My turn to ask for help about how to heal a breach with a difficult daughter.

"Sharper than a serpent's tooth," indeed...

I feel for the offensiveness of it, too. I have been tempted to remark to my DD1 that I would appreciate it if she didn't operate exclusively on the assumption that I am wrong.

I dare say I do too often insist that I'm right, and I dare say she has over the years found it irksome. But it doesn't follow that I must ALWAYS be wrong about everything.

I wonder if it took her too long to start questioning my judgement, so that when the scales did fall from her eyes they clattered down rather heavily? But I expect that's my fault too.

(sigh) Margaret. It sounds as though YD has some issues she needs to work out. I can't imagine how hurtful it must be to have one of your children cross at you for trying to be the best possible mom.

You can't possibly never say anything that won't upset her; real life ain't like that. I think backing off and letting yourself off the hook sounds like a great idea.

ETA: I just looked up a book I remembered reading a few years ago. It's called Walking on Eggshells, by Jane Isay. It's about relationships between parents and adult children.

What's really interesting is that there is a whole series of book and workbooks with the same "Eggshells" title that are about dealing with family members with Bordeline Personality Disorder.

((((Hugs))))).

This is mostly in reply to Country Mouse, plus my own thoughts this morning:

I’m looking objectively at the ‘well founded grievance’, CM, and I don’t think you need to blush. What ever you said or did, your intelligent competent son would have seen that the younger sisters were doing better academically. Son was lucky that they came behind him, not one year ahead, and that he was good at sport. He is now an adult who is grateful that he was ‘pushed’ to deal with being dyslexic. There are pluses and minuses in every childhood (and every adult life). The ‘first time in my life’ comment can’t be the whole story - that none of his teachers ever said that he was doing well, and that you never said one positive thing about an improved test result. I doubt if you tried to make him think he was stupid. I think you have both come out of it pretty well. Let yourself off the hook!

Mothers and others are quick to blame mothers. My YD was tall and very skinny (marfan body type again), and wouldn’t eat – except at other people’s houses. I had many experiences of being told kindly how much she had enjoyed particular foods, and how to prepare them. Grrrh! There was no-one else to blame, so this and all the other things had to be my fault. There were a lot of games played around food, and she ended up being counseled for juvenile anorexia symptoms.

Your comments have made me think about letting myself off the hook. I did my best as a single mother, DH1 was a much worse parent for which I bore the brunt. YD came out of it all a lot better than many other kids in comparable families. She does indeed appear to have a ‘Book of Grudges’, not a balance sheet of pluses and minuses. She has also caused me a lot of pain - emotional and also physical via stress and my own health issues. The last few days thinking this through have been killers for my scoliosis. I even gave up looking for jokes to cheer us all up!

I realise I am angry with her. I know that all I have to do is to present a false apology and never say anything she doesn’t like (if I can guess what), and the last 10 years could all be swept under the carpet. Stuff it! I can’t live with myself like that. She is over 40 and is responsible for her own behaviour. Her children are being well cared for. If they have their own problems, she might see things differently, and I can’t think of any other solution.

I think I just back off, as suggested. Thanks. CM, I found your comparison really illuminating.

I was on the way out the door when I wrote the last reply.

Another problem is personalities. There are people you have come across your personalities just don't jive. This is going to happen with your children too. My GF has 4 daughters and loves them all but she has said her youngest is different than the first 3. She seems to need her Mom more even as an adult. Some are more sensitive to things around them. They get hurt easily. When my brother got married, there was my 5 yr old and my other brothers daughter who was 6. Brides side had no small nieces. It upset me that my SIL chose my niece to be flower girl and didn't include my daughter. They were both the same coloring and long hair. I never said anything about how I felt and my daughter was invited to the wedding. (thought voicing it sounded petty) Years later my daughter, out of the blue, said that her Aunt never liked her. (I had this feeling but never voiced it, actually SIL didn't seem to like me either) She went on to say she was hurt that she hadn't been included in the wedding but she knew why, Her cousin was prettier, thin and she was fat. She was a little chunky but not fat. I always thought she was a pretty kid. Being a chubby kid when I was little and knew how it felt to be, I never made a big thing out of it. Like me, I knew she would outgrow it. But at 5 she felt fat and ugly. Nothing I instilled. Even though I tried to tell her otherwise, that is how she felt and still does. My Aunt thought she was just the cutest thing and made over her, but she thought she was ugly.

