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She has lived there 4 years. I haven't gone to anyone about this yet until I get more ideas since it is month to month, maybe they would evict her over this? It wasn't done in writing, by the way. Would an ombudsman be a good idea, a lawyer or ???
Is there a reason she did not get vaccinated? Frankly I'm 76 and I prefer to be around people who are vaccinated. I think it is considerate of others to refrain from social events if you are not vaccinated.
I am so sorry your mom is being shut out because she does not want to take the shot. It's not right and what is happening around the world in regards to this is unconscionable. The CDC has even saud the shot does not stop a person from getting covid and based on news articles it also does not stop hospitalization either or death. That the rates are the same on average whether you have the shot or not. Yet we have public insanity in regards to this and the collusion from the media and big tech to spin one narrative about this. You have a less than 2% chance of dying from covid but a larger chance of dying because of the incorrect covid treatments that many hospitals have adopted.
Not to mention that they are killing people by giving them the vax without checking for antibodies and then their own immunity response kills them.
Oh, and the intervention to stop effective treatments.
I am still just gobsmacked that people are freaking out and heart disease still kills more than 880k annually in the USA alone. Don't see any concern about that. But then again it wouldn't create the same tyranny this man made virus has. And it hasn't even killed 880k in two years. Hmmm? Wonder how much money is being kicked back from the multi billions we as taxpayers are paying big pharma?
Thank goodness many decades ago we didn't have this type of thinking regarding small pox and polio, otherwise we would still be dealing with those dreadful diseases. Everyone back then rolled up their sleeve for the cause.
Isn't that the truth??? I remember there was a bit of discussion in my family about the polio vaccine (we are African Americans as and you probably know the past relationship with the medical profession has not been good) but........................ when it was time to get that shot.. we did it .
The Skilled nursing home I’m in requires vaccination unless you have a letter from your doctor. The Health Dept came around to my uncle’s nursing home and gave the shots. I signed for him to get the shot. Yes people do still get Covid but the rates for death and Hospitalizations are much lower. Vaccination is most likely the only way to control the virus.
My daughter has worked rehab/NHs for years and she feels making people stay in their rooms is illegal. These people are not patients, they are residents paying to live in these facilities. The facility is their home and as such they should be allowed out of their rooms. Maybe not congregating for dinner or in a common area but need to be allowed to walk the halls, go out into the garden or sit on the porch. All as long as they wear a mask and distance themselves.
I did not get my vaccine until I saw what type of reactions people got. My BIL is a Dr. of Immunology and he didn't get his until he researched. When he got his, we got ours. But no one ever said the vaccine would be a cure. No one knew how it was going to effect the immune system. Now they are saying a booster is needed especially for those who have autoimmune problems. Just like the Flu shot, there are no guarantees that you won't contract COVID. If you contract, you spread. They hope that if you do, you won't end up hospitalized. I have heard of people still contracting it after being vaccinated. Is it false info, I don't know. I think COVID is here to stay, like the flu. We can't continue making people quarantine forever.
Since I have been vaccinated, I don't wear a mask. I carry one with me and if asked to wear it I do. I don't shop or eat in crowded places. If I need to, then I wear a mask. I still social distance. I respect others opinions because who is to say I am right and they are wrong. If I was somewhere and another person asked me to wear a mask, I probably would because it makes them feel safe. Its so sad seeing people act the way they do. We should be coming together instead this pandemic has ripped us apart.
She spends all of her time in a group setting, like a college dorm, or a business. They have the right to make the rules, so get her the shot, or find somewhere else for her to live that doesn't require it. (Good luck with that.)
There is zero legal precedent for you to stand on to demand they change the rules for Mom, so don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
Get the shot. My mother had Covid in January, and it destroyed her circulatory system. It didn't kill her, but she had huge open wounds on her legs for the rest of her life. Dying is not necessarily the worst thing to happen from Covid -- sometimes the after effects are pretty horrible, too. I can't believe you'd risk that.
LP, I seriously doubt if any attorney would even consider getting involved in a situation like this. At some point, some ambulance chasing law firms might develop what it considers grounds for a class action suit, but that's not something on which I would rely.
Like others, I have questions as to the validity of the demands and edicts being issued from those allegedly at the top of government, not necessarily in terms of legal basis but b/c the information over time has been questionable, and also b/c the pandemic is a smoldering political football.
However, I did get vaccinated and will get the booster, b/c at my age I don't want to take any chances, also b/c it's obvious that certain sections of the population have behaved irresponsibly and w/o concern for the rest of us. But I didn't get vaccinated right away; I did a lot of research, especially on side effects of each vaccine, before I made my decision.
And BTW, no way would I get anything from Johnson & Johnson after learning about its attitude on asbestos in talcum powder.
FreqFlyer makes a good point about population cooperation. The political environment has changed, there's so much friction at many levels, and the kind of team spirit that has existed periodically and at critical times throughout our history is under assault.
Back to the basic issue: is there some reason why your mother won't get vaccinated?
If there is a medical reason for your mother not to have the vaccine, or arguably if she just feels strongly about it; and if she is happy to be regularly tested and to test on the morning of the event she wants to attend; then with all due respect to the various authorities I would be inclined to support your mother in thinking that this outright ban on her attendance is unreasonable even if not illegal.
