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And sounds like Your mom has the money. If you do decide to ask for compensation, I would ask for the going rate. Don't cut yourself short. People treat us the way we let them. Treat yourself with respect and expect to be treated with respect by asking for the going rate. Anyhow, with long term care insurance, her money will last longer and can pay you the going rate. If she will not give you that much respect, I'd leave.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
I always like reading your notes. I appreciate them very, very much. I need to slow down and think. I’ve had a lot of info in just one week since I first posted. New ideas have been introduced. Without your replies, I would never have stood up to mom and likely would have done what I always do, lay down and play dead, or flee. I needed to hear from convincing folks that I must stand up to her. The narcissism is a new idea to me, and I have researched it. I have, or intend to, follow up on every good bit of advice i’ve received. In the end, I will decide what to do with a clearer. Mind and heart, thanks to many of you. You were exactly what I needed at this time and I couldn’t be more grateful, even for kicks in the butt; NOT, for words of disparagement., or assumptions, or those who wanted to dig beyond the scope of the question/issues.

thanks so much.
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Spart, You say " yes, Mom. This is all about money. If I weren't here, I'd be working, saving money and preparing for MY OWN old age. What part of that don't you understand?"

Manipulators who want something for nothing use that "Oh, so it's all about money" line. Get wise to her selfishness, my dear. She's using you.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
I think if I understood better about manipulators I wouldn’t be where I am today. That’s why it’s important to me to hear your opinions. I think mom is a skilled manipulator. I KNOW she is. I’ve witnessed it. That ‘s the reason I hesitate to label her with the word “narcissist”, as many good people here have labeled her. Many, for sure, without a PhD, tho, many of their comments helped me to stand up to mom. Not sure a diagnosis is necessary, except what came out of that—I need to look out for myself, and, I have failed to do that with my mom. The main thing is, I have benefitted in just one week from comments from people like you. You have no idea—we’ll, maybe you do have. A light in the dark from a voice that is non-judgmental and purely supportive is a blessing, indeed.
thanks, Barb.
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Who is the successor trustee of the Living Trust? Does mom understand that this money can still be used for her care?

I think you are confusing caring for your mom with providing hands on care. You can arrange for her to have the right level of care at home through an agency, paid for by LTC insurance.

There is absolutely NO reason that you should mortgage your future to remain her unpaid servant. This is something that MIGHT be acceptable if you were independently wealth or had a guaranteed source of income, like a substantial pension that you were able to live off of. But you don't.

You're poor. You are going to become a burden on the welfare rolls in your old age so that your wealthy relatives can inherit more wealth. How does that make ANY sense?

There is also lots of grey space in between being a materialist who likes jewels and valuing human relationships and kindness. You can earn a living AND care about others.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
You have been so good to persist in providing helpful questions and info. I value questions and ideas that help me decide how to proceed.

I don’t know the term “successor trustee”. Mom’s step son is called trustee over the living trust. I will ask him. Mom likes to think she is savvy about this. No, she told me yesterday that she can’t touch that money, that the trust is “not hers”, but is for all surviving kids. She very likely doesn’t know, and most likely doesn’t wish to touch it out of respect to her husband. She has never volunteered information to me. It caused me to feel it was private between her and her 2 executors. So, I left it alone. Thought she wanted privacy. But now I need to know.

I have always wondered why my doc sister, who is an astute business woman, never came to my aid, voluntarily. We haven’t been close, and her world-#travels have kept her busy.

I believe you’re right that I am confusing caring for mom with providing hands-on care. I never thought of the distinction, only that I needed to be here to help her stay in her accessible home, with all of her goodies, where she wants to be. (In-home costs are exhorbitant. She would not stay if she had to pay 100k/yr.—she’d be too afraid she’d run out of money.
Her home health insurance only pays for $100/day, with a minimum stay, so that means she might get 3 hrs. ($75.) in the a.m., then pay for the rest, except the $25, for the rest of her daily needs. She’s afraid to be alone at night in case she needs help. Clearly, i’m learning to spell out the facts. AL is cheaper. Still, hard to say what she’d choose, if forced. I want to give her an option. (Again, what SHE wants?). Isn’t that what this is about in many ways?

I don’t want to be a burden on taxpayers. That’s partly why I’m standing up. I am Working! There is value to what I do, and I want to contribute. Mom seems to feel I owe it to her, somehow. Ya know, I’m done with the “why”. I just don’t care about that, anymore.

i’m not Sure about your last paragraph, thinking you may have misunderstood. I’M not the materialist. Mom is. I don’t care much about that except for a little comfort. Mom is the one who needs excessive materials in order to be happy. She always has.

thanksfor sticking with me. K
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Your most recent posts make it sound as though your mom has developed some cognitive decline. Has she been evaluated for that? Is the financial POA that your stepbrother holds one that can be used in case of incapacity?

If mom doesnt understand, then it's your stepbrother you need to be talking to about the financial arrangements
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Slartabart Jun 2019
Barb, in the one looong week since I first posted, amidst all of the often well-intended suggestions that she may be narcissistic, I am wondering if it is signs of increasing dementia. There are definite indicators of mild dementia—especially expressive aphasia. She has word-finding problems and it has worsened since I got here. Of course, that wouldn’t explain her behavior prior to her decline. So, I suspect both are going on.

I have taken notes on your good questions and will find out the answers. My sister, a doctor, holds the medical POA, if that answers anything. Frankly, since she visits only bi-annually, I don’t think she knows more than I do about mom’s current status/decline. How could she? I’m a little miffed she hasn’t participated more in mom’s care.

