trust or not, it's still not exempt from Medicaid spend down and doesn't insure the grandkids get anything. Leave the irrevocable trusts to the wealthy where they no longer think they need access to it.

If he has money to fund a trust, use it to pay for home care. If he wants to leave an inheritance, simply change his life policies to add the g'kids as benies.
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If he does this and then needs Medicaid, all that stuff is getting billed back to whatever great-greatgrandchild he cares to gift it to.

Hope grandchildren aren't counting on it. In any case it'll be their mess to deal with.

Question to the room--when the senior presents with no assets does Medicaid take care of it anyway and then go after gifted assets?
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I suspect dad thinks that Medicaid will not be necessary because daughter will devote her life to care of dad whatever happens. His plan for aging is to exploit his child. If I were OP, I would certainly take this seriously. Now of course child could simply walk away, but for so many of us feelings of moral obligation would tear at us.
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I think the difficulty here would be for the child to simply say "no" and walk away when the consequences of foolish financial decisions come home to roost. It is true that legally a child may not be compelled to care for a parent, but factually issues of moral guilt may force a child into doing something not in their best interest. Trying to encourage dad to act prudently is a very reasonable thing to do for both OP and dad. It can be very hard to actually enforce the reasonable consequences of bad behavior and protect oneself.
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Well, about visiting him - that would just make him believe he doesn't need outside help, since I do all the housework there. I really feel like cutting ties for good if he doesn't straighten up and do what is right. I feel like the maid and the doormat. I have had it. Nothing I say is taken seriously either by him or my sister who lives right next door. Both of them actively tried to thwart my attempts to get my mom on Medicaid (by not listening to what I advised about how to handle money) so she could have aides in the house (dementia) even though it was what they both wanted. It's hard to understand. I feel he is manipulative and not really who he tries to project. Everyone sees him as this "nice old man", but I do not. I think it's an act. Why am I the only one who sees who he is?
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It's got nothing to do with the time I have spent. He really has very little money and I partially support him along with one of my sisters. There is not an ongoing influx of a lot of money or anything saved. No IRA, nothing. He never has planned for the future, you see. "Life policies" - what life policies? He lives on SS and a little bit from a gravel pit someone else mines that he has life estate on. The gravel pit paid a bit more than usual at the end of the year. I take it very personally when he does something against his own interest that ruins the rest of his life and potentially my life if I have to care for him. He doesn't have enough for a trust, he says he will be playing the stock market on behalf of the great grandkids. He doesn't have enough for an attorney. I think that really, what he wants to do is play the stock market - full stop - and this is just an excuse. That just came to me. Of course that's what it is. Yes, he has a right to do anything he wants. And so do I. And Rovana - you got that right.
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No, he's playing the stock market, not a trust as it turns out. Not enough for a trust. So that medicaid penalty will fall to his children - meaning me because my siblings always claim they are broke. I don't think Medicaid does anything if a person has no assets, but created penalties. It is up to someone to make good on those penalties before Medicaid will help. I don't think they "go after" anyone. They just present the amount of penalty and the family has to deal with it - or not. And then no Medicaid.
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Labs4me: "deal with his own financial affairs", that's a laugh. If only he were an adult...
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It won't just hurt him in the end but everyone around him who has to take care of him. I am not moving in with him. I am not moving in with him. I am not moving in with him.
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Jolo the Medicaid penalty DOES NOT fall to you. Let him be. You can anonymously call APS to check on him if you are concerned about his welfare. What is done when he gets incapacitated enough where he can't live on his own he'll end up in a hospital and the hospital will find placement for him. And that placement is not with you if you can't take him in.

PeggySue, what happens is the incapacitated are sent to hospital and to a skilled nursing facility. Medicaid will be applied for by the social worker. If a penalty is assessed or Medicaid is denied, the nursing home may try to recoup the costs from the giftees (they may eventually take court action). at least that is how the laws are written in my State. BUT, the patient cannot be thrown to the curb either, nor does the family have to come and take him/her home.
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You've said/implied several times that you will be forced to take care of him.

You almost seem resigned to it.

You do not. Let them put him in the biggest piece of crap cheap nursing home in your state if that's what the government has to do. Caregiving is NOT your responsibility.

Cutting off contact is a good start. Stop helping him even a little financially (your sister too). You need that money for your own retirement. You are not responsible for the stupidity of your parents and siblings.
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I don't blame you at all for feeling the way you do.

It's completely rational when you think about it.