I'd be interested to learn what records the ALF is keeping on its staff's vaccinations, too. If you were feeling mischievous you might like to ask them.
That said, I personally am a strict complier - I've just had my six-month booster jab with not a ghost of an ill-effect, I still wear a mask in all public venues and full PPE at clients' homes, and if the rules said we all had to stuff a pickled onion in our left ear to be on the safe side I'd probably keep a straight face and go right ahead. In a way it isn't about medical or statistical certainties, it's about good manners and the social contract.
What is your mother's main objection (apart from a disinclination to be pushed around, which I can fully understand but don't agree it's worth the hassle)?
People are reading the data on vaccinated people dying at higher rates than un-vaxxed. They are extrapolating the data incorrectly!
I just spent some time reading articles and comments from virologists and immunology specialists. And talking to Dr. Joe, my SIL.
NOT ONE person said the vaccine was the 'savior' of the people, but a really good way to do what vaccines DO: create immunity, esp herd immunity, which is what we need.
As the population is more and more vaccinated, people are still catching COVID, that's a known factor in diseases. Some vaccinated people will get sick. B/C there are more vaxxed people dying, but that's b/c there's MORE VAXXED people than, say a year ago.
I'm old enough to remember polio & smallpox. We didn't say a word, just rolled up our sleeves or ate the little sugar cube. EVERYBODY did it. I do not remember my folks having to sign anything to give the school permission to vaccinate me.
Whooping cough is making a comeback. I have 14 grandkids and their parents all asked my DH and I to get boosters for that. We did so, happily.
I am fully vaxxed, plus a booster. Yes, it made me hella sick, but that just means I got a good immunity to it.
I respect anyone's right to not be vaccinated. But I won't hang out with you.
Dr SIL's own parents refuse to be vaccinated. Even now after they went through COVID and his mom should have been in the hospital. He will not allow them around his kiddoes AT ALL. Their loss, as they are now not getting the jab to show their son they can't be bossed. SMH
And yes, he's lost patients to covid. In his case, not one of them was vaccinated. I'm not making any point except that he said in his hospital, not one patient in the ICU had been vaxxed, as of Saturday.
Personally, I can't take another winter being locked indoors and living in fear. We take precautions, we are careful and we got vaccinated. Our choice.
I hate the fear that pervades. These vaccines were built upon previously created vaccines--they have been as researched as they could be. All medical science stands on the shoulders of previous studies--that's why they were able to get workable vaccines out so fast.
Midkid58, I had similar afterward affects with the Booster like I did with the 2nd shot, and like you, I knew my body was working. Heck, it's better than getting the virus itself.
Woooohoooo, that Booster gave me an uplifting feeling. Like it was freedom to go places with very little worry. Yes, I too, also have my mask ready if it needs to be worn.
When my mother was in a skilled nursing facility for rehab, they forced her to get the vaccine, against her wishes. Then they wouldn't let anybody leave their rooms, always claiming that a staff member tested positive. I found out that was a lie by looking at the data, they just didn't want to let people leave their rooms. The data was found here - you can look up individual nursing homes & see COVID data.(As a side-note, this is a 5 star rated Medicare facility)
It’s not illegal, it is being done out of an abundance of caution & in public health interest for her and others. I think a decision has to be made very soon as to moms position on vaxx & her future ability to socialize w other residents. She will face add’l costs ea month in order to continue reside there (she won’t be evicted, it just will likely cost more as she’s not vaxxed). Or you move her into your home to live with you from here on out.
There seem 2 b 3 interrelated things happening right now for HCW and HC facilities related to Covid. Hang in here w me on this…. 1st is that Covid Compliance for workplace is now under OSHA so regulated w fine$ that can b issued. 2nd is if a facility participates in Medicare or Medicaid in any way, in order to continue those payments, staff must be vaxxed unless they have a valid exemption and properly file for that exemption before the mandate goes in effect for your state for compliance. So if a AL or NH or MC has Medicaid beds, staff has to be vaxxed. And if a hospital, clinic, hospice, NH, AL or even IL do any kind of direct patient care services that they bill either of the M&Ms for, they have to now have staff vaxxed. Most AL & IL are private pay, so Medicaid beds / billing are not a factor. BUT MediCARE IS…. congregate living places, like IL and AL, will do annual on the premises flu shots, shingles and pneumonia shots AND do regular BP and wellness checks for their residents and it’s maybe the County health Dept health care worker (HCW) who does these or maybe Walgreens/ CVS sends out a team or it’s the RN at the IL or AL who does these. Whatever the case, MediCARE gets billed for these as everyone is over 65 and 99.9% on MediCARE. For IL, ALs, this is a good thing as they cannot afford to private pay a HCW or a clinic to come out an do flu & shingles shots, blood pressure checks, etc. But as they do this, they fall into having to have staff vaxxed for compliance as they are using Medicare $ to pay for a program at this location.