I intend to to reply to your other notes below.
thanks for your great comments.
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Slart, I understand that you are not a materialist. But there is no law that says you have to be either a materialist OR a kind caring person. What I mean is that you can be kind AND make a decent living.

And I understand that you are working HARD. And you should be being paid for it!
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Slartabart Jun 2019
I understand, Barb, thanks.
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Slart, when the time comes that our elders THINK that they are independent but are not, it's time to kindly say "mom, I can't do this anymore".

Hardest words I ever said and my mom took great umbrage. She too apparently thought I owed her, to come do her bidding, respond to emergencies, no matter what.

I said "no". "I'll lose my job; I will skid out (again) on your icy hill; Brother will have a heart attack trying to get here when you call and say you are ill. Just no more mom. You need to be someplace else".

I don't think it's any kindness to prop up out elders in their false "independence". I think aging in place is lovely until it impinges upon everyone ELSE'S quality of life.

Your mom is STEALING your prime earning years from you. You seem to think that others are going to look out for your interests. They will not. You really need to look out for yourself, starting now.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
Thanks so much for sharing your situation. I’ve learned, it’s one thing in the abstract, quite another to get it out there in direct words between mom & daughter, and, I am flailing. I realize, in the wk. to 10 days since i’ve sought help, here, I have mega info to assimilate. And, others, familiar with my mom’s type of personality, have suggested things. I have learned much from many suggestions and information that resonates as true or, true-enough to investigate.

My sibs, I think, won’t likely get it, because I think they don’t want to. Because if I walk away, they may have to actually do something. They live far away, they are enjoying prosperity and having fun, AND, they have dealt with the mom dilemma all of their lives, too, and have run away from it. They’re not stupid. But I was.

I have been trying to get space from mom while I decide, first, (big deal for me to put me before her), what do I want, stay or go? What I really want is to go, tho it’s not that simple because I care about her no matter how selfish she is. She’s very dependent.

Just this minute mom snagged me as I walked thru and demanded answers to this and that. I said that I need space while I hear what my online support group is contributing. The answers I heard from her were all kinds of manipulations, confabulations, and attempts to get an immediate answer.
I understand wanting answers, but I am not finished finding one. I repeated that I hadn’t yet decided If I would stay, and she looked surprised.
Shes’s upset with me for departing from the way I usually jump to her demands/requests. Won’t do it any longer. If I am ever to get healthy, it’s truly now or never. I don’t know if I can expect her to learn about that. If she does’t, I am aware she may blame me till the end for “walking out on her”, never, ever, seeing the real truth.
So, did that happen for you? How did it play out?
I am floundering in mom’s anger at me right now for not kow-towing. I HAVE to get through this! I don’t want to knock under. Any insights?
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Hey Slartabart, what a difference a week can make.

I am happy that you and mom are talking. My parents are both full blown narcs and they will never own their bad behavior, I can't tell you how many times they respond with "I don't remember doing/saying that." No responsibility, not once in my memory. This is a trait of narcissism and you know what the history has been. So just beware.

She probably has some mental decline, however, this usually just highlights personalities because they loose the ability to be cunning and hide their true selves.

Please trust yourself and your perception, narcs are really, really, really good at making people doubt themselves. Stay aware of that and you will be okay. They also know how to get you nice and comfortable then bam, just when you think things are getting better you are blindsided. Please, trust yourself.

I have no idea what a living trust is, but I can't imagine that her husband left her with minimal income so a fortune could be left to children that don't need it. I would want to see the documents to understand and maybe see an elder law attorney to help you understand how it works. It could be that the stepsons are in control of a irrevocable trust and they are the ones that administer the instructions of the trust. It is pretty common for wealthy families to create what is known as AB trusts upon the death of one spouse, typically this puts 50% of the estate into a trust that doesn't belong to the surviving spouse but will be available to them for their care should they spend all of their money. These are done to protect from lawsuits, a new greedy spouse, or bad choices financially by the spouse or ? But she may be confused about how this is all set up. She should have or have access to the trust documents and you should both go see the attorney at her expense to understand what is what. The last thing you want is to find out that the stepsons get everything and you have cared for her for years and now what.

I can understand not wanting to ask for something that you already know the answer to. I would get a written quote from a couple different agencies for 24/7 care, and then I would sit with her as say this is what it would cost to have outside help come in, I think that 20-25% plus days off every week or 2 with 2 weeks vacation annually where you use the insurance to get someone in to help keep us from getting sick of each others faces, to much of a good thing is still to much. That way you can have a life outside of mom, she can have someone else to talk to or chew on and hopefully it will work.

You should figure out how much it costs you for your needs to be met, insurance, meds, car expenses, clothing allowance, entertainment and such, then being able to put 2 to 300.00 per paycheck into savings, so at least 800.00 monthly for future. This is through a payroll service that ensures you are contributing to your SS and have insurance in case you get injured and ensuring that you have access to unemployment benefits when your situation changes.

I know that things are moving quickly and you have information overload. I just hope that you realize that you are as important as your mom is in all this. You deserve to have your hard work acknowledged by making sure you are being paid a fair wage.

Hugs! It will get sorted out.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
Isthisrealyreal,
you have given me many informed and wise words, and, you have hung in with me. I have made some changes, so now, the real work begins. Maybe the hardest work: implementing the ideas. I have started, but who knows the right way to proceed when she feels you are pulling the rug out from under her? This is a blind-side for her. I can’t just think about me in this, can? Here hearing is impaired and she can barely walk. I do sometimes wonder if she amplifies that in the presence of others.

