POA has denied me access to my mother's room at the nursing center. Can this be legal?

ML, it sounds as if the NH has a policy about "protected mealtimes." They may call it something else, that's just the term that the NHS in the UK uses, but this is what it's for:

Feeding older and disabled people is a time-consuming task, in an environment where the staff are under pressure. Especially with dementia patients, the more noise and bustle there is going on, the harder it is to keep their attention on eating. And the more people there are coming and going, and asking questions, and making requests for things to be done, the harder it is for the staff to concentrate just on getting their one patient fed as well as possible.

So during mealtimes, which are prolonged, they don't want visitors getting in the way. It's a practical matter, pure and simple.

Regarding the swallow test, it seems very unlikely that this hasn't already been done. It is very possible, though, that under rules of confidentiality the staff cannot tell you about it; and your mother probably wouldn't have known it was happening even if she were able to remember well enough to tell you. All she'd be aware of is being asked to drink a little, or eat a little yoghurt or ice cream, and having somebody watch her closely and place a stethoscope on her throat. There's not much to it for her to notice.

To answer your two last questions: you can't order a swallow test, and neither can the POA. This is a diagnostic test that would be ordered by your mother's physician or requested by the nursing or care staff. But in any case, as before, I think it very unlikely it hasn't been done.

How do you know your mother is not being fed a chemical to slowly deteriorate her ability to swallow, you ask? I am not sure whether you mean to suggest that the deterioration might be a side effect of some medication or other, or whether, in all seriousness, you mean to imply that some ill-intentioned person might be setting out to impair further her already compromised swallowing reflex. But either way - why, would anyone do that? For what possible reason? You can rest assured that this is not happening simply because it would serve no conceivable purpose for anyone involved. There is no money to be made from accelerating her decline. There is no time to be saved by increasing her level of disability. Quite the opposite, on both counts. What other motive do you have in mind?

You say that you are coming to accept that your mother's condition is deteriorating naturally. It sounds as if you have a way to go yet. That's only natural; it is a hard thing to come to terms with; but I think you will find that there is comfort waiting for you when you get there.

Momlover, your postings are becoming more bizaar as times go on. You are becoming paranoid and misinterpreting what is being said to you in the responses. You are a poor candidate for guardianship of your mother. You are clueless about the proper care for your mother and your mental soundness is questionable. I do say though, your postings have been quite entertaining these past two weeks.

I am not as you all know given to scriptural quotes but this seems to fit the bill perfectly taken from Jeremiah 5:21

‘Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not’

Typo don is son .

Jeannegibbs and LucyCW I am concerned that some is putting my Mom on purée with nectar when until yesterday she was drinking water and Boost according to CNA G and Nurse A. I was kind to Nurse A and introduced my don to her as she explained the consistency of her liquids like you explained Jeannegibbs, but why didn't they know about nectar before I told them and she hadn't had s throat test the way Jeannegibbs explained it on video. I question is someone entering wrong information that makes my mother's health is declining more rapidly than what it actually is declining and God forgive me if I'm wrong but her ability to speak and throat problems and throat strain has been increasing since eating the nursing center food as the SW had stopped me from seeing my mother before 12 noon and after 5pm so I can't tell if the food is bothering her as her roommate has cursed and used profanity not to have to eat the food. How do I order a swallow test without the POA? How do I know my Mom is not being fed a chemical to slowly deteriorate her ability to swallow.