For part 3, for residents in facilities, what is happening is facilities have the data as to the Covid costs from 2020. And they can use that to require residents who refuse to vaxx to have to pay for additional fees or do additional things to remain there unvaxxed. So mom could face having to get weekly or bimonthly antigen &/or PCR testing done. There is now a whole cottage industry of Covid compliance officers who come on-site to routinely do testing at businesses. Insurance isn’t going to pay for this, it’s private pay as its proactive. Might be $ 500 - 1500 mo. It’s not discriminatory as it’s on the behalf of public health & public interest via OSHA workplace regulations. She can also be required to mask and wear disposable gloves anytime she leaves her room. Your mom will become a social pariah. Do you really want this for her?
If she could have a valid exemption, you need to get on having that done ASAP. But gotta tell you, if she did not file ADA medical exemption to flu, pneumonia or shingles vaccine b 4, or has something like Guillian-Barre or allergic reaction in her chart already, filing exemption now for Covid vaxx won’t fly. Religious exemption also have to show some sort of history of prior exemptions or decline of services on religious basis in the past.
Realize that should she become +, she will be transferred to a hospital. Will be no “in her room care” at all. AL does not have to hold her room or apt for her beyond end of that paid month, should she become hospitalized.
She has choices: become vaxxed; do &/or pay whatever actions needed to remain an unvaxxed resident at this facility; or move out. None of this is discriminatory, it’s similar to increased costs for health & life insurance and compliance requirements (like outside only) for smokers.
OP: In my mother's Memory Care ALF, everyone is vaxxed; staff & residents alike. Since they continue to test, positive results continue to show up (as will happen), and every few weeks, I get an email about an 'outbreak' which isn't an outbreak at all since nobody is sick, just testing positive (2 people testing positive constitutes an 'outbreak' at mom's place!) So they limit visits and everything else based on positive test results which can even be false positives, since no symptoms are present.
That said, a private AL can set down any rules they'd like. They can choose to evict your mother if they so desire, unfortunately, if she decides not to get the jabs. A lawyer or the ombudsman has no voice in their decision, so you are at their mercy as to what activities they choose to limit her to. Hopefully, the AL will stop the nonsense one of these days soon, but for now, they're using punitive measures (as are many other businesses) for those who chose not to be vaxxed.
As you can see by my first paragraph, there's no sense to anything going on right now. Vaxxed or unvaxxed, the virus is now endemic in our world and here to stay. The long term care facilities will ultimately have to decide how they are going to live with that fact moving forward, as will the rest of the human population. Punishing people who choose not to get vaxxed, or cannot get vaxxed for medical reasons, isn't going to change the fact that this virus is with us to stay and nobody is immune to it. Nobody; vaxxed or unvaxxed.
I hope everything works out with your mom's situation.
Pcr tests depending on the cycle run are not a reliable test for covid. This is the reason the CDC is stopping this test by the end of the year. No more covid tests is a better plan in my opinion.
Let's not forget, if someone gets tested for Covid, the results are only good for the day of the testing. Therefore, places would need to test daily to get accurate results.
One can test negative on Monday but by Wednesday have covid but doesn't know it because in this case there are no symptoms. Next Monday a test is done and it is positive, and that resident is quarantined. But it's too late, the domino effect already happened last week, other residents got the virus from that one person. Visitors got the virus and took it home with them. A child in the household got the virus and past it along to a playmate, who in turned brought it home and the child's grandparents got it, were hospitalized and passed. And the child may have had a mild case but developed long-haul issues.
Again the shot does not prevent anyone from getting covid. Ask need help with mom about that. So with your logic both the vaxced and unvaxxed should get tested daily.
For eye opening, read up on thecovidblog dot com It reports on many deaths with names and pictures, some very well known people (so they are real). The common factor: vaccines.
Heck, just read the CDC, WHO and NIH to get the information that the MSM is not reporting.
Fear does pretty awful things to people's ability to think beyond what the news tells them and if you disagree or have a differing opinion you get shut down, just like this post will be.
There are just 4 anti-vaxxers on this thread, saying the same questionable stuff over and over again. We don’t need to hear it any more. By the way, I’m proud to be one of the last locals with smallpox vaccination scars! At least these ones now don't leave scars.
Nonsense. Funny you don't have to show proof of vaccination to get a job. But now you have to show proof of this one particular shot to keep your job. What medical intervention will they require you to have next to keep or get a job?
Facilities are not allowed under federal law to require your loved one to get the vaccination. I am sure they can restrict participation to activities or events though. That out of the way… Unless there is a valid medical reason that she has not had the vaccine not doing so places her at higher risk of getting sick, it places other residents and staff at a higher risk of getting sick. If there is a valid medical reason she has not received the vaccine I would advocate for her and following proper precautions “social distancing” this may mean she sits alone or with others not vaccinated. And PROPERLY wearing an approved mask. She could participate in some of the activities
Here are just a FEW deaths and injuries from the vaccines reported in the month of September. I just listed those that you can look up and verify. Go read thecovidblog dot com and you will see a lot more.
