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Jeweltone accomplished so much. So can I. But it has been a truly yucky day. I am done for tonight. Thanks for reading all of this stuff.
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Reply to njny1952
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You are NOT pathetic. You were trying to be a good daughter, and if your mom was still a good mom it would have worked, and you would have never had to get into this. It is NOT easy to know when to give in to a request that might be reasonable from some different perspective than your own, and when "tough love" is called for. Rule of thumb, don't keep doing something that's killing you, or just can't be done. Trying to make Mom happy may be both of those things if she is bound and determined not to be. Ask your Christian daughter what St. Paul would say!
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Paul would pull out his Roman citizenship card and say, hey is this how you treat a citizen of Rome? While he did not have a card, he did use his Roman citizenship one time and on another time appealed to Ceasar in order to protect himself from upcoming harm that had been planned for him.

Claim your rights as a valuable person made in the image of God which means you have far greater value than a dog or any other pet or for that matter any animal.

You have a lot of things to keep up with on your plate indeed. Try to guard your heart and mind against negative self talk like "I'm Pathetic" You are not pathetic.

You are fighting something that is not your fault, that you were groomed for and was done unto you by someone you trusted, but now you see they invalidated that trust by invalidating your right to be an unique, separate, and competent on your own adult person! So, like Paul, protect yourself!

Next time your mom goes off into one of her tirades, try thinking to yourself but I would not say to her, "Self, this is how a person treats another person and self this is not how a healthy mother treats a child of any age" while quietly and calmly just walking away."

Like a song by Paul Simon says, "just slip out the back jack, make a new plan stan, don't need to be coy roy, just get yourself free, Hop on the bus, Gus You don't need to discuss much, Just drop off the key, Lee And get yourself free, "

There must be 50 ways to leave your mother when she's not acting like one!
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Reply to notrydoyoda
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50 ways to leave your mother… We had a sketch show TV series called (ironically) Goodness Gracious Me which was put together by Asian-heritage performers, and they did exactly that spoof on 50 Ways: the first line was "fail an exam, Ram…"

I'm not sure how funny my daughters' Indian school friends found that.
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You are NOT pathetic. You are seeking advice about a difficult, almost impossible situation.
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Hi Everyone--

Today presented me with everything I feared, and I actually think I did pretty good for me--in huge part thanks to all of you. So, my mother has always gi ven me grief when I hjave left with my husband overnight. She says she never did, but she did--and it ruined any hope of having a free and good time. I did the best I could but there was always a huge shadow because she would call or I would call her and we would have these long coversations about how alone she is and how she hopes I am having a wonderful time, all the while dripping with sarcasm and meanness. This has been going on for probably abpout 5 year
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njny - how did it go differently this time?

I do not contact my mother when I am on holiday, If you feel you must have some phone calls why not limit the number of calls and limit the length of calls? I know it is very hard when you have been "trained" that you must make your mother happy, but no one can make anyone else happy. I used to think that as long as I was nice and treated her well she would come around. Well, she is 103 now and I am 77 and it hasn't happened. Some years ago I changed my tactics and decided to be more honest - with myself and with her. She will never be the mother I need/needed. I have had to grieve the lack of a nurturing mother. I found substitutes along the way in the mothers of friends, and in girlfriends. I limited contact and felt free not to answer phone calls. I worked on accepting that she is the way she is and that she will not change and if I wanted to get more comfortable with her I needed to change. I am still working in all of that but have made quite a bit of progress. People like my mother and yours want to be the center of their children's universes, and they work hard to achieve that. They don't respect other relationships like spouses and want to come before a spouse, before children, and before your health.

Would you listen to anyone else who spoke like that? I hope not. Well, it is not healthy to listen to her either. That is called enabling. You are your mothers narcissistic supply. If you stop being that she will find someone/something else. I did a lot of that for years but finally learned not to and you can too.