Jeannegibbs and LucyCW thanks 20p and a pound for spending so much time with me and giving me advice. I really have a difficult time with faith and leaving this material world behind. I visited Mom with my son today. He was the A student and I received an F as he asked my Mom if she wanted stay there but she didn't answer and I was afraid she thought I let her down because I have been promising to get her home for over a year, so I told my son not to ask her anything that would make her unhappy. I felt compelled to tell her we were still waiting for the judges' decision as Jeannegibbs described a swallow test that will make me accept the reality or God's plan for my Mom to be with me or nursing center right now as the CNA and nurse said they had been giving her water and Boost without any thickening substance so there are abrupt declining changes or evaluations in her health right now. LucyCW I will exercise God's fruits of the spirit at the private nursing center and pray that my kindness blinds them as you suggested LucyCW. I hope it was an angel😇 that made me tell my Mom that I was waiting for the judges' decision as my Mom has been asking and I've been promising for over a year. I am sorry I disappointed you both because you have grown me so much in caregiving perspectives. After the swallow test I will be more accepting and understanding of my mother's stage in life, so what I'm trying to say is that my Mom may not need assistance at the touch of a button if my Mom passes the swallow test LucyCW. Thank you Jeannegibbs for the visual swallow test information. My Mom's hair was done nicely by CNA G and she was dressed well. My Mom was quiet as she ate two strawberry yogurts . My son asked if she remembered him but she didn't say much until he moved from across the table to go sit next to her. My son and I lived with my Mom since he was six until he was about 17 on the first floor of my sister's 2-flat. My Mom held his hand for s long time to show she knew him. I used my iPhone 6+ to show her 40s and 50s videos and I took pictures with her but my son didn't like me taking pictures because he didn't want me to text them, so I told him I wanted to use them for our memories like you suggested LucyCW, and she had a grip on a deck of cards with her left hand do I wanted to see if her condition changed since the picture. My Mom didn't have any interest in saying the names of the cards, she was an avid rummy player, or listening and looking at the YouTube performances as she only has interest in going home with me IMO. My son is grown and I live alone and never married at 54 and have experienced no greater love than my Mom's love.❤️

ML, my three sisters and I visit Ma in the NH at least once a week each. We are on good terms with the staff. After each visit we email the other 3 so we keep up with what is going on. I am going to share part of my most recent email to my sisters, to give you an example of other things to do when visiting someone in an NH.
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Ma was sitting in the dining room at a table with J when I got there. They each had several magazines and coffee. I joined them. I haven't finished the valentine pinafore for Ma's doll but I brought it anyway. I was right -- Ma got a big kick out of seeing the unfinished dress and the lace and ribbon. J especially loves seeing that doll. She always talks about her doll collection. G joined us briefly and she is a doll lover too. J asked if I was professional doll clothes maker. I talked about making doll clothes in high school. Ma was happy with the talk but it didn't strike any memories. Then I remembered about making Barbie Doll clothes and packaging them on cardboard wrapped in Saran and Dad selling them in his favorite bar. Ma was amazed. She sure didn't remember that! So we concluded I must be a professional doll clothes maker, since I got paid for some. :)

I don't know how it came up, but I talked about the potato sacks of little toys and trinkets Ma got for us for trips to SD. J said, "You have a very good mother. You have happy memories." I agreed. She said, "Not everyone does." And I agreed with that, too. We've been lucky.

Ma seems to like to hear about the past even if it is all news to her. I've talked about Herkimer P. Jones, the cat, a few times. Any little tidbit of a memory makes her smile. I think the assurance that she was a good mother must be comforting.

I think I'll go again Monday. Then her doll will fit in with the great valentine theme in the room.
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That time I just sat with her and a couple of other residents and we talked about things from our past. They were all happy memories. Ma did not consciously remember any of them, but it made her happy to know she had had a good life. The other ladies got some attention, too, and felt gad to be included. When the aide came around with evening snacks they all chose ice cream and were very polite to her, as was I. We spent the entire visit in the community room. At the very end I wheeled Ma back to her room, got her oriented ("Your plants are all healthy looking, but I think you need a new one with blooms on it.") and called for an aide. When she came I said "I know this is a very busy time for you, but I want you to know that Mom is tired now, so please add her to the getting-ready-for-bed list." The aide thanked me an left. I made sure Ma had something to read while she was waiting, and I left, too.

You can have a very meaningful visit with someone in an nh without spending time in her room at all, and even if she can't remember the stories you tell, and even if there are other residents around. You can let the nh staff supervise what snack is provided.