Karen Croake Heisler: 67-year-old former Notre Dame professor says “d*** the unvaccinated,” dead 12 days after third Pfizer mRNA injection September 22, 2021
Bevan Costello: 65-year-old Australian indigenous elder receives second Pfizer mRNA injection during televised event, dead six days later September 29, 2021
Willie Garson: “Sex and the City” actor calls non-vaxxed people “ignorant morons,” dead five months after potential Pfizer mRNA-induced cancer September 29, 2021
Felicity Jackson: 29-year-old British model suffering continual convulsions, seizures after second Pfizer mRNA injection October 1, 2021
Francis Perron: 25-year-old University of Ottawa football player dies shortly after football game, mandatory “vaccines” required at the school September 22, 2021
Leah Taylor: 22-year-old Iowa doctorate student and fitness promoter hospitalized with myocarditis after coerced Pfizer mRNA injection, future uncertain September 8, 2021
Oscar De La Hoya: former boxing champion latest “fully-vaccinated” athlete to miss events, blame COVID-19 for being hospitalized September 8, 2021
Denham Hitchcock: Australian journalist hospitalized with pericarditis 25 days after Pfizer mRNA injection, insinuates AstraZeneca is safer September 1, 2021
Vinny Curry: career likely over for New York Jets (NFL) defensive end after post-injection blood clots, “rare blood disorder” September 1, 2021
Where is the scientific study of these deaths? Non-partisan verification of these anecdotes? Do we know the medical history of these people? Autopsy reports? Etc. I had a booster shot 2 days ago - if I die from a heart attack tomorrow does that mean it was caused by the shot? Anecdotes are simply not the basis of scientific pronouncements. Research is needed to verify claims. And keep in mind that vaccines are not a guarantee - precious few guarantees in this imperfect world. You are balancing possible risks. I believe the vaccine is basically beneficial on the whole and we are facing a pandemic.
It would realllly be nice if people could leave the covid vax debate out of these conversations. Over and over again. Ugh.
Please respect people's right to choose.
It is obvious that OP supports mom's right to not put something in her body that she does not want. She's not asking if she should push her mom to get jabbed. She's asking something entirely different. If you don't want to answer her question, you could always move on to another post instead of judging her and giving unsolicited advice.
LP1955 - I would ask for their policy in writing. Maybe there is a work around. Many workplaces have a "get jabbed OR do weekly testing". Maybe something like that might be an option. Or wearing a mask or social distancing or something? I'm not sure that any of these ideas will be palatable to your mom or acceptable.
It is one thing to say that mom should be able to choose what she wants to do about vaccines. Quite another to say that others cannot issue consequences as a result of their rights to make choices regarding risk. Freedom to choose does not mean freedom from consequences of choices made.
Please reference Dr. Greg Pollard of the Mayo Clinic's excellent weekly updates about covid-19. Dr. Pollard distinguishes between what we "know" from studies and what we believe or want to believe is happening.
What we know in East Tennessee is the non-vaccinated are filling our hospitals and ICUs; they need ventilators too. The numbers are at the highest point since covid hit; including the numbers of people dying. Approximately 25% of new cases are among (unvaccinated) children now and some of them have spent weeks in ICU and some have died too. There have been a very few deaths among the vaccinated, but they have been people who had very bad health and comorbidities (for example my cousin's 84-year-old FIL had an organ transplant and heart issues); over 98% of the hospitalizations and deaths are among the unvaccinated. Even if you are vaccinated and get the virus, you have a milder case of it (usually not even requiring hospitalization) and you are less likely to spread it because you have less of a "viral load". There was recently a discussion about the fear the "ration" policy our hospital will implement when there are not enough ventilators and ICU beds to go around will "discriminate" against the unvaccinated... my part in the discussion was to point out that by our current numbers the people being rationed care will be overwhelming the unvaccinated so they do not need to be concerned about being "discriminated" against by people; the virus will have already done that.
An unvaccinated child in our family has had covid-19, apparently contacted at school, and survived, With extra ventilation in the house, no one else unvaccinated in the household got sick; thank God the older kids were vaccinated! Right now, my unvaccinated 67-year-old former SIL is in the ICU, fighting for her life. She felt ill on one day, tested positive the next, and on day three stopped communicating. When her nieces got to her landlord to open her apartment, she was non-responsive on her bed, lying in her own vomit,
The reasonable worst-case scenario for the nonvaccinated is death; the reasonable worst-case scenario for the vaccinated is a mild disease and life. I do not support a federal mandate on vaccination. I do support vaccination mandates by private companies on their employees in high-risk jobs, like bus drivers and healthcare workers.
I personally believe unless there is a medical reason you cannot be vaccinated, you have questionable "executive/decision skills" if you do not get vaccinated, for yourself and for everyone you come into contact with. Follow the science and ignore the politics.
TN, you understand that the definition of unvaxxed is anyone that has not had any shots, anyone with 1 shot and anyone that is within 14 days of receiving their 2nd shot.
That is why the numbers don't make sense, criteria is being changed to meet the agenda.
This should not be about politics, it should be about informed consent and there in lies the majority of the problems.
When the information is being manipulated to meet whatever agenda is going on then distrust is a certain outcome.
I have read CDC, WHO, NIH and alternative medicine websites and I don't know how any of the numbers justify what has and is going down.