Start detaching and start setting boundaries. I will post on detaching below. Recognizing a problem is half the battle. Good for you - you are on your way! ((((((hugs)))))
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Reply to golden23
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Detaching
Accept that others are responsible for their own choices - for example if she is miserable in phone calls, limit them
Anger (yours)– deal with it in a healthy way
Blame – don’t blame and don’t accept blame
Consequences – face them and see that others experience them
Decide what you are willing to do and what you are not willing to do
Detachment is not a feeling so much as a choice of behaviors, though the feelings should follow the behaviors. Detachment means you can maintain positive behaviors towards to others –kindness, compassion,
Don’t enable the unhealthy behaviors of others
Focus on yourself
Forgive, but don’t forget the need to protect yourself
Grieve the relationship as it was, the hopes that you had, the mistreatment you received,
Refuse to be manipulated e.g, emotional blackmail
Respond, don’t react (think out ahead of time how you are going to deal with a situation)
Separate yourself - physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, socially from others behaviors/feelings
Set boundaries
Say “No”
Space –create it between you and them
Try not to take the behaviors personally
Treat others and yourself with love and dignity

You can only control /change yourself – your emotions, your behaviors –do not take responsibility for the others feelings or behaviors
Realize it is a process and that you will make mistakes and get “sucked” in, but that you can learn from your mistakes.
.............
#1 Look after yourself. You have a lot of issues and need time and energy and space to deal with them
#2 Detach emotionally - counselling may be helpful for that - also a book and workbook about Walking on Eggshells" is good and other resources for those with narcissistic parents like the website
#3 Set up the boundaries according to what you think is right, and what you want to or can do and let her know clearly - maybe putting it in writing would be helpful - you do NOT have to do it all for her. Look after her needs of you want to, or help her find someone else to, but not necessarily her wants
#4 Know that when you set boundaries she will test them, and her behaviours may escalate. Be prepared and stand firm and by all means go back to work though she will do what she can to prevent that and make herself the center of your existence. Resist those efforts.
#5 Pat yourself on the back for having survived the trauma of having a narcissistic mother
They need attention (narcissistic supply) - and it is more about that than anything else I think - to be the center of your universe. If you do not give it to her she will find it somewhere else eventually.

Learn about narcissism and detaching, and then do it. Start focussing in your own life and building it up. Your mother will not like it and will probably increase her bids for your attention and also say things that are hurtful to you. Try to not take it to heart - not easy I know. Therapy/counselling would be helpful for you in making this transition. Accept that your mother is who she is and likely will not change, and grieve the loss/lack of the mother that you deserve/needed. This is an important step in accepting the realities and moving forward. Keep coming here to get support for making these changes.
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#4 -**go back to work, go on holiday with your husband, or whatever it is YOU want to do**
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Somehow my response got posted before I was done writing! Anyhow, this manipulation of me has been going on for about 15 years starting after my father died when she was about 73. Her haranguing me about all kinds of things has been going on all of my life. Well, here is today's adventure...

I have been reminding my mother that my husband and I were taking my grandson out of town for two nights before my 11 year old grandson flew back to his home. That meant we were all spending two nights away. I have gone over this with her for a month. We agreed that I would call her each morning and evening. I offered to have someone (a trained caregiver) come over every day that I was gone (I would pay) to do housework or keep her company but she would have none of it. So I saw her today and reminded her that I was leaving and all was well. Then a couple of hours later her call came. "Do you mean you are actually going to leave an 88 year old woman alone for two nights? I don't have a dog to protect me. You have chutzpah--I would never do this to my parent." Well, it was like I got punched in the stomach. I always thought she felt these things but now it was all confirmed. She said she could never do that to her father (she never spent much time caring for him--her sister did). She then went on to read me the riot act about how I had not done a good job as her daughter in a bunch of ways. (I have to tell you that my friends have wondered how I could keep up with her requests and emotional cries for help over the years. I was at her beck and call. I have lost most of those friends because of my dedication to her. I guess it is dedication, fear, and obligation...) She did acknowledge some things I did well. However, there were qualifications. I am ALWAYS being judged and assessed as to my worthiness as a daughter. ALL THE TIME.