Visit you mom. Honor the conditions for your visits. Do not talk negatively about other family members. Do not talk negatively about the staff. Do not talk negatively about the facility. If you have complaints or concerns, talk to the appropriate people, outside of Mom's hearing. Share happy memories. Share memories of times Mom did something good or nice or funny. Leave the unhappy memories out. Don't say "Do you remember when ..." but start out "Mom, I remember when ..." (Took me a while to make that a habit.)

Often I do some activity with my mother, but it is also OK to just sit and talk.

I look forward to hearing about your next visit. (Got to go and finish a doll dress now ...)

Momlover, just read Jeane's reply to you ~ please listen to her.

We'd like to hear about visits with your Mum, BUT we none of us can keep reading over and over how evil your sister is, how nasty the staff at the NH are or how personally persecuted you are.

Remember this is her Mum too, she too is a "Momlover" and she must be in so much pain because she made the right, the best and the only sensible decision for her/your Mum.
She knew she could not continue to care for your Mum the way she needed to be cared for.

She didn't turn to the other "Momlovers" in you family, you and siblings because she knew that for your Mum's safety it was vital she be where professional people are on hand at the push of a button.

I don't for one second think she's evil or that she has the time/energy to spend planning ways to hurt you, stop you being with Mum.

She is trying (just as you are) to protect the Mum she so dearly loves. Sadly instead of being able to share this role with you, she's ended up having to fight you over and over.

You write that she's banned you from seeing Mom and she says that you give out too much info about Mom to other family members.

Ok, remember that shoe swopping? time to try again.....in your sister's shoes for a minute.

She loves your Mum, she feels guilty at her decision even though she knows it to be the right one. Then she hears that you are sending information about her/your Mom to family members.
Do these people visit Mum? Are they in regular contact phoning to chat, writing, sending pretty postcards to brighten her room and bring the outside/wider world to her?
If they are in touch why do they need your reports? If not what about your Mom's right to privacy? Has she asked you to contact these folk? To talk about her? To wash the family's dirty laundry like this?

Ok to the Staff, please re read my private message to you on your board.

I'm not saying I told you so, but you've posted here that using my "protocol" with your Mum has worked and I'm truly delighted for you both.

How about trying with the staff? If they are all the horrors you believe them to be. Then you be the better person, blind them with kindness so they can learn to change their ways.
On the other hand if they are (as I believe to be true) hardworking people, doing a thankless task for way too many hours and far too little money.
A job that is far more vocation than job then these Angels deserve at the very least a thank you for the hours they put in behind the scenes.

You see Momlover, sadly your Mum is not their only charge and I bet not all the people they care for have a "Momlover" in their lives either.
So these Caring People the staff you denigrate so often are caring for many people with many different medical conditions/needs.

They are spoon feeding, tube feeding, giving trays. As you've observed this routine can change in a week too. Changing nappies (diapers), wiping bottoms, creaming against sores, taking others to the toilet.
Dressing/undressing those who can't, encouraging those who can to do so, trying to persuade those who can and do at inapropriate times not too.
Dealing with medication, checking those who hide it, won't/can't swallow.
Trying to bring comfort to those locked away in the past wanting Mums and Dads long dead, trying to explain to lost/frightened patients why they can't go home. Especially as for some of them {like me}, that "home" is a yesterday place long gone if it ever existed outside their imagination/longing.
Dealing through the night with nightmares, calls for another drink, the loo, a story. Not just your Mum, but all those other Mums, Dads and people who never got the chance to be parents.
So many people, so many different stories, so much happiness and pain in all those bodies.

Through all this Management is breathing down their necks to cut corners, get more out of less, turn a penny into at least a 20p if not a pound (sorry not au fai with US currency). Make not one but several silk purses from a single sow's ear.

If that's not enough, they lose patients they've cared for but they are only "staff" so their grieving holds no place.
They are berated by patient's family (Momlover and your ilk) who are sure these overworked people are lying.

Now Momlover, lets be honest in the time you've written here you've certainly given them enough grist to their mill with Your attitude/actions but honestly with all they have to do in a work shift do you really think they've the time or the inclination to plot against you?
I think it more likely if they've a second free to think, then they are wondering how to take care of their own families, perhaps working out how to squeeze precious time from frantic schedules to visit their aged parents in a NH facility. Hoping that their own children are nicer/ more understanding of care staff when they put their M's & D's in an NH.