Health care is in a crisis in my city because healthcare workers refuse to take the jab and our facilities are hugely understaffed because of this. These are the same workers that worked diligently before any shot existed, why are they now being pushed out?
To much doesn't make sense when you look at the entire information, not just what one source or MSM publishes.
I’m sorry but this is a probably a simple contract dispute.
In the AL contract there is usually a section that will say the AL has the right to require certain vaccinations and that the AL shall choose which vaccinations. If this is the case then your mom may be in breach of contract. The AL may choose to enforce the contract or terminate it (as permitted by law).
Your mom is not incarcerated. She has not been kidnapped. She may leave anytime she, or her guardian, wants.
You say the AL is her home and she should be free to do as she wishes as if she were home. But you are wrong. It’s a business. Your mom is a customer. She pays to be there just like the other customers. If there are rules she is contractually obligated to follow and does not want to follow those rules then she must find another business to live at.
Simple analogy: Here it’s common for both children and adults to go barefoot for most of the year. Many businesses have a ‘no shoes no service’ policy, usually because of potential injury liability (eg in our local recycling Tip Shop). Some people reckon it’s discriminatory, because it’s poorer people who don’t bother with footwear. Stiff – those are the rules. The law is irrelevant and the service providers make the rules. ALs are also businesses that can choose their own rules, and argument is a waste of time. This is only my second post, Isthisreallyreal, I’m sorry to rub salt in the wound.
Not wearing is not the same as being forcar to inject something into your body that has the potential to kill you or give you a debilitating side effect. Ask Eric Clapton about it. There is also a pro tennis player that has had serious sude effects and will probably never play tennis again.
Margaret, the law is certainly not irrelevant. I assume this is also true in Australia? - that if you provide a commercial service you may not refuse it to people on the grounds of their gender, race, nationality, sexual orientation or any of the other protected characteristics (the list seems to grow weekly, no doubt footwear use will come into it eventually. I know Goths and Emos are already included).
Besides, let's look it in the face - liability insurance my eye, they don't want oiks or any other of those "poorer people" disfiguring their premises, though I don't particularly want to think through why that might be the case at the Tip Shop. Too depressing.
As far as withholding services or excluding access for people without proof of full vaccination goes, I think we're rushing cheerfully into a quagmire of unfathomable depths. Fun times ahead for lawyers!
People forget that full vaccination will only be considered if you have every single required booster. It will never end. If people are comfortable being test subjects for big pharma that's their choice but it should not be coerced through exclusion from services and employment. Etc. You see on TV all the time lawsuits for FDA approved drugs that have caused serious illness or death. Yet these shots are already causing serious side effects and death in people and the result is not to pull the shot but to make mandates forcing people to get the shot. You have to wonder what is really going on here.
Why do they want every single man, woman and child on this planet to get this shot for a virus that has a survivability rate of over 98% and is being diagnosed by a test that depending on the cycle threshold will show false positives.
Ask Harvard University which has a 98% plus shot compliance for staff and students why they shut down in person classes because of positive cases of covid. Did you hear this on your regular news outlet's. Or the other university that showed an outbreak of cases but found out all but 3 or 4 cases were actually false positives because of this faulty test that people don't understand can and is being manipulated.
In 2020 at the height of this pandemic NY converted the Javitz Center into a make shift hopital and brought that ship in to also be used. Both places went un used. Same with the majority of the ventilators the governor demanded.
In Missouri they set up triage tents outside the hospital where i live for all the covid cases. It was never used. On the news they are talking about a nursing shortage saying it's because the nurses are burnt out. But we know it's because many dont want the shot. Why? What do these nurses know that is not being reported?
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By whom?
Get her the vaccine if she wants to attend. Public safety has to come first.
Oh, and the intervention to stop effective treatments.
I am still just gobsmacked that people are freaking out and heart disease still kills more than 880k annually in the USA alone. Don't see any concern about that. But then again it wouldn't create the same tyranny this man made virus has. And it hasn't even killed 880k in two years. Hmmm? Wonder how much money is being kicked back from the multi billions we as taxpayers are paying big pharma?
Criminal!
I did not get my vaccine until I saw what type of reactions people got. My BIL is a Dr. of Immunology and he didn't get his until he researched. When he got his, we got ours. But no one ever said the vaccine would be a cure. No one knew how it was going to effect the immune system. Now they are saying a booster is needed especially for those who have autoimmune problems. Just like the Flu shot, there are no guarantees that you won't contract COVID. If you contract, you spread. They hope that if you do, you won't end up hospitalized. I have heard of people still contracting it after being vaccinated. Is it false info, I don't know. I think COVID is here to stay, like the flu. We can't continue making people quarantine forever.
Since I have been vaccinated, I don't wear a mask. I carry one with me and if asked to wear it I do. I don't shop or eat in crowded places. If I need to, then I wear a mask. I still social distance. I respect others opinions because who is to say I am right and they are wrong. If I was somewhere and another person asked me to wear a mask, I probably would because it makes them feel safe.
Its so sad seeing people act the way they do. We should be coming together instead this pandemic has ripped us apart.
They have the right to make the rules, so get her the shot, or find somewhere else for her to live that doesn't require it. (Good luck with that.)