Not sure what I am trying to say. It may not be what you said, did or didn't say or didn't do. It could just be what her mind perceived.

Like...you were a working Mom but a friends Mom was able to stay home. In her mind she is mad at you for not being there when she came home from school like her friends Mom. A young child doesn't realize that you may have worked because you had to. That her friends Mom was able to stay home because her husband had a good job that allowed it.

We can't control how others perceive the world. And apologizing doesn't really change how they felt at the time. I do think your daughter needs to talk out these feelings with someone impartial. Like I mentioned how my oldest saw things and how my youngest saw the same things are so different. My youngest really wonders where her sister's mind was at the time.

So for now, for you, let it go. This is something your daughter needs to come to terms with. As she raises her kids, she may realize why Moms do what they do. We have been told by our oldest, who we had some problems with, that she realized we were the normal parents. That some of her friends parents were really messed up.

I think we as Mother's need to forgive ourselves. Dad's don't seem to get the same criticism. A lot is expected of us when bringing up children. We are suppose to be the one who nurtures. Some do it well others not so much. Why, because maybe our mother's weren't. We learn by example.
You can't raise two kids the same. You can set up rules they need to abide by but each child has their own needs and they don't know how to verbalize it as children. My two are like night and day. One very outgoing the other can be alone with herself. Very different interests. One very independent as a child the other not clingy but liked to know u were where she left you. Both have their issues with me. I just listen and not say your wrong. I have forgiven myself for not being the perfect Mother. In spite of me, they have grown up to be independent women. They support themselves. One lives up the street the other up the road about 5 minute drive. So they stayed close by. I don't see them everyday but we know each other is there.

They remind me they will be choosing my NH. I pray I can be independent till I die. Needing very little help. I will do what I can to make looking after me as easy as possible.

So Margaret, here's my theory, based on 66 years of observation of my own and others' families (and some professional perspective of same).

Families all have "story lines"-- myths, if you will, about who is smart and who is not. In some families, the "family business" is medicine, and if you're not in that line of work, you're "less then". Doesn't matter if you are a brilliant something else. You are less then and not in the club.

(There is a book called Treetops, by Susan Cheever. It's a biography of her mom's family. Totally worth the read. In which Tom Watson of IBM is thought of as Dumb Uncle Tom.)

So, you and OD and in the law/accountancy club. YD, with some pretty significant medical issues herself, joins the medicine club.

Gets to see herself as above the business world, still blames mom for not realizing it was Marfan's (SO much more is known about Marfans now than 25 years ago!) but still shut out of the Mom/OD club.

I think her resentment is much more multilayered than you realize and as CM says, it's nothing you can do much about.

I would, however, choose to see her offering up visits with the grandkids, no matter what the level of "supervision" in a heartbeat. Because it may be the best way to heal the breach and get her to know you in a less stressed way. If she is offering to send Son in Law along, she's simply saying SHE isn't ready to see you yet.

Give her space, spoil those kids a bit and tell wonderful stories about how clever YD was growing up.

(((Hugs))))

Sigh.

A mother's place is in the wrong...

Even if you, the parent generally, don't consciously make comparisons among your children, even if on deep reflection you can't accuse yourself of having done so unintentionally, that doesn't stop children comparing themselves to one another and making all sorts of inferences about the distinctions they perceive you to have made.