If my approach with your Mum helped you both, then I'm going to suggest you try this too. Smile (nicely) at each member of staff you pass. Honey yields better results than vinegar.
Now that I would like to hear about! What response do you get? How many forced smiles before a real one? Did you feel better for it?

More suggestions for your Mum, does she have a favourite perfume? Check!!! it would be okay to put a little on her after she's had her hair brushed, If she would like.
If staff and Mum agree perhaps you could "gently" cream her feet/legs, arms/hands to keep circulation moving and keep her feeling physical contact.
You talk of wanting to bring her into the wider community, this right now isn't safe for her so bring the wider community to her.
NO ML, not lots of visitors! Instead photograph/video the places/people you want her to see. Get the people to write her little notes, draw a picture, write a postcard.
Start a memory book of places, people, memories of things she did with you and take it in to share with her.
When she is called to the next chapter this could be a lovely memory for you of time shared.

Ask those charged with her care, what they believe would be useful/helpful to her. Then Listen to their answer.
As a teacher yourself you know the formula of listening, inwardly digesting what you heard then acting.

By actions like these you will show your sister and the staff that truly your Mum is safe with you and you do care more for her needs as they truly are, than her needs as you choose to interpret them.

Remember ML how in the New Testament it states that in a gathering of people no one will truly speak in tongues or have visions unless there is someone to interpret them?
Some will speak in tongues or have visions that have no interpretation. These people are not lying, they are just so seized with a love of God they want to have these gifts. They forget that there are other gifts to be had too.

Well, the way I see it it's a bit like that at the moment for you and your Mum.
At this stage in her life in the NH (a gathering of people) you need to have confirmation of God's will for her by checking the messages you belief she gives you, or the need you perceive see with the staff around her.
They know things that you can not know. They don't have your precious memories of the lady she was.
Instead they have the knowledge of the lady she is.
They know how she slept/or didn't last night, whether she managed to have breakfast, has she been to the loo?
These things ML at this time in her life are not yours too know, any more than they were yours to know as you were growing up.
She is your Mum, you are her child. Right now her dignity is of necessity being drained at every twist and turn.
You ML have the power to keep some of it for her. Let the staff know and tell you these things (as and when you need the info) so that for a while longer you keep your Mother/child balance.
The scales are tipping don't take this time from her by tipping them sooner.

Trust that God who so loves a sparrow that he is sees it fall from the sky, loves your Mum enough that he has set the right people in her life right now to comfort and care for her.
Not instead of you ~ but rather right there alongside you. Just as He helped you to find this forum and the people here who have done their best to help you.

While I'm being all scriptural, and no I'm not a Christian, I'm a practising {practising because I've still a lot to learn} Taoist, a follower of Tao.
I'm using Christian scripture because what I'm quoting I believe in the truth off and because I know the Bible to be important to you.
While we share this part of the path in our walk through life it makes sense to me to speak to you in language you understand and believe in the validity and truth off.
Especially as in your fear for your Mum you see yourself hedged all around by people who lie to you.
Remember ML that You have within you The Fruits of The Spirit and to use those fruits glorifies God and thanks Him for His Son. It also bestows His blessing on those you offer the fruits to. Do correct me if I'm wrong, it is many years since I studied the Bible at Uni, but I believe "The fruits of the Spirit are Love, Joy, Peace. Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, Self Control."
What a showing of God's great mercy were you to go into the NH displaying these gifts to those you meet as well as to your Mum.
Wishing you well, yesterday, today and all your tomorrows. Lucy Caitlyn

Momlover, I'd like to know too, really am hoping you can enjoy time together and build those other bridges.

Momlover123, I don't think you quite get it. I REALLY don't want to hear, over and over, about your evil sister and when your mother broke her leg and how mean and unreasonable the private nh staff is. Really. Skip that stuff -- you won't have so much to type.