There is zero legal precedent for you to stand on to demand they change the rules for Mom, so don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
Get the shot. My mother had Covid in January, and it destroyed her circulatory system. It didn't kill her, but she had huge open wounds on her legs for the rest of her life. Dying is not necessarily the worst thing to happen from Covid -- sometimes the after effects are pretty horrible, too. I can't believe you'd risk that.
No guarantee that the vax won't kill you.
It is very much about how healthy you are before you get the shot or virus.
I am sorry that your mom suffered in her last days.
Like others, I have questions as to the validity of the demands and edicts being issued from those allegedly at the top of government, not necessarily in terms of legal basis but b/c the information over time has been questionable, and also b/c the pandemic is a smoldering political football.
However, I did get vaccinated and will get the booster, b/c at my age I don't want to take any chances, also b/c it's obvious that certain sections of the population have behaved irresponsibly and w/o concern for the rest of us. But I didn't get vaccinated right away; I did a lot of research, especially on side effects of each vaccine, before I made my decision.
And BTW, no way would I get anything from Johnson & Johnson after learning about its attitude on asbestos in talcum powder.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/
FreqFlyer makes a good point about population cooperation. The political environment has changed, there's so much friction at many levels, and the kind of team spirit that has existed periodically and at critical times throughout our history is under assault.
Back to the basic issue: is there some reason why your mother won't get vaccinated?
I'd be interested to learn what records the ALF is keeping on its staff's vaccinations, too. If you were feeling mischievous you might like to ask them.
That said, I personally am a strict complier - I've just had my six-month booster jab with not a ghost of an ill-effect, I still wear a mask in all public venues and full PPE at clients' homes, and if the rules said we all had to stuff a pickled onion in our left ear to be on the safe side I'd probably keep a straight face and go right ahead. In a way it isn't about medical or statistical certainties, it's about good manners and the social contract.
What is your mother's main objection (apart from a disinclination to be pushed around, which I can fully understand but don't agree it's worth the hassle)?
I just spent some time reading articles and comments from virologists and immunology specialists. And talking to Dr. Joe, my SIL.
NOT ONE person said the vaccine was the 'savior' of the people, but a really good way to do what vaccines DO: create immunity, esp herd immunity, which is what we need.
As the population is more and more vaccinated, people are still catching COVID, that's a known factor in diseases. Some vaccinated people will get sick. B/C there are more vaxxed people dying, but that's b/c there's MORE VAXXED people than, say a year ago.
I'm old enough to remember polio & smallpox. We didn't say a word, just rolled up our sleeves or ate the little sugar cube. EVERYBODY did it. I do not remember my folks having to sign anything to give the school permission to vaccinate me.
Whooping cough is making a comeback. I have 14 grandkids and their parents all asked my DH and I to get boosters for that. We did so, happily.
I am fully vaxxed, plus a booster. Yes, it made me hella sick, but that just means I got a good immunity to it.
I respect anyone's right to not be vaccinated. But I won't hang out with you.
Dr SIL's own parents refuse to be vaccinated. Even now after they went through COVID and his mom should have been in the hospital. He will not allow them around his kiddoes AT ALL. Their loss, as they are now not getting the jab to show their son they can't be bossed. SMH
And yes, he's lost patients to covid. In his case, not one of them was vaccinated. I'm not making any point except that he said in his hospital, not one patient in the ICU had been vaxxed, as of Saturday.
Personally, I can't take another winter being locked indoors and living in fear. We take precautions, we are careful and we got vaccinated. Our choice.
I hate the fear that pervades. These vaccines were built upon previously created vaccines--they have been as researched as they could be. All medical science stands on the shoulders of previous studies--that's why they were able to get workable vaccines out so fast.
I'm personally so grateful for them.
Woooohoooo, that Booster gave me an uplifting feeling. Like it was freedom to go places with very little worry. Yes, I too, also have my mask ready if it needs to be worn.
https://data.cms.gov/covid-19/covid-19-nursing-home-data
If she tests negative, there is no reason to keep her isolated. Ask for a copy of their written COVID protocol.
I think a decision has to be made very soon as to moms position on vaxx & her future ability to socialize w other residents. She will face add’l costs ea month in order to continue reside there (she won’t be evicted, it just will likely cost more as she’s not vaxxed). Or you move her into your home to live with you from here on out.
There seem 2 b 3 interrelated things happening right now for HCW and HC facilities related to Covid.
Hang in here w me on this…. 1st is that Covid Compliance for workplace is now under OSHA so regulated w fine$ that can b issued.
2nd is if a facility participates in Medicare or Medicaid in any way, in order to continue those payments, staff must be vaxxed unless they have a valid exemption and properly file for that exemption before the mandate goes in effect for your state for compliance. So if a AL or NH or MC has Medicaid beds, staff has to be vaxxed. And if a hospital, clinic, hospice, NH, AL or even IL do any kind of direct patient care services that they bill either of the M&Ms for, they have to now have staff vaxxed. Most AL & IL are private pay, so Medicaid beds / billing are not a factor. BUT MediCARE IS…. congregate living places, like IL and AL, will do annual on the premises flu shots, shingles and pneumonia shots AND do regular BP and wellness checks for their residents and it’s maybe the County health Dept health care worker (HCW) who does these or maybe Walgreens/ CVS sends out a team or it’s the RN at the IL or AL who does these. Whatever the case, MediCARE gets billed for these as everyone is over 65 and 99.9% on MediCARE. For IL, ALs, this is a good thing as they cannot afford to private pay a HCW or a clinic to come out an do flu & shingles shots, blood pressure checks, etc. But as they do this, they fall into having to have staff vaxxed for compliance as they are using Medicare $ to pay for a program at this location.