I wondered if you could share a bit of wisdom and/or experience from when you first had insights, and then how you started setting boundaries with mom. Probably not pretty, because it’s not pretty here, now. She is so used to my care and compliance, so she’s pissed that I don’t spend as much time with her. Now, I hear her calling to arrange alternative care. That’s fine, but i’m not certain of her sophistication in those matters. I could be wrong. She might be more savvy than me.
I told her I have an online group which is helping me make changes, and I need to take some time for me. She doesn’t like that very much. She said she will arrange her own home health care. If she does so, I hope she has the bigger picture in mind. She did say she would NOT arrange for 24/7 care. Well, then why did she say she needed that from me 2 yrs. ago? I gave up my entire life, small as it was, for this? She could have arranged something else, then. She made it sound like she was desperate for my help.
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Maybe I can help a little. My mother has all her intangible and tangible goods in a trust. She can do what ever she wants to do with anything placed in the trust because they are still her assets. Unless she is declared incompetent she has control of all her assets.
If she has a revocable trust anything can be changed fairly easily but if she qualifies and used Medicaid they can try to recoup their expenditures through her estate after she passes. If it is a irrevocable trust it may make it a little harder but not impossible and I believe it would protect her estate from Medicaid.
My mother set up a trust five years ago. She was mad at all of her offspring so she set up the trust and put her lawyer on at financial Power of Attorney (POA) so he can take over paying her bills if she becomes incapacitated and could no longer do so herself. She also named him as executor of her will. She did have both of my brothers as her POA for medical. One of my brothers I could understand because he is in the medical field the other one only comes here twice a year tops.
So now that she is showing early signs of dementia and having some other health issues and I am living here and providing care full time, we are trying to make changes because her lawyer fees would be astronomical with him as POA and executioner and would burn through her savings in one year.
So the meetings continue. We have been working on getting the POA changed so I can write checks for her if ever needed and the executor of the will so we are not paying anymore lawyer bills than necessary. Right now she gives me her bills, I write out the checks, make copies, have her sign the check and then I send them out.
I am here 24/7 and have promised I would do my best to keep her in her home as long as possible. The last two meetings I felt guilty and sort of sad because she may not have anything much of value left other than her house which is not anywhere worth as much as she would have to pay someone. She does get her social security and a lump sum payment in the summer from a land contract. So she is in an income bracket that makes her ineligible for many of the services from council on aging. I understand that even if my mother could afford to pay me the going rate that she would not. I am even having a hard time to get her to pay for her own medications. I have been picking them up and paying for them as I go and eventually have to ask her to reimburse me. She gets upset but I can't keep paying for that kind of stuff. My savings would end up depleted.
I had my sister comment that I get room and board. I guess that should be enough?
So instead of paying me for her care I asked about inheriting her home instead of weekly or monthly compensation. In a little over a years time I would have been able to pay for the house if I charged the going rate. I have been here four and a half. I feel this is fair.
My siblings are not 100% on board with me inheriting the house but they are all unwilling to take on her care (I offered each and everyone of them and it was a definite NO) I have considered sending them all bills with my hours and rate each month for taking care of our mother.
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notrydoyoda Jun 2019
I believe it's possible that if your mom goes on medicaid that the house might go to them to sell. Are you written in her will for the house?
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Did you say "pay you?" who provided her with compensation when she took care you with 24/7 care for all those years, and if you had siblings do the math.
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notrydoyoda Jun 2019
It is not the same bunch of apples. Have you also raised children? If so, then you know the difference.
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Slart you need a therapist who is LCSW, licensed clinical social worker with experience helping those with elderly parents. Do tell them all you have told us. I am glad to hear you are going to get therapy. I like LCSW because they are trained as a social worker and in psychology. Many of them ar cognitive behavioral therapists who deal with the present more than the past unless the past is relevant as being connected to the present.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
Thanks, cmagnum. You are so right. I hope I can find someone who is well-trained and experienced. I have tried therapy off and on in the past and didn’t find good help. The last LCSW I saw seemed to defend motherhood when I began to ask her to help with mother-issues. She seemed like she couldn’t hear what I was there to talk about. It was more about having a fun visit, it seems. Bad experience. But I appreciate your food comments.
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start - I have faced many of the same questions you do.
From an early age I knew something was wrong in our household and that it wasn't me. Of course, as any child/person, I had and have imperfections, but I did not cause the chaos, emit the anger and manipulate as my mother did. From early adulthood I let my mother know that me moving in with her and she moving in with me were not options at any point in the future, I also knew that eventually the caregiving role would fall on me as my sis has some form of personality disorder and narcissism as well. I too faced the struggle of "honour your mother and your father" (and that as thrown at me more than once) even though I did not see my mother as honouring anyone - she was not a good role model. Through much deep examination of scripture, prayer, counseling and reading articles of my faith on that topic, I was freed from the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) of having to follow my mother's lead. I accepted the responsibility of caring for my mother, but at a distance and on my terms. God is my judge, both of how I care for my mother - and - of myself, "Love others as yourself." Over time I learned to detach more and more. She died last December aged 106 in a good NH having been well cared for. At 81 I am finally freed, though reeling at present from another family death - that of my niece, my sister's daughter, who killed herself almost a month ago. I realise it could have been me earlier in my life had some things been different. Dysfunction is the gift that keeps giving.

From my experience, it is my belief that your mother will not, in fact, probably cannot learn and change so that you can have a healthy relationship with her. I married and divorced (2x), had/have children and grandchildren, had a career, and an financially comfortably off. I did what was necessary to care for my mother, but also to care for and protect myself from her and my sister. It comes down to a matter of self preservation. That is what I wish for you..
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Slartabart Jun 2019
Golden, thank you for your insightful reply. I am struggling a lot right now. I found it helpful to hear part of your story and your comments. I liked the anagram:
FOG: fear, obligation, guilt. Useful to me, thank you.