Believe it or not, I said, "Yes, I am going away for two nights." She said, And you will continue to leave me when i am 89 or 90?" I SAID YES!!! It was a horrible conversation but I stood my ground, and I felt a surge of confidence. She called back shortly to say she was just upset that she still didn't have a dog, and that is why she didn't feel safe, and that she had a bad reaction when speaking to me, but that she still couldn't believe I would leave her alone. I again reminded her of how she has her "calll button," her two cell phones (in case she misplaces one) and the offer of someone to come over. Plus, there are three families on her street I could ask to come over if there was an emergency. I have covered as many bases as I can, and I pay for all of them--willingly. Then, throughout the afternoon we had multiple tense conversations, but I held my ground and told her I wanted to be able to spend time away with my husband and family. She tried to dictate how I could do that--I could go on family trips and my husband could stay behind. Nice, huh? I stunned myself and did not back down. I suggested that maybe she would feel safer in an independent living facility, and she said she was not moving and I could not make her. (She has always said that if I traveled and left her, she would move into one--I guess that was just an idle threat.) Anyway, it occurred to me today, that this is just so much work. It is draining and taking away my life and energy. I do not want to ever have to officially say goodbye, but if this keeps up, I would have to consider it and only help if there were an emergency. That is not what I want, but I want to live my own life and be happy. I have been so depressed trying to meet her needs and finding my world getting smaller and tighter. I don't want that for myself anymore.

During our last conversation, I asked her how she wanted me to handle calling her when I was gone, because we had argued over what to do, and she went into her, "I can't take it anymore. I can't breathe when we talk like this. " I think she is pulling the same routine, dramatic and designed to scare me, but you never know. It could be real. I just got off the phone as quickly as I could. Part of me cannot believe that I really and truly and strongly stood up to my 88 year old mother. A part of me still feels guilty, but a big part feels more free. It will never be over, and I never know what she will pull next, but I deserve some happiness in my life with my husband and my extended family. I know that. I feel as though I had a surge of strength today. I thank the lord and I thank all of you. I hope nothing bad happens because of all of this, but I just had to stand up for myself. I just had to.
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Reply to njny1952
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Print out what emjo has listed. That's the blueprint for the building of a new life. Take what you just posted at go through it in light of the blueprint in the other hand. Filter your daily experiences through the blueprint to help give you perspective and to keep you on course like you would use a map.

I would more likely say something like this, this and this is what I will do. Try to avoid arguing for she'll likely win. Even if she refuses to related to you as an adult, you related to her as an adult and don't listen to it as well as walk away or hang up when she starts talking to you like her little girl once again. Your body will pick up on this quicker than your mind because if you are in touch with your physical emotions, you'll likely feel a sick feeling in your gut. That's your body telling you that you're being manipulated.

Keep on the healthier path. You are making progress!

One thing about gaining one's freedom is like overcoming an addiction. Unless you do it for yourself, you will never do, just doing it to benefit someone else. It will benefit your husband and others, but you need to do this primarily because it is benefiting you.
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Reply to notrydoyoda
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It's your mother who has the chutzoah. Ps, she should be paying for her care. You tell her for me she's a goniff. She's stealing your life. Shame on her.
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Reply to BarbBrooklyn
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Njny, is your mom on antidepressants?
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Good Morning-- I am reading everything over and over. I did wake up with a sick feeling in my gut. The "adddicted" part of me wants things to go back to where they were--I know that is sick. I prayed for guidance and I heard/saw a message that I need to follow my own path. It was a sand colored path, kind of glowing. There were lots of other smaller paths branching off of mine that I would be able to visit, such as my daughter's, my son's, friends, etc. My mother's path was very wide and close to where I was on the path. Then the vision shifted. I had no path--I kept going down my mother's path and my path shifted to a few pebbles and sand that just kind of ended. It was a powerful metaphor and I know what I need to do--I have just been worrying about her for so long, and probably trying to get that unconditional love for so long that I am in the tough separation spot. I truly do want my own path. When I look at it again, it has sparkly sand and images of many wonderful adventures. I guess I am entitled to that, but wow--I have to reconfigure who I am. Honestly, every day for decades she has been in my head basically 24/7. She got all manic on me yesterday and said she thought she would drive to a few places that are far away. She knows that I always do that driving, but I guess she wanted to upset me. She later indicated she wasn't going to go, but I don't know. I will now expect the silent treatment and I usually do not get through it, but I am going to give it my all.