I have one that does make me blush. Son went to Sandhurst as a young politics graduate; towards the end of the year's training, cadets are counselled on their "choice of arms" - i.e. which regiment(s) in the army they might best apply to join. Son reported that the officer advising him began: "with your academic record, you should really be considering... " As Son said: "that is the first time in my life that anyone has commented favourably on my 'academic record.'"

I blush (still) because I know he was right, and I know it is a well-founded grievance that actually he has never complained about. Looked at objectively, his academic record was excellent. But because it was a struggle, because his younger sisters did better, because he was good at games and above all because the little sod was dyslexic and to me it felt as though he was doing it on purpose... never enough praise, always pushed to try harder. With the result that he thinks of himself as the family dunce.

And these beliefs stick, and they're infectious - they spread to teachers, tutors, professors, employers, because they come from the young person's self-image. Which YOU are then held responsible for having created.

Son says he doesn't blame me. When I apologised, years later, for the hundreds of hours of hell I put him through in my attempts to eradicate his dyslexia, he claimed he was grateful: "otherwise I'd be like all the other dyslexics, and it would be really embarrassing."

But did I have to make him think he was thick? He may not hold it against me, but I do.

Given that no two humans are the same, it is obvious and inevitable that a parent will interact differently with different children. It's not even a choice. I personally think it's also pretty much inevitable that you're going to find one child easier than another (though they can change places!), and - well. Love them more? No. But find them much, much less hard work and therefore pleasanter company? - certainly!

If YD is still regularly consulting her Book of Grudge you might just have to wait in hope that she will eventually get to the end and close it.

Margaret, are you and OD in the same line of work?

I have a theory here, not sure if it would lead to a solution, but need to know if you are similar fields.

I think YD may not realize how much time is wasting away being resentful-And very true what some have said about children’s perceptions are so different that parents-but seriously-she is an adult and needs to grow up-stop dwelling on her perceptions of her childhood and blaming you or it-
she has to be accountable for her behaviour now -rudeness, immaturity, holding grandchildren away from their grandmother etc. -those are on her.

You possibly can't fix this, you know.

Not least because it isn't all (not even nearly all) your doing in the first place. And certainly your grandchildren's understanding of your role and their mother's attitude to you is NONE of your doing.

I suppose the tracks on your broken record need to include "I love you very much and unconditionally" along with "I will not tolerate rudeness or unkindness in my home." Those messages are not mutually exclusive.

Was YD bullied, apart from by the Most Popular Girl in the school thing, I mean? Bullies - YD is bullying you and DH - often are just retaliating inappropriately.

Would you consider inviting YD and family to an outdoor occasion at your home?

Good luck in working on the issue. It's good you are wiling and open to the idea that it might have been something you said or did. Some parents are very opposed to that. They refuse to even consider for one minute that they favored one child over the other. Being first born and successful, doesn't make you immune from being ignored over younger and struggling siblings.

This statement you made right here......."Of course I tried for her to understand that I loved her just as much, but I couldn’t make her as successful as her sister (or me) in any of the ways that mattered to her." You have made her feel less successful than you or her sister, still, to this day, and that is what she is likely responding to. The feeling of being 'less than', that somehow, you love her 'just as much' as the more successful sister in SPITE of the fact that she's 'less successful' or maybe, a bit less deserving of equal love? The feeling of being 'less than' doesn't magically go away. For you to be making this statement NOW, today, this-many years down the road is a testament to the fact that you don't find your daughter as successful as you or your other child. Have you considered that she is MORE successful, perhaps, in OTHER ways, than you or your other child, and that you haven't recognized that talent, whatever it may be? What are you using as a measuring stick to gauge 'success'?

Some things can't be fixed. If she's been made to feel 'less than', intentionally or not, all these years, I'm not sure how such a thing can be remedied. Except to acknowledge what's happened and to express sorrow over the fact that it did.