I always lived by the golden rule: do unto others.....etc.
Which is not quite the same rule as you quoted: Love others as yourself—I could never quite get a handle on loving myself, but I sure loved others, mostly better.

I’m so sorry to hear of your niece’s death , esp. after all you have gone thru. What a tragedy. I hope you’re recovering as well as you can. Life is...? I just don’t know. Who ever knows anything, really? But, I think your comments demonstrated a huge effort on your part to reconcile things, at least with your god and the universe. You wrote many words of wisdom, and I am so grateful. I wish you peace, and that is all I seek.

You said your mom was not a good role model, and i’m sorry to hear that. So that was in the 40’s or so? I don’t know much about the times then, except the post-depression behaviors and such. And mom was born in ‘32. She doesn’t disclose much, but she rebelled (very good family) and left her small Indiana town, had 4 kids, and raised us—almost on her own, dad was uninvolved, but she was great, and a role model in many ways. But not in enough ways to prepare 3 daughters for modern times and a son....? Well, those times were in big change.

I wish I had set the boundary of never living with mom. I think both my sister & brother did, but we never spoke about it. I suspect they knew I would do so. Now, I feel like a sap & a fool if they all knew this. I felt I had to. Someone did. Yeah, they knew I would. But I didn’t want to. No one checked with me on that—why didn’t I say that? I felt I had to. Simple as that. Obligation, plus, I love my mom and want her to be ok.

But maybe two years is as good as it gets for 24/7 live-in care provided by me. I suspect I may need permission to let go and say “no”, so I can be released from this. I AM learning how to decide about this on this site. I swear, I’m at the end of my rope with her, yet, I love her and want her happiness. And I don’t want my resentments to get worse. I would like to preserve what mother-daughter relationship is left. My life is ebbing away, too. I doubt I may live as long as she! (truly).
I think I’d rather visit her in AL than to continue much longer as we are (first time I ever said this).

I hide resentments in my efforts to please her, and many folks say she will never “get it” in terms of fairness and treating me well. YOU said it.

Again,I appreciate your reply, your story, and your words of encouragement. Please write again if you wish. I find it so hard to believe mom won’t come around. But, that may be dreaming. As I think about your last words in your reply, I think: yeah, I can’t even dream of a “healthy” relationship with my mom. What would that be like? XXOO
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Word finding difficulties can be a sign that she's had a TIA or stroke; she may have developed Vascular Dementia. Has she ever had a neuro workup? How recently and with what level of expertise (University level neuropsych dept?)

My mother, who appeared to still be cognitively sharp but increasingly needy and anxious was finally dx'ed with Mild Cog. Impairment as a result of a stroke that NONE of us knew she'd had.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
Thanks for that. Only recently, mom disclosed she had had a stroke quite a number of years ago. My sister, the doctor, said mom may have “mild signs of dementia”. Well, mom definately has signs of mild dementia, and they are worsening. But I don’t see
”signs” that anyone but me is paying much attention
to that. My sis/doc isn’t giving us much attention now that I’m here, it seems.
No, we are miles and miles from a neuro center, and mom has asserted that she doesn’t want that kind of care. Well, then, just deal with it, right? Or what? I don’t have lots of help, but I come from a background of physical medicine & rehab, so I dealt with & learned lots about restorative care. But mom doesn’t want to know any longer what is wrong with her, and I ge,t that. But she can’t take most meds for pain, has a lot of pain, and has signed off,also of the pain management specialist she saw for a while. I get it. She has 1 med,
miloxicam (sp?) that she uses occasionally, but refuses to take it “as needed”. Therefore, it’s hard to help with her pain, especially as she decided to become more sedentary, secondary to that. I get it, but since she & I have had this upset, she is up and about 2-3 hrs. more per day, than formerly. What? Why?

You have been so good to help. Thanks.
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Slartabart, I just saw your question, I am replying here because things get lost with the reply button and lots of posters. It has it's good and bad points, so we work around.

Has any caregiver or administrative persons actually showed up in response to her phone calls to get her own in home care? If not, she may not even be talking to anyone. She may be doing this to create fear and compliance in you. We all want to believe that our little old parents are sweet, loving, pure and without a conniving bone in their frail bodies, HA! They have seen more than we have, so they have more tools then we can imagine in their arsenal of manipulation. I think it was Joann, maybe ahmijoy that called her mom a little tyrant. That is probably true for many seniors trying to get their own way, but from what you have said, it definitely fits your mom. Keep this in your mind when dealing with her. No matter how sweet and loving she is still focused on how to get what she wants from you.

Becauce she is use to you dancing attentively to her demands she is going to grouch when you don't. The hardest thing you have to do is remain consistent. You decide what you will and won't do and stick to it. That is the hardest thing to do, because people can wear you down. My mom made it easier for everyone to give her what she wanted then to fight with her. If she is miserable and unhappy and not getting her way, oh heaven help us all, cuz' ain't no one gonna have peace until she gets her way. I used to wonder why no one ever spanked her for behaving so wretchedly, maybe she would have changed. Instead, they caved and when old enough her kids left, her husband left and she has no friends. It is sad to behold, but predictable. I was the one that set boundaries and I am the only one she has to help her. I don't want to, but I have to. She would not have a chance if I didn't. However, I will never live in the same house as her, ever, not an option. I will make sure that her needs are met and she is safe. That is all you can give someone that will devour you for themselves to get what they want. You have a different situation with housing, but I think that the rest is to close for comfort.

I would make lists of what she actually needs from you. What do you have to do to keep her safe. Then, start, as you have already, not giving her what she wants. If she is able to safely get up and get that bowl of ice cream she wants, then you don't. Get the idea?