For part 3, for residents in facilities, what is happening is facilities have the data as to the Covid costs from 2020. And they can use that to require residents who refuse to vaxx to have to pay for additional fees or do additional things to remain there unvaxxed. So mom could face having to get weekly or bimonthly antigen &/or PCR testing done. There is now a whole cottage industry of Covid compliance officers who come on-site to routinely do testing at businesses. Insurance isn’t going to pay for this, it’s private pay as its proactive. Might be $ 500 - 1500 mo. It’s not discriminatory as it’s on the behalf of public health & public interest via OSHA workplace regulations. She can also be required to mask and wear disposable gloves anytime she leaves her room. Your mom will become a social pariah. Do you really want this for her?
If she could have a valid exemption, you need to get on having that done ASAP. But gotta tell you, if she did not file ADA medical exemption to flu, pneumonia or shingles vaccine b 4, or has something like Guillian-Barre or allergic reaction in her chart already, filing exemption now for Covid vaxx won’t fly. Religious exemption also have to show some sort of history of prior exemptions or decline of services on religious basis in the past.
Realize that should she become +, she will be transferred to a hospital. Will be no “in her room care” at all. AL does not have to hold her room or apt for her beyond end of that paid month, should she become hospitalized.
She has choices: become vaxxed; do &/or pay whatever actions needed to remain an unvaxxed resident at this facility; or move out. None of this is discriminatory, it’s similar to increased costs for health & life insurance and compliance requirements (like outside only) for smokers.
That said, a private AL can set down any rules they'd like. They can choose to evict your mother if they so desire, unfortunately, if she decides not to get the jabs. A lawyer or the ombudsman has no voice in their decision, so you are at their mercy as to what activities they choose to limit her to. Hopefully, the AL will stop the nonsense one of these days soon, but for now, they're using punitive measures (as are many other businesses) for those who chose not to be vaxxed.
As you can see by my first paragraph, there's no sense to anything going on right now. Vaxxed or unvaxxed, the virus is now endemic in our world and here to stay. The long term care facilities will ultimately have to decide how they are going to live with that fact moving forward, as will the rest of the human population. Punishing people who choose not to get vaxxed, or cannot get vaxxed for medical reasons, isn't going to change the fact that this virus is with us to stay and nobody is immune to it. Nobody; vaxxed or unvaxxed.
I hope everything works out with your mom's situation.
One can test negative on Monday but by Wednesday have covid but doesn't know it because in this case there are no symptoms. Next Monday a test is done and it is positive, and that resident is quarantined. But it's too late, the domino effect already happened last week, other residents got the virus from that one person. Visitors got the virus and took it home with them. A child in the household got the virus and past it along to a playmate, who in turned brought it home and the child's grandparents got it, were hospitalized and passed. And the child may have had a mild case but developed long-haul issues.
Fear does pretty awful things to people's ability to think beyond what the news tells them and if you disagree or have a differing opinion you get shut down, just like this post will be.
Laws no longer matter. Get a lawyer in case they are still concerned about money.
That out of the way…
Unless there is a valid medical reason that she has not had the vaccine not doing so places her at higher risk of getting sick, it places other residents and staff at a higher risk of getting sick.
If there is a valid medical reason she has not received the vaccine I would advocate for her and following proper precautions “social distancing” this may mean she sits alone or with others not vaccinated. And PROPERLY wearing an approved mask. She could participate in some of the activities
Karen Croake Heisler: 67-year-old former Notre Dame professor says “d*** the unvaccinated,” dead 12 days after third Pfizer mRNA injection
September 22, 2021
Bevan Costello: 65-year-old Australian indigenous elder receives second Pfizer mRNA injection during televised event, dead six days later
September 29, 2021
Willie Garson: “Sex and the City” actor calls non-vaxxed people “ignorant morons,” dead five months after potential Pfizer mRNA-induced cancer
September 29, 2021
Felicity Jackson: 29-year-old British model suffering continual convulsions, seizures after second Pfizer mRNA injection
October 1, 2021
Francis Perron: 25-year-old University of Ottawa football player dies shortly after football game, mandatory “vaccines” required at the school
September 22, 2021
Leah Taylor: 22-year-old Iowa doctorate student and fitness promoter hospitalized with myocarditis after coerced Pfizer mRNA injection, future uncertain
September 8, 2021
Oscar De La Hoya: former boxing champion latest “fully-vaccinated” athlete to miss events, blame COVID-19 for being hospitalized
September 8, 2021
Denham Hitchcock: Australian journalist hospitalized with pericarditis 25 days after Pfizer mRNA injection, insinuates AstraZeneca is safer
September 1, 2021
Vinny Curry: career likely over for New York Jets (NFL) defensive end after post-injection blood clots, “rare blood disorder”
September 1, 2021
Please respect people's right to choose.