I remember many years ago I told my son I was proud of him for something or another, I can't remember what exactly. He looked at me and said "I'm surprised to hear you say that." I asked why? He responded that he didn't think I felt proud of him for much of anything b/c of the fact that he was a very difficult adolescent with lots of trouble making going on. I sat him down, right then and there, to let him know that I held NO bad feelings against him for what he'd done as a KID, for petesake, and that all of his accomplishments to date were accomplishments I was and am proud of. Meanwhile, he has a job which uses none of his college degree skills............but it's a job HE is happy doing. And to me, that's what constitutes a 'successful' person: one who's found his purpose in life, whatever it may be.

Wishing you the best of luck Margaret.

I thought I answered this. I just want to say when and if the time comes your daughter tells you why she feels the way she does, listen and honor those feelings. Don't keep saying I am sorry. You can say, I didn't realize you felt that way and I apologize for not understanding. But sorry doesn't really get thru. Because right or wrong, this is how she perceived things at the time. We were told this when in counseling for my oldest child. Its a long story. A lot had to do with her father even though my now husband adopted her. TG for my youngest who gets away with telling her "thats not the way it happened" My youngest just told me about a birthday party I made her go to. Which she didn't want to attend for a baby cousin. Since their birthdays are only 3 days apart I think my SIL had kind of combined them. Just family though. My youngest is sort of an introvert. This lockdown has not effected her. I really didn't remember it but she did. I listened and told her I was not aware it effected her that way. My brother is kind of gruff she took it as he hollared at her. The day in all was not good for her. She was 10 at the time. I didn't tell her when she was done that one reason she had to go was because no one was home to watch her. And at the time I probably felt she was going because like my parents, that really isn't her decision. When my parents went somewhere all 4 kids went. We very seldom had babysitters.

My DH is one of 3. All 14 months apart. Their Dad liked sports and was involved an adult basketball and baseball leagues. He later played golf. He would ask all 3 boys, do you want to come and watch my games. Out if the 3 my DH was the only one who went. After they grew up and were married the youngest said Dad was never around. My husband piped up and said "you never wanted to go with him". No matter how many kids you have, they have their own perception of things.

I am tiny bit in your boat though reasons are different. My younger daughter was raised by my husband after divorce, and my older daughter was raised by me. I would lay at my own feet any failures. I think at seperation my younger daughter g made the decision for move with her Dad because she felt bad for him and he forced that decision on a 7 year old. It was easier for me to go on with my new life, even though I should have been smart enough to see where her decision left her. At some point the ex husband cut off my seeing the daughter. She essentially grew up without a Mom (me) who should have tried harder. We have never fully survived that, no matter examining it, admitting failure and so on. We have had times when we have visited on another and gotten along so well. She is estranged from the OD I raised. So I can identify with you. I will say that now I am in my late 70s and my daughters are in their 50s. I have a sort of glancing relationship with YD; we write at times, and long times can pass when we do not. We don't attempt to visit one another really. I would say this is the single worst thing/worst failure of my life. The thing I would do over had I a chance. And she knows that. And she understands my admiration for her having come so far as she has in her own life despite my neglect. But truth told, when we try to get closer it often just "doesn't work". For my own part I don't really know why? Too much water under the bridge. Too many failures that can't be changed. Too much suffering.
I am content now to have what I have. A realization my child did survive to be a decent kind human with a good quality life of her own without much help from me. I realize my mistakes and the great toll it took on both my daughter. But I am also too old to want hurt and upheaval in my life for things I did, cannot change and have already apologized for.
You might as your YD if she would want to see someone with you so that she could tell you what she wants you to hear. So you can tell her you did the best you could at the time and hope you would do it better were you allowed to do it over. That is about all there is. That and peace. I would not bring in a whole lot of upheaval and disruption into my life were I you. I HAVEN'T in my own situation. I believe the endings full of redemption happen more in novels than in life. I am at peace. I WILL do it better if I get a do over. I was wrong. I was weak. I honestly had no idea. But I have said all that. And it is now time to move on with life.