But it is good to hear about your actual visits. Does you mother like getting her hair brushed? Some people really enjoy that. (My husband did!) Lotion and a light massage is very pleasant for some people. Take your cues from how she reacts.

If Gwenie had answered, what were you going to talk to her about? Nothing that would disturb your mother, I hope! When my step-daughter goes to visit her birth mother in the nh she sometimes pre-plans a call to her uncles, to be sure they will be there and everyone is ready to talk.

About the orange juice -- your mom is on the kind of diet to help prevent aspiration pneumonia. Liquids can be dangerous, because they slip right down, sometimes before the little flap that protects the airway has a chance to close. If even water "goes down the wrong way" and winds up in the lungs it can cause havoc. Lungs are not meant to process food and liquids. So the solution is to thicken the liquids and they will take take just a tiny bit longer and give the flap a chance to close. Your mom can probably have orange juice or any other liquid she likes, but it should be thickened first. There is a powder for doing this that is clear and has no taste when stirred into a liquid. This can be done for coffee or orange juice or 7-up. Heck, I did it for my husband with beer and wine. The point is not to deprive your mother of her pleasure in food, but to prevent her from dying from pneumonia. Instead of barging in there with things YOU think she can eat, how about having a chat with the nutritionist or dietitian in the facility. Go humbly and to learn something. Learn what is available in the NH kitchen that mom could have for a snack when you come. Ask if there is anything you could bring from home as a treat. AND LISTEN TO WHAT THE EXPERT TELLS YOU. You really don't know everything, but I hope you are capable of learning.

You'd like to engage your mother's love of taste, but how would you like to arrive one day and have them tell you your mother has pneumonia? Find out the SAFER way for mom to enjoy OJ. If you could bring yourself to acknowledge that there might, just might, be legitimate reasons behind what staff does at the nh, you could be a much more constructive visitor.

BTW, I watched my husband's swallowing test live, on a monitor in another room. What I saw had me in tears. That poor little flap couldn't keep up with regular swallowing. It was a little better as they tried thick and thicker liquids. Then the tester and the speech therapist went over the video of it with us. It was sobering.

If you could manage to stay on the good side of staff, you could learn lots of ways to show your mother love without endangering her.

Caregivers thank you for bonding with my Mom and I.

Sorry for so many typos - due should be sue me for violating HIPAA when I did't even know where my Mom was until I text her and she finally told me she had my Mom 1/14/16 when I text her after she was screaming and threatening to stop me from visiting my Mom.

Yo is to. Due is due. Can is can't. Jeannegibbs we tried to call Aunt Gwenie in Kentucky but there was no answer. My sister's have convinced my Aunt that I am crazy and I broke my mother's leg Christmas Day even though my Mom was taken to the hospital and fitted for a cast 1/14/16. My Mom's knee is swallen double the size it was Christmas Day when she hurt it in transport, however the next day the hospital nurse about a mile away said she had severe arthritis and constipation but the X-rays showed no fractures or breaks and this was when Nurse L threatened to call the police on my mother's own daughter, me, and when both Nurse L and Nurse A said my mother was fine when I called 12/26/15. Jeannegibbs I will email you after my visit if they don't make an excuse. I have to keep a brush and hair dress with me because they are not brushing her hair and I can't get to her room and dressers I supplied and decorated.

OK is OJ for orange juice, typo .

Name typo is Jeannine and should be Jeannegibbs.

Jeannine the issue is that my Moms love for food has been snatched totally away from her just about in a blink of an eye. I tried to at least give my Mom OK and I was told that it had to be mixed with nectar first as this is radical treatment IMO as I was just told she only went on purée because she was holding food in her mouth. I'm afraid their trying set s healthy woman with only a history of stroke and mental illness up for hospice . Please calm my suspicion as my zMom is totally denied any table food or juice from me. Her life's pleasure of foods are denied and she is miserable IMO. I will try to see her from 12-5pm tomorrow with my son and they will probably give me some lame excuse . My Mom and I looked at each other for s long time Friday. Evelyn, another patient, said she loves you but she can show it right now. A visiting nurse practitioner said her cast had been taken off Friday and medications were on the way. My Mom went to PT all week but I am told there's not much improvement. I tried to wait to see her but I had to get back to work. I used LucyCW protocol and she liked being comforted by me lightly massaging her hands, legs, and shoulders. Her feet and right leg are still painful after removal of her cast and being fitted for a leg brace.

