As of late I have seeing way more posts than usual about people feeling 'guilty' for placing a LO in care or for saying 'No' to unreasonable demands from a needy LO who behaves abusively to us.
Now the newest one is fear and anxiety over potential future feelings of guilt and how to avoid them.
What is everyone so afraid of? We're all adults here.
This is for anyone who feels guilty for doing absolutely nothing wrong or who is terrified of the possibility of potential guilty feelings in the future when dealing with their needy 'loved ones'.
Ask yourself this question and always be honest with yourself.
Do you really have a legitimate and true reason to feel guilty? Did you deliberately cause someone harm or pain? Were you intentionally cruel to a person? Did you take from them or fraud and scam them?
If your answer is 'no' then you have no reason to feel guilty. So don't impose it on yourself.
When a person sets boundaries with a needy person, especially a needy elder that they're a caregiver to, that is not wrong and not a reason to feel guilty for wrongdoing.
Standing up for yourself and walking away from an abusive caregiving situation where a LO weaponizes their neediness to control and manipulate you is no reason to have any feelings of guilt.
Having to place a LO in a care facility for their own good or because you cannot quit your job, home, family, marriage, and life to become a slave to their care needs 24/7 is also not a reason to feel guilty.
All of this self-imposed guilt people are laying on themselves when they've done nothing wrong is absolutely ridiculous.
If you do have these feeling of guilt for saying 'no' or for placing a LO, allow yourself to experience those feelings then you can deal with them.
It's okay if placing your parent, spouse, or LO in a care facility doesn't make you feel happy. It's not supposed to.
You're not doing wrong if this decision has been made, so no guilt.
Never fear feelings. Being afraid to feel something is usually worse than the actual feeling itself.
Give yourselves a break. No more guilt when you aren't doing anything wrong.
And I agree 100%.
I hear that! I've been so done with the guilt-trip, gasligting nonsense for a long time.
Where does this "Happy all the time" come from?
Who EVER at ANY TIME IN LIFE is happy all the time.
If these parents have got to this age then they have already survived 100s and 100s of instances, of periods of time when they were not happy for one reason or another.
I do not understand this feeling of WHOLE AND TOTAL responsibility these caregivers seem to insist on lugging about everywhere they go.
What is that all about?
I guess, often enough, we see this with children who were ABUSED all their lives.
So perhaps I just answered my own question about what that feeling of worthlessness and guilt is all about.
It was trained into them. And they hold on to it for dear life.
Also, many use the "Guilt Word" to justify their not making a decision. Translated=an excuse.
Oh! I cannot do it because I would feel guilty. The buzz word of the 21st century.
It keeps one stuck sometimes on purpose as they are unable to manage their own life, hence they live with their LO as they are unable or unwilling to forge their own way in life.
It felt wrong to say no. Kind of like guilt, as my job is to be useful. Plus this Jerk holds rank.
But I am NOT his servant.
There was a link posted I must find & repost.. Oh I can't find it.. Dang.
Yes there are A-holes out there!
I have been RELEASED. Why feel even a speck of guilt saying no to such a self-centered jerk.
THIS.
Many (all?) of us have been taught to respect our elders & superiors.
Even to obey our parents.
This does not give rights for the elders to enslave.
In families (or workplaces).
This is possibly a sexist stereotype, but if women are more prone to guilt (plausible given social expectations of them) then perhaps they are more likely to attempt to lessen their guilt in this way.
Wow! I never heard the term before but I do know the type!
Met one last month.
Flew in, yelling & directing. Dad has been DRIVING! Lives ALONE & has been doing FINE!!
Oh? Your Father? Who had a stroke 2 months ago? Has been in rehab ever since, cannot walk, some confusion, has heart disease. Just had a fall & broke his hip...
That saying "no" is quite the thing.
When I recently had my go-round with Kaiser I was told by the Ultrasound tech "You will be back. They always win. No matter what, they will get you back" (for Core puncture).