With my dad I always made sure he had water and healthy snacks while he was with me. He wanted chocolate bars and sugary drinks, being diabetic he wasn't getting any of that from me. If he managed to get it on his own, I never said a word. He knew/knows the consequences and chooses that's on him, not me.

It has taken 2 years to get where you are, it is going to take some time to get out of the habits, for both of you.

Obviously there is always discretion involved with these situations, if she is really sick and you want to cater to her, all good and fine. Maybe on her birthday as well. It's the daily grind that you are focusing on. My dad thought he should sit down and never move when at my house, wouldn't even ask nicely for anything, it was always a demand. What?!? Who does that. I would just pretend I didn't hear him, he would eventually get up to do what ever it was he thought I should step to. Or I would say I am in the middle of something and stay busy with it until he provided his own want.

You will find the nicest way that works for you and your mom. One step at a time, if you stumble, it's okay, tomorrow is a new day to reinforce the boundaries.

She is going to be unhappy with you finding your balance in the relationship with her, expect her to get uglier, she will be pushing around to find what works now. Smile and enforce boundaries. I find it amusing to watch my parents trying to hustle me. They go to some pretty far out places to get their own way. CONT.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
I must say, isthisrealyreal, that you are a godsend to me right now. And so many good people have helped. You offer such helpful info on narcs and baby steps in order to deal with them. How were you able to set boundaries early on with your folks? I tried, too, with mom, but she always fought it (importantly, my older sister was quite like mom and they were tight. Anything mom wanted was good with my sister, and she truly set the mark on that). Sister totally accepted and embraced mom’s behaviors, while I didn’t, but there was no influencing THAT union. Sister has passed away, now. Family dynamics. I was the “lost child” in that model. Never found a real place with mom unless it was to love & serve. She didn’t like my independent thinking and growth, apparently.

I’m still reeling, but many things you say fit, and explain many questions throughout decades. In the past, I thought the “why?” questions might kill me if the guilt and shame didn’t do me in first. Quite a fool, me—too big-hearted.

My mother has a lovely silk coat of charm, humor, talent, energy, and “loving goodness” around her and she wears it well. I don’t wish to take anything away from her. That’s how she lived her life, much is admirable; that’s why so many people love her. But they don’t know about the criticisms, guilt-trips, control, demands, refusals to recognize boundaries, lack of respect for differences, & inability to fathom that her adult children’s lives do not, and should not mirror her life, her values. Increasingly, I understand she has aspects of ignorance—not meant in a demeaning way, only to say she is not as informed about the world & issues as I thought. She has always flown by the seat of her pants in terms of parenting, for instance, & she admitted that not that long ago.

And, if you have Narc/insight into THIS biggie, I would be so grateful:
why, oh why, when my dad was beating this good little girl with the belt, simply for giggling with my sisters when we were supposed to be sleeping, WHY didn’t she PROTECT me (and my brother)tho, not the 2 other sisters)? Our screams of terror were loud.
She didn’t miss hearing that, and it wasn’t just a couple of times. Why? What? Tell me your guesses, regarding a mom-narc. The word sounds like nurse-
shark. (This is me trying to regain my sense of humor).

I have lists. And lists. And lists. They are disorganized. Frantic Floundering, that’s the name of MY dance.

I like your idea of listing what she needs from me, then we can begin to distinguish needs from wants. Your examples of setting boundaries with your parents were extremely helpful and reinforcing, as was your comment regarding the need for a sense of humor. I know I have lost that, and I will work harder to get it back. My isolation in all of this has taken too big of a toll. I am so grateful to have found some help,and I need to find more. And hopefully, some kind of social outlet that is NOT related to eldercare, tho i’ve never been very socially inclined. I’ll find something, but first I need to prioritize it when the dust settles & take better care of myself.

No, isthisrealyreal, no agencies have shown up.
amendment!!
This a.m. mom said she DID call the local area on aging and they suggested a home assessment. Mom said she’d talk to me & get back with them. 2 points for mom. So, we should proceed and see what helpful info they provide, is my thinking. It opens up a dialogue.

I find your replies and help so instructive & supportive.
I wish I could do something for you, too, rather than always asking for help. Do I ask too much? I know I’m vulnerable/needy right now and i’ve never done online support before, so I don’t know if I ask too much. You just say, then so I’ll get it.

I need to decide: can I continue to live here? You said you set a boundary that you would never do that. In my mind, that’s what i’d hoped for, but, as you said, you HAVE to (provide care for mom), remotely. Could I do the same is what I must answer.
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Continued page 2

Try to find the humor in it. I always like to guess what their next move will be. I have to find the humor or I would not be able to cope.

Start making your lists and you will feel empowered.

You got this, even though it feels really bumpy right now, it will get better.

Hugs!
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Start: You're welcome! Good to hear!
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You mentioned your mother is materialistic and narcisstic - horrible combination - and I predict things will get worse at her age and perhaps dementia setting in. I have seen all too often where the children feel "obligated" to take care of their parents. That might be fine and good if there had always been a loving relationship based on mutual needs AND the caretaker is physically and mentally able to do the caretaking - and wants to do it, not because the person "has to do it". I am a firm believer and I say this based on life's experiences. I learned far too late and after many very difficult times that when the behavior and actions of someone else starts to impact you in a negative way or is starting to destroy you mentaly, physically and emotionally, and financially too, then you must make a stand and either put an immediate stop to it - and if that is not possible, you must remove yourself from the equation. No one, no matter be it God or the devil, has the right to do harm to someone else. It is just wrong. You have gone far above in this case and now it is time to look out for you. I think it is horrible that given your circumstances and your caring, that your mother has done nothing for you. I would immediately look into caregivers and get all the facts you can and present them to your mother. If, given your circumstances (and I'd be worried too), she did not cooperate, then I would go ahead with the caregivers or place her into a facility and I would start doing what I could to secure my own future. If you don't do it, no one will do it for you. She has lived her life and you are still here and will need help for yourself. Please don't wait. Get this solved now.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
I just re-read your good & kind note. I read them all again when I need support. What a great site! Most situations as you know, are “complex”—not quick to solve, especially after 2 yrs. of building habits, establishing patterns, etc. yes, I believe with the mild dementia, things are harder. For one thing, she doesn’t reason as astutely as she did, which, frankly, was never all that rational in some ways. She wants what she wants, and right NOW. The immediacy has gotten worse—when I take a minute to think about things, she gets impatient. And that is not ok with me. I like to be careful about what I say because I can’t trust that she’ll get it right.