Jeangibbs I stayed only 15 minutes in between lunch break and about an hour after work as I am denied visiting before 12pm and after 5pm by sister POA and SW for no rational reason.

Jeannegibbs Friday I visited with my Mom in the multi-purpose room twice as the school where I was assigned was only a mile away. But, today I was told I could not see my my because she was being bathed and pout straight to bed, and I have been prohibited from her room because my Sister POA said I was sending family and friends too much information about my Mom and I was violating the HIPAA laws and she was going yo due me and stop me from seeing my Mom and she did stop me from seeing my Mom as the nursing makes up excuses for not bringing my Mom to the multi-purpose room where I am allowed to see my previous Mom.

Debdaughter SW will not let my mother consent. If that's what you are asking.

ML, here is what I would like to hear from you:

How did your visit go with your mom today? How about yesterday? How long did you stay each day? What did you do together? What did you talk about?

And I'd like to hear about your visit tomorrow, too. And the next day.

Now that you have decided to go visit your mother at her home, the nursing home, how is that going for you both?

Tell us about each visit. Did you have joys? Were there some issues? How did you handle them? Do you need any advice?

momlover, I would like to know as well.

as far as the vent issue, I suppose it's possible, but my understanding is they couldn't have done that without her consent; at least I was given to understand that with my dad, that if I hadn't consented, they couldn't have but they weren't going to continue to keep him there either

Momlover, I really would like to hear more of how this turns out for Mom and for you. I hope you can stay involved with her and her care without so much conflict, even if there are limitation that have to be observed, and that it will be a comfort to her as well as to you.

Debdaughter if I'm not out of line it seems the hospital took it off because the estranged wife refused to make a decision. Right?

Everyone I agree with you. It's not about me. It's about my Mom. If you want me to let you know the outcome let me know . My sister POA did not answer the appellate brief and I am awaiting judges' decisions. I'm so sorry if I am offending anyone. Please forgive me. This is the last post unless someone has anymore questions or advice.
Thanks, ML

Ladylee1115 thank you for your insight and well-rounded schemata of NH and care.

This has got to stop! Figure it out already!

ladylee, who then took the vent off that man?

Cathberry could not agree more

Can we all agree--ENOUGH ALREADY

We all live in different areas of the country, NH care can be very bad in some areas, Medicaid NH can be even worse than your imagination.
In some families, caring for a parent or children gives your POWER and prestige in the family setting. Many couples fight over custody of children during divorce and this reminds me of children fighting over custody of the Mother.
Who ever is the better daughter wins custody of the parent!
Many of us have experienced situations where siblings differ in their opinions about how to care for, feed, medicate, and where to place a parent.
I worked with a family just a few weeks ago where the siblings wanted to pull the plug on life support for a man who had a motorcycle accident and was in a coma with very little brain function. The Estranged (20 years) wife had decision making power and she refused.
What do you know but they took the vent off and he breathed on his own, woke up, got out of bed. He is now in a Veterans Rehab facility and is walking.
WE DON"T ALL AGREE ON HOW TO CARE FOR OUR LOVED ONES.
Sometimes people " Momlover" have unrealistic expectations of what it will mean to care for someone who is medically complex.
That doesn't mean that the parent doesn't beg to come home with you, or that the care received in a Nursing Home is not substandard.
My Heart goes out to everyone who has to watch a loved one suffer, feels powerless, and cannot do anything to fix a bad situation.
Family Mediation, Social Workers and as a last resort the courts can help decide what is in the best interest of an individual.
The tough pill to swallow is that once you take a family decision to the courts you are bound by the recommendation that is made.
I hope this is something you can live with and please try not to allow the disagreement over who is is charge of making decisions tear your family apart and cause your Mom stress.