I will print out Emjo's list and my writing and try to identify new mechanisms for my thinking which is so convoluted. I love your idea, CMagnum, to design a new blueprint in writing. I believe all of you you who have been kind enough to offer honest and heartfelt advice are helping to save me--I was starting to believe I couldn't be saved. Honestly, I am still not sure, but I took a huge-for-me step yesterday that I didn't think I could take. Although I truly do feel sick to my stomach, I will persevere. Babalou--thank you for that message. For all who do not know, a goniff is a thief, and in a sense my mother has stolen much of my life, but I accept much of the blame for not getting this repaired by now. If I get through this, it will be truly the most difficult thing I have ever done, even more difficult than getting through a divorce 20 years ago. I will worry, worry, worry, about her well-being (and always whether she is angry at me) and have to train myself not to call and check. I know you ahve told me I am not pathetic, but this truly sounds PATHETIC! That's ok. I will one day hopefully write that I do not feel pathetic any longer!

I like what Emjo wrote about taking care of her needs vs. her wants. Right now, I am both the sensible adult who has been a highly effective, award-winning, teacher, curriculum director, and principal; and also, at the very same time, a little girl who is petrified that her mommy will leave her, be mad at her, not love her, say mean things, etc. I have my work cut out for me. Getting through the next few days, going out of town, and returning will be stressful, but I owe it to my husband, grandson, and myself to try and have a good time. I need to get her constancy out of my head!

You are all wonderful--thank you, thank you, thank you!
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Oh, in response to you question, Babalou, my mom will not take anti-depressants. She refuses. She does take Atavan which helps her to some extent. I honestly believe she has a bit of bipolar disorder as well as narcissism, but I am not sure. She went to several psychiatrists over the years, but one was sort of like a big flirt--he may have helped her a bit but their relationship was tinged with hints of game-playing and sexuality, and the others didn't last long. My mother needs a huge amount of attention from doctors and the feeling that she is special to them.
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Flirting with doctors or any professional really is normal for the borderline/narcissist. It's a way to get themselves narcissistic supply. They are like attention junkies who get shaky and mean if they don't have another hit lined up. My mom would not see twice any doctor she could not flirt with, which eliminated a lot of very good doctors. She was not as alluring as she believed herself to be.

She hated anybody who was down to business and only focused on improving her situation. She hated anybody who prescribed exercise and a controlled diet. She wanted pills.
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Njny, that sounds so familiar. I've had that with my mom where I try to talk to her and if she's not happy she starts telling me she'll die soon and I'm killing her, or I don't respect all her ailments. (What ailments? I ask) Oh, she has them, she assures me. (Are you in pain? Are you short of breath? Heart pounding? Dizzy? Pressure in chest? Should we take you to the hospital? I ask) Oh, I have things going on... (How about we bring this up to the doctor?) Oh no, I don't want them knowing private things. So she wants me to know I'm killing her or she wants pity for some ailment she won't bring up to the doctor but doesn't want anything done about it. Do they just want us to feel like crap? Is that what makes them feel good?
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I don't think hoovering us into their h*ll by making us feel bad is what makes them feel good. I think they have a need for no one to feel any better than they do. For someone to have a separate identity than them plus be happy is absolutely horrible to them. So, if we are happy, then that means we have pulled away some as a separate person who has their own life. A narcissist just can't make it alone. They have to find a codependent person to use.
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njny1952,