Thank you to the people who replied to my question. Just writing it down and thinking about the answers has helped a lot. After writing, I moved to the booze and then had a very bad night – I wonder if that often happens with posters? Yesterday I thought a lot more.

OD helped me to see that YD always felt second best as a child, and has wanted to climb every ladder she can find to ‘success’. Of course I tried for her to understand that I loved her just as much, but I couldn’t make her as successful as her sister (or me) in any of the ways that mattered to her. When she became a wife, mother, householder etc, it still wasn’t enough, and she probably did the common thing of pushing herself up by pushing me (and others) down. When this first started, she was about 30. I was shocked, and I probably could have reacted better. Since then I’ve done my best, including most of the things suggested. Nothing has worked, including joint counseling. It seems to me and DH that telling her I’ve finally worked it all out, will only make things worse. She needs to work it out herself, and until then I’m better off keeping a distance.

I know that many grandparents would be only too glad to have a chance to see the grandchildren. I realised almost immediately after things went wrong, that the grandchildren were going to be bait, big time. The last offer, nearly two years ago, was that SIL would bring them to a public place for me to see, without YD having to be there. I felt like an abusive parent with supervised access! I’m sorry that it affects them, and sorry that it affects OD (who would give a lot for the breach to be healed). I will try to worry less about it, and hope that time will help.

Thank you all for caring. Your ideas helped me along the way.

I feel I must disagree with my esteemed fellow board members who state that one should never discuss one adult child with the other(s). I follow a different rule: that one should never say anything behind someone's back that you wouldn't say to them directly. Having said that, sometimes other people can be very useful intermediaries, and sometimes it helps to be able to consult someone who might have better insight or more information.

My mother was, to put it kindly, a little dense sometimes. A bit lacking in EQ. Before I became her caregiver, I was usually the intermediary between her and her other kids, who generally resented her for a variety of reasons related to the aforementioned lack of EQ. For example, once when we were up North for the holidays, I suggested to my mother that we visit my younger sister and her family. My mother was surprised and asked why, and I told her "Because S feels bad that you don't show much interest in her or her kids." So we called and made arrangements, and spent a lovely afternoon with them.

Later, when I was caregiving, my sisters sometimes interceded on my behalf. The reason being, when I get resentful, I tend to get nasty. Someone less involved could be more diplomatic saying the same thing. Like "Carla would be happier if you'd take your own dishes to the sink, so she doesn't feel like a servant." or "You know you have a tendency to be a backseat driver, right? It really drives Carla crazy!" My mother would listen, and I really appreciated my sister intervening in a tactful way, as opposed to me blowing up at Mom when she made me crazy.

Just my opinion. And experience. Everyone else's mileage may vary.

Margaret, I'm sorry to learn of the challenges and hurt these issues have presented, and the difficulties you're facing because of them.

I don't have any interpersonal suggestions at this point but just wanted to suggest something to help you relax and create some distance from the issues so that you can approach them with a calm mind when you're again ready to do so.

The Chicken Soup for the Soul books have been inspirational for me. Tough Times, Tough People is one. I think Unsinkable Soul is the stronger one, but I can't find it right now.

Some of the stories are so compelling, so emotional, and so inspirational that I'm reminded not only how fortunate I am, but also how to create distance and perspective when times are troubling.

That distance can offer new insights, new analysis, and sometimes new solutions. But if it just provides relaxation, to me that's a major benefit.

I understand this is a very difficult and painful situation, not only for you but your husband, daughters, and grandchildren too. After years of watching my mother allowing one of her children to be rude and hurtful to others (we were suppose to understand this brother was under extra strain or having a difficult time, etc.), I decided to walk a different path in my home. My home is a "safe and respectful" zone; that means everyone treats everyone else there with kindness and respect. If someone is rude, he/she is _immediately_ called on it and asked to apologize. No apology? Then there's the door, come back when you're ready to apologize and treat others well. Although not completely accurate, I believe there is some truth in the idea "you teach people how to treat you".