I truly appreciated your sharing that “when someone else’s behaviors influence you in negative ways...”
Well, when that has happened your entire life, and you don’t recognize it as that, then you keep on maybe just trying to love your way through it. I mean, It is only since I moved in with mom 2 yrs. ago, that I get it now.
Likely, her cognitive filters have declined, such that she doesn’t cover up the manipulations as she used to, so
I see what is going on!

My siblings likely would doubt me, so I guess I won’t say unless they ask, but it is horrible to be alone in this realization and insight! My sibs have put distance between themselves and mom. So maybe they realize more than I think they do. Maybe I am the only fool, but I was loyal and adored my mother! Heavens, I never knew what “normal” was! And that’s why this is so hard. I don’t want more of it. I can’t. I’ll die of it.

You alluded to having experiences and learning far too late...I am so sorry you have that history. You were discreet in trying to help me, maybe, but if you wish to share, I would listen. I wonder if it’s similar? Up to you.
(to send private message click my avatar /icon, then my profile button and click “private message”)perhaps you know, already. But I valued your message to me and hope you are doing ok.
Thanks and love
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Startabart:

You have received excellent advise from so many people here.

Now, all you need do is be proactive and actually act on the advise.

Your mother has profoundly abused you all your life. People here have helped you awaken to that uncomfortable reality. It is not your fault.

Going forward find and surround yourself with people whose eyes sparkle when they see you.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
What a lovely message! It will not be simple to break out of this, but what you say is inspiring. Thanks—I remember that sparkle and want to see it again.
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I think there is more than enough posts, so enough already. Lets move on another subject.
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worriedinCali Jun 2019
thats Not your call to make, it’s not your post. The OP is still actively replying here.
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Slartabart, I read your post and I am swamped today, but I will be back to tell you how I set and enforce boundaries.

The 1st step is to stop trying to be good enough to get something that a narc doesn't have to give and to totally reject what they have made you believe you are or aren't.

How are your lists going?
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Hi slartabart, how are things going? Have you made your lists?
Those are important for your boundaries.

2nd step to setting boundaries, you decide when you will engage, you must be willing to walk away and separate yourself from the situation. No matter what is said or done. You have the conversation when you are ready, not when the other person forces it.
This is really hard because our moms typically know all of our buttons to push to make us react.

You take a lot of power away when you do this, but they don't ever go down without a fight. Beware and expect anything.

My mom will act like she has no clue what I am talking about when I come back and say that I think it is time to address the issue. Then she throws out jabs, innuendos and barbs about the issue trying to get me to get mad, even if I am, she never gets to see it. Narcs get off on throwing their prey off balance. I won't give her the satisfaction and if I do, I will apologize to her for my bad behavior. That takes her power away, me taking responsibility for my actions doesn't let her think it was her doing. I own me and all of my behaviors.

So now you have 2 steps to implement and lists to make. Big steps, all of them.

1st - stop trying to please her unrealistic expectations and trying to be enough. Not believing the lies about yourself.

2nd - only engage when you are in control of you and your emotions. Learning to walk away without a word, no matter where she goes.

If you feel more comfortable doing this boundaries and consequences thing privately we can private message, let me know.

I hope you are doing well and making progress towards what you want. Hugs!
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Sugarboo Jun 2019
Hi isthisreallyreal,
maybe you can help me with boundaries? I like and really benefitted from your response .. thank you
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Wow! I feel for you so very much because I myself am in an almost identical situation. On top of this, I have very serious health conditions and barely have any time to take care of myself. I crawl out of bed to take care of everything so the work does not build up. I’ m the one taking care of everything, and like you, im with my mom 24/7. Anytime I make one complaint, she threatens to kick me out and then says there are tons of people who would come stay here and do the same thing. I tell her yes, for $10 per hour. So it would cost at least $8 and very few people are going to take care of all the house duties AND all the things you need. She doesn’t appreciate me and she has emotionally blackmailed me my entire life, leading me to think she was going to die at anytime and so I better do EVERYTHING she wants or I would REGRET it and that if I did not do everything she wants, there would be dire consequences. My life is so messed up. I’m a wreck. I’ve never been able to make a life for myself and now I’m stuck in this situation, on disability, and not being able to take care of myself. My sister and brother have not one clue and my mom never bothers them with anything because:
“ well they are married”. I am the following:
gourmet cook
maid-house cleaner
nurse
cna
maintenance guy/handy man
driver
doctor
errand boy
plumber
electrician
ultra problem solver
consultant for everything
and the list goes on and on and on. Yet? I do nothing and live it up and I’m so lucky to live here, according to my brother who lives 10 states away and my sister who lives 30 minutes away and comes and takes mom out once a week for 3 hours to dinner and a trip to the department store but never has to deal with any of the psychological manipulation. Mom sees both my brother and sister as GODS! I’m the one doing everything for 5 years plus, but I do nothing. Oh and we argued one day and she told my sister I said that I was going to kill her so my sister and her husband put cameras up in the house. And prior to this, my mother called my sister and said I was going to kill my brother. My sister called the police and filed a report. So now I have a police record and I’ve never done anything bad in my whole life! All because of my mother, whom I have loved my whole life despite her narcissistic self and abusive self, and only want the best for her. I am stressed out all the time and my mother feeds my sister information that is incorrect. My sister believes my mom because my mother hides her split personality and makes sure to never raise her voice when my brother or sister are around. But with me? I can never do enough. It’s so sad and it is about to put me underground. So believe me when I tell you I completely understand your situation and I have so much empathy and sympathy for you. Just wanted you to know that you are not alone. And I will keep you in my prayers that God brings about a positive change for your situation. God bless you for doing what you do!
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Myownlife Jun 2019
So sorry for all you've been through and still going through.