Remember, one day at a time and at times one hour at a time. You are making progress. Rome was not build in a day nor was your grooming accomplished in a day. Keep downloading the updates for a new program for life and install them on the hard drive of your mind. You are savable.
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nj, you're doing fine. We all know how hard it is for you to take that first trip and you're doing it!
And please remember that when your mom tries to guilt you into doing what she wants, she's intentionally trying to make you feel bad. This doesn't come from a place of love.

When you call her while on the trip, remember you are doing something normal and reasonable, and important to your own family. Don't get pulled into drama while away.

We can't change past actions or family history, but we can choose to stop the dysfunction in our generation. We can become better parents for the experience (I call it anti-mothering), better spouses and unconditionally loving people because we truly understand unconditional love.

When you feel the old feelings moving in, give your grandson a hug and move past them. Picture all of us on the sidelines, telling you that you can do this.
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Reply to Linda22
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A therapist once told my wife to be like a mother to herself and by that she meant treat herself like a good mother would.
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You know--I feel like I have a wonderful new set of friends--all of you! I had a very hard start to the day, with huge amounts of drama, but eventually my mother and I were able to have a reasonably adult conversation. One of the better conversations we have ever had. I stood my ground, but I also listened. I know that I must set boundaries and stick to them, and I am taking steps I have not taken before. I don't want to get myself all worked up by reliving this morning's drama, but I can promise you that all of your words are helping me grow stronger and more confident. I called my adult children this morning who have watched lots of drama over the years, and they were filled with wisdom and love. I am going at this one day at a time and sometimes an hour or even a minute at a time. That was great advice. I am also trying to be my own good mother. Bless you all. We are planning to leave in the morning and I am crossing my fingers that all goes well.
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Reply to njny1952
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Mom's judgement of you is wrong on every level. First it is wrong - you ARE a good daughter. Second, it is wrong to use that constant judgement as a means of controlling your life - and to top that off, she is doing it not to help or nuture you in any way, but in order to meet her wants and whims - not even her real needs. And of course over all these years you have internalized it - the fear an guilt inside you matches the criticism and sarcasm she feeds you and you feel crushed in between. Thank God your family is behind you - and once you have these couple of nights away (assuming a phony or even a real emergency is created by Mom to punish you) and the dust settles, consider getting yourself into a supportive professional counseling relationship too.
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Vstefans--I actually made a first call today to find out which counselors were on my insurance plan. I want to find out who might be a god one for me, but I am not "in process." Thank you for the words of wisdom and practicality. I am bringing my iPad with me to read, reread and write!
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njny1952,

Does your health insurance company have a web site? If so, it may help you to find who is on your plan in your area. They often include information like gender, education and where they got their education. If they have one, I'd check it out.
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Njny, just a suggestion. If mom calls with an "emergency" while you're away, call 911. That's what the emts are there for.
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Reply to BarbBrooklyn
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Nervous but heading out. Talk to you soon! Trying to ignore the scary feeling in the pit of my stomach. You are helping me!
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Ideally a parent should be able to want their child to be independent, happy, and not expect you to make sure they are happy or entertained. (Sometimes I think they just want us to be miserable because they are.)

Of course with narc parents, they want just the opposite of us being happy or independent.

Heck, my mom even told me I should go after my husband's brother (before we married), because she thought he would be a better match -- or maybe he was more her type (that was probably it). He's a nice guy, but I wouldn't have wanted to go on a date with him when I was single, but hey, what Mama wants ... she'll be sure to tell you. And she was convinced my father-in-law was falling in love with her and my mother-in-law resented my mom because of that! So much delusion!
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Narcissistic moms only like a potential son in law to be someone they can control. Other men are seen as threats.
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Njny, have a wonderful time!
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