I smiled at her gentleness and said "Oh, hon, old RN here. You don't know ME".
And I saw all the ways they tried to do it their way. Including official letters. Including going through my own doctor (which I knew was plan A when they said "Do you have a good relationship with your PCP?")
All the ways to get the wanted "yes" out of you. Start with kindness and end with threats of "Well I don't know if a surgeon will see you if........ blah blah blah".
As I entered a dressing room the tech whispered to me "I hope you win your fight".
She's seen it all.
Everything is used to get the "yes" from us. And women are very susceptible. Not so long ago those who were "hysterical" (look up the history of THAT word for certain) were just kind of locked away.
Social workers can be masters at it....the fine art of getting to "yes". I heard the same phrases used over and over. "We can get you help". "We will make this work". "You won't be alone in this". Ummmmm. No, they can't get the help, it won't work, and you will be utterly alone.
People shudder at the thought of being dubbed "unpleasant" or "unreasonable" and it is why I always told my patients to "make noise!" Worded well in the era of metal urinals. Plastic is so much less effective when thrown out into the hallway.
Say "no". I wasn't a huge fan of the Reagans, but Nancy had a point. "Just say NO".
The world will not crumble. You can start out gently. You don't have to say it with a sledgehammer. At least not until you work up to that point.
But practice the fine art of saying "no."
Remember Ahmijoy? (I STILL miss her)
She used to tell people here to say "Oh. No. I couldn't POSSIBLY do that".
My mother told me “ You will be sorry if you ever put me in a home “.
And yes , Alva is correct , it comes from parents abusing and controlling their adult children their whole lives .
And yes , why do so many elderly expect us to make sure they are happy ? Why do the flying monkeys complain to us that LO ( my FIL) wasn’t happy as if we have to do something about that ?
We didn’t make them old , we didn’t cause the death of their spouses.
Why do some think we have to make it up to them because they are old ??? I want to know where this entitlement comes from.
Why do we have so many questions asked here about traveling with someone with dementia “ on one last cruise “.
They’ve already done that , it’s over . Why would someone risk being stuck in the middle of the ocean with someone with dementia , freaking out that they don’t know where they are?? We don’t owe them one last vacation .
My grandparents didn’t act like this . I don’t get it . But the next generation especially on DH’s side never thought they would get old and refuse to adapt . Meanwhile people like this are making us age faster . Sheez .
During my third stint of caregiving , I was able to not feel as guilty for not fulfilling requests .
Also, this new belief in thinking one must be "happy" all the time. Or obsessing over the last of something. The 'last' vacation with the elderly LO with dementia. The last celebration. The last this and the last that. There's a first for all things and a last. People being obsessed about does not change this fact.
Our current elderly population is a whole new breed. I remember when my grandfather stayed with us for a few weeks when I was a kid. He couldn't live alone anymore and was going into assisted living. He actually ended up going to a nursing home. He made zero demands on my mother or his other kids. He felt terrible that he even had to stay with us because he didn't want to be a bother to anyone. He never complained even in the nursing home where he lived for two years before he died.
He is the man who fathered my mother the most entitled, demanding, gaslighting, manipulative, guilt-tripping, instigating narcissist of all time. Yet he expected nothing and was grateful for anything anyone did for him. He even insisted on paying while he was with us.
@way
If either of my parents ever told me I'd be sorry for putting them in a home, I would take that as a challenge to get them into a "home" as fast as I could.
I know the 'daughter from Cali' all too well and have interacted with her for 25 years when I was doing homecare. When I was out in California I got her sister the 'daughter from New York'. I get a few calling the office from time to time demanding detailed updates on their LO. I tell them all the same thing. Ask your LO to update you, or talk to the POA because privacy laws do not permit me to discuss any client's care with anyone who is not their legal representative. Sometimes I get a 'Karen' who wants to talk to my supervisor. That's always good for a laugh.