I'm sorry, but this man is relying on you (for probably free) to do stuff you should be paid for, he probably needs more help already besides you, and he's electing to throw his money away on GREAT-grandchildren? Where are grandma/grandpa who are mom and pop? Will they be there to clean house, wipe asses and volunteer for life let alone their kids? Chances are they're not there with you, right.
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Sorry, if he has money for Trusts then how can he get "in home" Medicaid. I am under the impression that like LTC Medicaid, in home has a cap too. You can't have more than a certain amount in the bank, like 2k. If he sets up Trusts thats hiding money. If done within a look back period, the person won't qualify for in home or LTC. If he has money, why is he not using it for aides.

I may not walk away, but I would stop trying to get him care. Just come in and do the housework but stop there. Sister can do the caring.
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Should have done my research before I posted. Seems NYS is more generous when it comes to how much they allow in liquid assets, 15,750. And even 2.5 year lookback is less than a lot of States.

Maybe Dads doctor needs to have a nice talk with him. Explaining that his diabetes will continue to get worse. That he needs help in the home or he is going to find himself in a nursing home. You, also, may want to tell him you physically will not care for him. Dad needs a reality check.

So sorry you are going thru this. I had a stubborn father and I was glad he went before Mom. I told my brothers not to expect me to be Dads caregiver. Other than my husband, I refuse to care for another man.
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Mstrbill: If nursing homes cannot throw him out, why doesn't everyone do it like that and forget about the application, evaluation, etc and just let the state take over? I don't believe that nursing homes are prohibited from throwing people out. They threw my mother out after rehab even though we said we could not care for her. Also, they denied my mom later when I applied, because of so many unacceptable deposits and withdrawals and that we didn't have a lawyer. Could not afford one. And then I found out about the MLTC in the home. I had no idea that was an option before that.
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JoAnn29: my dad knows all about what will happen to him due to diabetes - a lot of it has already happened - and that he is causing a Medicaid penalty and he says he does not care - he has a right to do what he wants. And believe me, I told him I would not take care of him. A nursing home would not take him with the 5 year lookback because of too many penalty items in his bank account. I got this under control a few years ago when my mom went on Medicaid, mostly through threats and a lot of yelling. He will not agree to being told what to do even though it's in his best interest and my mom's at the time. It was a nightmare and I almost lost my mind trying to control him to keep him from damaging the whole thing. I had to get therapy for 3 years. Not going through that again. That's why I am cutting ties. 2. 5 year lookback is for in home care beginning in April. It is 5 years for NH. I don't know if you realize that. It used to be 3 months lookback for in home care, which is a lot more humane.
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PeggySue2020 - right, they are not there. I just got criticized for the way I "expressed" myself about washing my hands of my dad in front of the immediate family in our closed family FB page by my nephew's wife - the parents of one of the recipients. She said it made me look cruel and I should only have written to my sisters. What the heck? I was angry and hurt and still am. And I was hoping a family member, maybe one of the parents of the great grandkids, would step up and talk some sense into him. This woman always takes any side regarding my dad or my sister - her mother in law - but mine. I am always wrong. I am not wrong, he is being a huge jerk. She never sees my side. Neither does my sister. Always it's my dad who is being unfairly treated. "Poor old man." Really? Let them do the Medicaid application then. Let them worry about what the heck he does with his money that causes a penalty. Let them pay for the penalties so he can get Medicaid! Let them deal with his unreasonableness and stubbornness. Let them clean his disgusting slobby house. I am done.
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Jolo, Nursing homes cannot release someone to an unsafe environment. What they do sometimes is send someone to the hospital and then refuse to take them back in (they'll claim the bed is taken). Then the hospital needs to find another safe discharge. If you don't fight hard enough, and if your mom had lived with you, and it could be shown that she would be safe at home, then yes, its possible the NH could have intimidated you into taking her home. That's unfortunate. But think for a moment, what happens to those without any family (maybe the family members are dead, or imprisoned or mentally incapacitated, or are away at work for most of the time). The elderly patient that needs care and supervision is not transported to an empty building and dumped off. The nursing home (or hospital) would be risking a major lawsuit. That's partly why you shouldn't move in with him in the first place. You don't want to put yourself in that position.
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Take a break. Not necessarily permanent. Start off with 30 days of no contact. Then go for a "VISIT". That means no cleaning or caretaking. Reassess the situation. Honestly stop trying to help. He doesn't appreciate it. And he gets to make his own decisions even if they are bad. Just be clear that when it hits the fan, you will not be on clean up crew. He doesn't care about the penalties because he assumes someone will come to his rescue. Sounds like he has enough relatives that it doesn't have to be you. Stay strong.
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