It is obvious that OP supports mom's right to not put something in her body that she does not want. She's not asking if she should push her mom to get jabbed. She's asking something entirely different. If you don't want to answer her question, you could always move on to another post instead of judging her and giving unsolicited advice.
LP1955 - I would ask for their policy in writing. Maybe there is a work around. Many workplaces have a "get jabbed OR do weekly testing". Maybe something like that might be an option. Or wearing a mask or social distancing or something? I'm not sure that any of these ideas will be palatable to your mom or acceptable.
Good luck dealing with this.
What we know in East Tennessee is the non-vaccinated are filling our hospitals and ICUs; they need ventilators too. The numbers are at the highest point since covid hit; including the numbers of people dying. Approximately 25% of new cases are among (unvaccinated) children now and some of them have spent weeks in ICU and some have died too. There have been a very few deaths among the vaccinated, but they have been people who had very bad health and comorbidities (for example my cousin's 84-year-old FIL had an organ transplant and heart issues); over 98% of the hospitalizations and deaths are among the unvaccinated. Even if you are vaccinated and get the virus, you have a milder case of it (usually not even requiring hospitalization) and you are less likely to spread it because you have less of a "viral load". There was recently a discussion about the fear the "ration" policy our hospital will implement when there are not enough ventilators and ICU beds to go around will "discriminate" against the unvaccinated... my part in the discussion was to point out that by our current numbers the people being rationed care will be overwhelming the unvaccinated so they do not need to be concerned about being "discriminated" against by people; the virus will have already done that.
An unvaccinated child in our family has had covid-19, apparently contacted at school, and survived, With extra ventilation in the house, no one else unvaccinated in the household got sick; thank God the older kids were vaccinated! Right now, my unvaccinated 67-year-old former SIL is in the ICU, fighting for her life. She felt ill on one day, tested positive the next, and on day three stopped communicating. When her nieces got to her landlord to open her apartment, she was non-responsive on her bed, lying in her own vomit,
The reasonable worst-case scenario for the nonvaccinated is death; the reasonable worst-case scenario for the vaccinated is a mild disease and life. I do not support a federal mandate on vaccination. I do support vaccination mandates by private companies on their employees in high-risk jobs, like bus drivers and healthcare workers.
I personally believe unless there is a medical reason you cannot be vaccinated, you have questionable "executive/decision skills" if you do not get vaccinated, for yourself and for everyone you come into contact with. Follow the science and ignore the politics.
That is why the numbers don't make sense, criteria is being changed to meet the agenda.
This should not be about politics, it should be about informed consent and there in lies the majority of the problems.
When the information is being manipulated to meet whatever agenda is going on then distrust is a certain outcome.
I have read CDC, WHO, NIH and alternative medicine websites and I don't know how any of the numbers justify what has and is going down.
Health care is in a crisis in my city because healthcare workers refuse to take the jab and our facilities are hugely understaffed because of this. These are the same workers that worked diligently before any shot existed, why are they now being pushed out?
To much doesn't make sense when you look at the entire information, not just what one source or MSM publishes.
If it smells fishy, it's probably fish.
In the AL contract there is usually a section that will say the AL has the right to require certain vaccinations and that the AL shall choose which vaccinations. If this is the case then your mom may be in breach of contract. The AL may choose to enforce the contract or terminate it (as permitted by law).
Your mom is not incarcerated. She has not been kidnapped. She may leave anytime she, or her guardian, wants.
You say the AL is her home and she should be free to do as she wishes as if she were home. But you are wrong. It’s a business. Your mom is a customer. She pays to be there just like the other customers. If there are rules she is contractually obligated to follow and does not want to follow those rules then she must find another business to live at.
Besides, let's look it in the face - liability insurance my eye, they don't want oiks or any other of those "poorer people" disfiguring their premises, though I don't particularly want to think through why that might be the case at the Tip Shop. Too depressing.
As far as withholding services or excluding access for people without proof of full vaccination goes, I think we're rushing cheerfully into a quagmire of unfathomable depths. Fun times ahead for lawyers!
Why do they want every single man, woman and child on this planet to get this shot for a virus that has a survivability rate of over 98% and is being diagnosed by a test that depending on the cycle threshold will show false positives.
Ask Harvard University which has a 98% plus shot compliance for staff and students why they shut down in person classes because of positive cases of covid. Did you hear this on your regular news outlet's. Or the other university that showed an outbreak of cases but found out all but 3 or 4 cases were actually false positives because of this faulty test that people don't understand can and is being manipulated.
In 2020 at the height of this pandemic NY converted the Javitz Center into a make shift hopital and brought that ship in to also be used. Both places went un used. Same with the majority of the ventilators the governor demanded.
In Missouri they set up triage tents outside the hospital where i live for all the covid cases. It was never used. On the news they are talking about a nursing shortage saying it's because the nurses are burnt out. But we know it's because many dont want the shot. Why? What do these nurses know that is not being reported?