Sometimes I even say: 'Please hold while I connect you'.
Then I pick up the line and say: 'Hello, this is the supervisor, secretary, owner and proprietor of this establishment. Please refer to what I told you thirty seconds ago'.
I think we all should show ourselves a little kindness and forgiveness instead of beating ourselves up with guilt over nothing.
Some people will experience these feelings and others won’t. Emotions are not a ‘one size fits all’ kind of thing.
Parenting today is totally different than it was years ago. Some children were programmed from a very young age to feel a certain way.
Programming also occurred from extended family members, in schools and some churches.
Plus, every family has their own personal family dynamics that they have had to deal with.
They had the mindset that children should be seen and not heard. Consequently, children were not allowed to voice their opinions.
Healthy communication skills weren’t learned. Family discussions or family therapy sessions weren’t common.
Very often it takes therapy to learn how to walk away from a lifetime of feeling a certain way.
We shouldn’t expect people to instantly know how to change. This behavior is all that they have been exposed to.
Sometimes people don’t realize how bad things were until they go off to college and discover a whole new world.
It is tragic when people are raised this way, sometimes their parents were hurt as well and the cycle continues.
All we can do is encourage people to find their own path in life. They are confused and suffering.
They definitely don’t need to be shamed for how they feel, especially since it’s the only thing that they have known all of their lives.
We have to balance sharing honesty about what happens when cycles aren’t broken, along with empathy and support.
It can be challenging for someone who has dealt with ‘FOG, fear, obligation and guilt’ to come out of it. I love when forum members tell a new poster to read up on FOG.
Hopefully in time, with the help of others they will learn to follow a new path, no longer be confused by what was taught to them in their youth and break free.
I commend them for reaching out. That is the first brave step. It can be difficult to open up and talk about painful things.
Those of us in F.O.G. - I totally agree - we MUST get out of it. But its not so easy to implement as some suggest. The F.O.G. has been beaten into us over decades.
We MUSt do it to get out . But it takes time, work and reinforcment. Let's support each other.
Please dont slam us for NOT instantly getting out of the F.O.G. . We are trying hard. For those long timers through Burnout, its easy to say " read up on F.O.G. and get out of it". but its not so easy to implement. Take it easy on us. Lets all support each other .
It certainly isn’t easy to get out of FOG. Everyone should read about how FOG affects individuals.
Whenever I have seen posters recommending to new posters to read about FOG, they have suggested it in a compassionate and respectful way.
I have read your posts and know that you are trying your best.
It’s counterproductive to be overly critical to someone who is just beginning to find their way out of the FOG. That person is taking baby steps until they are more comfortable.
I do have to say though that the reason I respected my therapist so much, during my time of need, was because he is a no nonsense kind of guy who didn’t pull any punches. He had compassion for me in my situation, but gave me the tools that I needed to move forward in my life.
No one here is telling anyone to just snap out of years of conditioning and often abuse from a parent, spouse, or other family. No one is saying that.
Please refer to MeDolly's comments because she is spot on right. Many caregivers take the guilty feelings they have and use them as an excuse to not manage their own lives. Then they become resentful martyrs who blame being the caregiver for everything they didn't get or do in their lives. Once a person goes down that rabbit hole it's hard to get yourself out. It's not impossible though.
The F.O.G. goes both ways because often parents do it to their kids. Mom and dad will lay the guilt-trip on the kids and blame them as the reason for why they didn't become jet-setting, billionaire, Nobel-laureates who solved climate change, ended global poverty, and cured cancer. It's the same thing.
So go back and read my original post. Read it again and it will make sense to you.
Guilt is only a feeling. Don't fear it. Feelings come and go and adults can choose how they react to them.
I'm the first person who will encourage someone to go into therapy to get help working through those hard feelings. I did and it really helped me.
Establishing boundaries with my parents and putting myself on my list of priorities in my own life has helped me more though.
I reported your comment to the administrators for abuse for it to be removed. This is not the first time you have tried to market this product to people on a thread.