Do you have any way of getting out of this situation? It is the abuser - victim psychology. Can you find help for yourself and disengage yourself and leave this horrible situation? Remember, you are a valuable person and need to take care of you!!
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Slart, click on my avitar and it will take you to my page, you will see the leave a message, you have to click private in the right top so I will be the only one besides you that can see that.

To get to your messages, click your avitar and then profile, you will see your messages.

I am going to leave you one now.
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We were in the same position with my husband’s cousin, who only has us. He moved into our house. In so many families people get greedy, I mean siblings, not you. Your mom could have slight dementia and is trying not to face up to the fact that she is at the end of her life and is a lot of work. When she passes, count on your siblings comingbin and take no whatcthey can. If not then, then their spouses. My brothers were awesome. My mom offered to sign over her house to me. I declined because she had cancer and I didn’t take care of her for long. You need to do exactly what you are doing. Get rate comparisons for agencies and come up with a rate, probably flat rate is best. To get your siblings on board take into account a FAIR amount for food and room. Considering that you are on call 24/7 that amount would be a nominal sum, not the going rate. Present it to mom. Explain only that you need to consider your future., don’t bring emotions into it other than you love her but havevto consider your own situation. If she balks, present the same to siblings to get them on board. If the balk explain the rules in Michigan regarding assets and nursing homes. Our state allows 2000 in assets, then the state takes the rest of the elder needs Medicaid or a nursing home. I hope they see the light. If not, be prepared to get an outside job and provide 500 worth of care to pay for your board. Let the siblings figure out the home care. If one of them gets her power of attorney, so be it. But it’s invrheir lap. Many people have no idea ofvthe work involved. Tell Mom you love her and be supportive of any new arrangement. It won’t last long.
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Daisyrose Jun 2019
Ugh I’m sorry about the spelling! My hands are too big for my phone keyboard!
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I know it sounds cold. The fact is , if you dont take care of yourself, you will get an illness and die. I have seen it too many times. Caregivers get an illness such as cancer and dies before the person they are caring for. Try to find a memory care facility that will meet your mom's needs and take care of yourself. Go to college or get a job. You owe it to yourself.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
Well, cold or not, I hear you and know you speak the truth and I appreciate that. I have been prioritizing mother and NOT taking care of myself as I should. Now I don’t feel so hot, and am getting concerned about symptoms. Never felt this way before, so I MUST get to the doc. Thanks for the reminder.
BTW, mom doesn’t need memory care, or any facility at this point. We just had a home assessment, and,
SURPRISE!— they said she doesn’t even need 24 hr care! Well, do I feel used? Manipulated? How many ways can we spell Y E S ? Trying to process all of this so we can have a rational conversation tomorrow and develop a plan. I think I must get my own place, then help as I’m needed. She still needs help, but 24/7/365 is killing me. She wants it, but needs to grow up. I do feel like a fool for believing her when she said she couldn’t live alone any longer. She didn’t want to. My life was the sacrifice. So much for motherly love, huh?
Thank you for comments and for allowing me a safe place to vent. Bless you.
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My first thought is you, yourself should be on-line seeking caregiver support groups in your area. Sounds like 2 yrs. with no respite for you. Careful you don't lose your own sense of self worth.
It should be presented to your mother that what you are providing her 24/7 would if you were not present would cost monthly $$$ dollars. That type of information should be available from a variety of sources in your area.
It should also be explained, yes she is providing Room and Board in that sense. But you have put your life on hold to be responsible for her health and welfare. Difficult conversation between daughter and mother to be sure, but one that needs to happen. You said she is paying u 500$ a month or 16.67 dollars a day roughly a day. The time for a dispassionate objective conversation with cost analysis (said mom was sharp) to assist to you so your health and welfare in future are not in jeopardy.
All most sounds as if you and your mother need to have a discussion that has at it's core financial disclosure. Your mother is 87 years old, you are the only caregiver 24/7 at her bequest, her daughter with what sounds like very little financial information about what monies to used today vs an estate when she passed. Yes she is your Mother but this is your life"what do you think you are worth 24/7 365". Good luck eyeball to eyeball.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
You offered good ideas for me to think about. Thanks.
You were right about losing the self worth—that’s unfortunately already a done deal, so I need to believe I can re-build it. I need to hope! That’s what many replies on this site are helping me to do, step by step,
minutes at a time, some days. Of course, there are numerous reasons why I find myself in this trap right now. The number one reason: I always felt it would fall to me to do this, because I should, because 2 other siblings are married, with busy lives, and me, NOT.
Duty. So for that, I blame myself. As a family, we should have explored options, first. In hindsight, it’s all much clearer, but, my mom said she needed me, and so, I’m here. But, we need to explore alternatives, so we will. No easy solutions, and a path to navigate.
You are kind to reply, and I appreciate it. Thank you.
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I would not negotiate with a narcissist anymore than I would negotiate with a terrorist. They can't be trusted with what they say they agree to.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
You have been good to reply quite a bit to me and I sure thank you. It’s obvious you have one or more narc parents. Sorry about that, for you. It sounds, too, that you have known this for a while about your parent(s)
and are trying to help others. You have helped me.