There are of course risks to my method and painful incidents to endure. One brother is estranged - after decades of being "understanding" and teaching him he was allowed to be as rude and insulting as he wished, the final issue was the care of our parents. My other brother and I are completed estranged from this one sibling with some mental/emotional issues and probably always will be. One nephew (EB's son) decided to dress me down during Sunday dinner in my home over my petition for guardianship of my father. I told him he was entitled to his opinion but he wasn't entitled address me with rude language and tone, especially in my home. I didn't see his family for several months, but he decided to apologize and restart visits when I continued my life without him or his family, including inviting other extended family members to join us for Sunday dinner and holiday dinners. The door is always open, but I continue to require good manners. I will say I find gatherings are better without the constant strain of wondering when a disagreeable person is going to do or say something that disrupts the enjoyable environment for everyone.

Your YD apparently has some self-esteem and emotional problems. I suspect she is not as happy with her marriage and family as she appears or maybe even believes she should be. Instead of taking an adult world view it appears to me she has decided to blame you for all the difficulties and unhappiness she has encountered in life. There's very little you can do to change YD's painful view of herself. She needs counseling to develop coping skills and accept "unfair" things (like her health issues) happened to most people at some point in their lives. She may have been more impacted than most, but she has also been less impacted than many. You can only make it clear you love her for herself and not because she's as pretty or has as much book smarts as her sibling. God gives each person a different and unique set of gifts. Some people are book smart and some are creative. Some gifts are more valued in the secular world than others. Some gifts support better building friendships or family relationships. Be careful she doesn't feel you like/love her children more than you do her. I have known people to be jealous of their own children.

I will pray you find a path that heals it's wounds and brings your family closer. With great reluctance, I found in my own family that sometimes you can love someone dearly but still not be able to maintain a stable or close relationship with them. It's not the "fault" of anyone, it just the cards life has dealt. Sometimes we have to give up on the relationship we want and learn to embrace the relationship we have, turning an open wound into a scar. There's still some pain there, but not as much as an ongoing bleeding sore.

Margaret, I understand WHY you talked to OD about YD, but I have to agree with Glad, it's never a good thing to do. Sets up the good kid/ bad kid dynamic, among other things, and it will get back to YD, and make things worse.

I went through a phase where I adored my in-laws, compared them unfavorably to my parents, probably tried to embarrass my parents.

It have everything to do with me, selfish, maladjusted, deeply unhappy brat that I was. On the surface, my life looked good but it was very flawed. Going to therapy with my parent wouldn't have helped.

I would certainly invite visits with grandchildren, but I might try to keep them in public places. If yd starts to act out, I would end the visit as soon as reasonably possible (given the grandchildren) and without acrimony.

I would leave an open door (more often a phone line) and let her know that you are happy to listen. You can't undo the past and whatever mistakes you made (we all make mistakes as parents!) came from a place of love and imperfect understanding.

One of the things most of us work out in therapy is that our parents did the best they knew how (I'm leaving out the narcissists and abusers). You learn to find the good lessons and memories and learn from the mistakes.

One more thing. I find with my own kids, that if we are discussing my shortcomings as a parent, it sometimes helps to put what happened in the context of what was going on: ("that happened when I had just found out I might have cancer and I was so distraught"), apologize and move on. Don't defend your actions which have clearly resulted in a wounding experience for your child, even if that action was taken out of love.

Do not, ever, talk to one child about another. Family therapy with YD would be a better idea.

OD’s son is 5, YD’s son and daughter 7 to 10. YD looked like DH1, but actually quareled with him before death. YD’s children cried because OD and son took a call from me in the car with YD’s children as passengers. Thank you for the hugs, and I am looking for any way out of my brain’s round and round.

Margaret, ((((hugs))))). This all sounds so distressing!

A couple of questions.

How old are all the grandkids?
Can you explain a bit more why yd's children were crying?
Did YD have a good relationship with her dad? ( I see that he has passed away).