This forum is not a marketplace. Peddle your snake oil elsewhere.
I think that phrase is saying a similar thing to your point. Our feelings make us feel bad, and feel like we are not ok. If I think for a minute, and think beyond my feelings, I realize that I am actually ok! I guess I need to do this more often, and separate feelings out from reality. Guilt is one of those.
Are you a sales representative for these herbs?
BurntCaregiver’s post has nothing to do with what you are saying.
You have made this post on several different threads. It is completely out of context to the subject. I have reported it.
By the way, my mother had Parkinson’s disease. Not once, did her neurologist say that Ayurvedic herbs would help her with her symptoms.
FIRST CAREGIVER STORY: Back in the caveman days, 37-year-old mom and granny is wounded by a woolly mammoth. She's an old lady, has no teeth, her hair's falling out, and she won't survive the winter. Two sons, ages 15 and 20, both fathers, argue about leaving mom behind in the cave. First son: "Man, we can't do that! The sabre-tooth tigers will grind her into a pile of bones." Mom moans and groans, "Yaba yaba! If you leave me I curse you and your children unto 14,000 generations!" Other son says, "Yeah, we can't leave mom, I'd feel terrible and my 3 kids and 14,000 generations after me would suffer. You carry mom the first 500 miles across the tundra, I'll carry her the second 500 miles." First son: "Nah. You do it. I'm outta here." But as an old man of 35, this guy feels guilt as he's on his deathbed. He shoulda helped younger brother care for poor old mom. Then maybe his brother and his mom would have survived the rockslide that killed them right outside the mouth of their cave. And his last four children wouldn't have been born dead.
Guilt, baby. We all got guilt.
I was picturing Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble . Yaba Daba Do. 😂😂
In the prehistoric times the 37 year old would have been the elder LOL. The story is hilarious though. I'm seeing the caveman scene in Mel Brook's 'History Of The World'. Thanks for the laugh.
I don't think people had guilt back then. They didn't have time for it. Their whole life was spent finding food, not getting killed, and making sure the fire stayed on. I think it evolved with us over time. Man got more complicated and so did his feelings.
@strugglinson
I'm glad you read the post again and found it helpful. When you feel guilty about anything, take a minute and ask yourself if you did anything to feel guilty for. I'm going to guess that you don't.
No one is perfect. I've lost my temper many times over the years. One thing I learned that I didn't know for a LONG time, is that you don't apologize when you're not wrong and not to guilt myself.
It was only when I became part of a family that didn't have scapegoats and didn't behave like mine that I started to learn that it wasn't my fault. Therapy helped too.
I have a relationship with my mother and try to help her out as I can and on my terms of course. I haven't apologized to her for anything in probably 30 years. I've fallen into the guilt trap here and there but nothing I couldn't handle.
I wish us all guilt-free thoughts, peace, and contentment.
~BC 1/25/24
The "F" and the "G" have just got to go, ASAP. Actually, I've done pretty well with the Fear already. In about 3 weeks, the feeling/ sense of fear is no longer occurring!
The Guilt is a bit harder, thoughts/feelings of guilt still do appear but are getting less. I need to get them to zero as soon as possible.
The "O" part is trickier. This aspect I'm sure varies among us, but much of the Obligation comes from a lifetime of training it into us since childhood, and is perpetuated now by family and family friends and what they 'expect" us caregivers to do. So its a tougher one to wrestle with and deal with, I'm finding. But I'm determined to deal with it. In addition, I have been reading classical stoic philosophy the past year or so (Epictetus/ Marcus Aerelius type of stuff), but the problem is stoic philosophy in some aspects advises the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve (it advocates adopting a sense of martyrdom , which I no longer want to have any more)......
Like grieving these feelings will come and go. Don’t put so much pressure to get “ it down to zero” . One day at a time .
You’ve already come a very long way in a short period of time . Well Done !!