I wonder if you can understand that if you never knew
that your parent(s) were narcs, that it was more like YOU were simply a screw-up, that you spent your whole life thinking you were somehow wrong, even if you KNEW you weren’t, that it would take some time
to digest this new news about your parents being narcs?
I knew they made big mistakes, I knew they neglected things, and I have spent decades trying to figure it out—-I had to. My sibs seem to have left it behind, so they don’t understand problems in their marriages, for example. I had to figure it out so I could move ahead, and I never could. People like you, “survivors of narcs”,
I’ll call you, have taught me much in the past month.
I am learning, and I believe it takes a while to learn about such important issues without jumping to
conclusions and making big decisions that might require lots of thought. Esp. B-cause it’s new to me.
I want to say, again, thank you. There are no quick solutions right now, but without your help, I would not be this far along. Love.
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If your mother was assessed as not needing care, in your shoes, I would leave. Get out; get yourself back on track in your home state.

Your mother is a user. She will not negotiate in good faith. She will promise you unicorns and sparkly things and then renege and call you in for "abuse".

Again. Get free of her. Now.

Since I don't think that you are going to do that:

When you say that her money is invested, I assume that you mean that she's bought herself an annuity. Which guarantees her income for life, but which means she can't touch the principal without paying penalties.

It behooves you to understand your mother's financial affairs if you are going to involve yourself in her life.

Can one of your siblings help you understand the facts (not the fantasy) of your mother's financial situation? Have you talked with your siblings about the fact that you have, in essence, bankrupted yourself in returning home?
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Slartabart Jun 2019
She was assessed as not needing 24/7 care, by one source, and I was happy for the assessment. She still needs care, I just don’t know how much, yet, and she doesn’t know yet, either. We’ll have to figure this out.

Amazing how she has picked herself up since then. She IS a user. She used me to escort her to her AZ home for 2 yrs. after telling me she couldn’t live alone.
This is in hindsight, and I prepared that home for sale with a lot of work. We sold it the 2nd yr for 40k more than she would have asked, at my insistence. She wouldn’t listen to me the first year. Now, I don’t need to worry about that. One less burden.
I hear you about learning about her assets, but those are pretty much set in stone, to be split 7 ways among all kids. The only negotiable thing is my payment, now.
She wants to pay me by an addendum, to the estate , not sure yet. She does not wish to pay me (much) now.
I will explore this. We haven’t been speaking much lately at my insistence. I’m too pissed at the recognition of her using me, at my foolishness and trust in her, and that I didn’t set up an agreement before I moved in. Wrong. Stupid? I trusted. But these 2 yrs have revealed much. She‘s my mother, and I had no earthly idea she might do me wrong. But, she is.

I truly have appreciated your answers and advice. You got me thinking. So have others. But you were direct and clear and astute and I appreciate it. Thanks.
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start - your mother will not meet you on your terms. She is incapable of that. She will continue to manipulate you as long as you allow it. She does not know any other way of being. The tale of the scorpion and the frog illustrates this well.

The Scorpion and the Frog

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

You cannot negotiate with someone who is manipulating you. It is her nature and that nature will not change, even if it takes her down with you.

You need to accept the reality of who your mother is - a malignant narcissist. You cannot control her, you cannot change her, you can expect her to continue to treat you as she has and is. No reasonable (or unreasonable) requests on your part are going to change her. She will not treat you fairly because she cannot. Her wiring is messed up.

It would serve you well to look into yourself and see why you continue to accept this abuse and fantasize that you can fix it. You can't. You need to detach from her and distance yourself - emotionally and physically. Many of us here have. It can be done. and as a result, our lives have improved enormously.
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notrydoyoda Jun 2019
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I know about the limitations with insurance...had limits for my parents too. Of course the kicker is she also has to prove the need for the level of care that the policy requires before they begin to cover anything

the idea to just go get a job is great. Once you have
that income...get a place and move!

You to need to be paid. You need to not just get paid for your work, but to have social security and Medicare payroll payments made, that is your future! Do not go with out!!

life with her is not going to be possible once you make up your mind to put yourself first. So move.
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Slartabart Jun 2019
Thanks for your tips. She wil definitely do better than I will—she has insurance beyond belief. She just wants MORE (whatever) and always has. She did not expect me to rail against her. I have had advice to wait and let her wait for my thoughts. That is what I am doing. I told her we’dtalk Tomorrow. Send good thoughts. I don’t want any conclusions tomorrow, I just want us each to see where we’re at. Thanks.
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In the King James version of the Bible there is a verse that mentions today is the day of salvation. At some point you must face the reality that today is the day of your salvation for this manipulation, shake the dust off of your feet and leave the manipulation games for your own freedom plus take no prisoners with you as you go and unlike Lot's wife in the Old Testament, don't look back. I wish you the best!
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Slartabart Jun 2019
I hear you. Since this concept of narcissism, applied to my mother, is so new to me, I must process it. Thank you so much for the Bible quote. I will not forget it and will return to your reply often, as I need to. I have appreciated your replies. I also know you understand, when an entirely new concept is introduced tuo you, affecting zero entire long life, then, you must take ztime to digest it, test it, and thank fox God, return to the sources of those ideas, as I can do on this site. You are so good to help me and I am grateful. I will return to a this message as I make my way. Bless you, thank you.
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