My husband and I have been with my 90 year old parents since before Thanksgiving. It is now January 2nd. My husband had to go home to work in another state. My mom got a respiratory infection and was sent to the hospital due to fluid in her extremities and low oxygen. She’s now on oxygen. I stayed behind to care for her and help out my Dad. I thought that she would get better in a few weeks. It’s not the oxygen problem that she can’t deal with when I leave, it’s that she can’t reach back to wipe her rear because she’s too heavy in her stomach. Granted she’s sitting on a high toilet seat with grab bars, but even before we got that, she didn’t want to wipe herself. Then she wants me to bring her a bed pan into the kitchen while my Dad was cooking in the kitchen, also outside on the common area balcony in front of her door, in the living room - to urinate instead of walking to the bathroom. My Dad said she gets out of bed on her own, wipes herself upfront and gets back into bed by herself. When my wonderful husband told her Mom you need to start trying to become independent again like you were, she went crazy on him and told me go home to your husband. He is the most compassionate person in the world. My mom said to him I want to thank you for you giving up your wife - what does this mean? For how long does she think I’m going to stay around just to wipe her? She said I would never have your father to that. I don’t like to use my father’s car so I’m trapped. I also brought my puppy who needs exercise. She told me don’t be long walking him. Also, she’s supposed to be losing weight and she’s eating cookies, etc. So why do I have to wipe her if she can’t reach back because she’s heavy and she’s not helping herself? My husband and I are in our 60’s and about to retire and she won’t even walk to help herself! It’s so unfair! I bought her a tool to help her reach back and she doesn’t want to try it. If she can’t wipe herself now, I can’t just live with her to just stay around to wipe her. So sorry everyone! PS I had breast cancer and need to go to my doctors too.
And I agree with everyone OP may have had a life of having nice things but she paid a terrible price with her controlling mother. Just because you arent physically abused doesn't mean you aren't being abused. I dont even know if OP at 60 realizes the extent of abuse she lived with. She has never had a breather from mom and a chance to gain some perspective.
In any case things are as they are and the past can't be undone. As need says - change is in order. I believe it is possible.
You say you think you feel you owe them. That could be the case. In reality you owe yourself more - a peaceful healthy life. Give them what help you reasonably can but not at the cost of your health.
Growing up in a dysfunctional household is really hard but at some point in time you have to learn to live independently.
I am very sorry that you have been through so much. I admire the compassion that you developed for your mom and dad but you are equally as important as they are.
It isn’t my place to judge you. No one initially knows how to deal with these situations.
Your entire family’s life revolved around your brother. I realize that all of you were frightened. He took advantage of that fear and held all of you as his hostages.
You and your husband broke free from his demands by moving far away. I am sure that you viewed the situation with your brother differently once you had a chance to be outside of your family bubble.
My brother hurt my mom and dad terribly and I felt horribly about that, just like you did with your parents. He hurt all of us (sister and brothers) too.
My mom tried desperately to pull me into the middle of the family drama and it made me feel completely confused and invisible.
I had to tell my mom, “Mom, he is your son, not mine. Do not ask me to help him any further because I will not do anything else. I’m done. Respect me as much as you do him because I refuse to live in his shadow.”
After I told my mom exactly how I felt she stopped trying to manipulate me and things improved in our relationship. Mom knew that I was no longer going to be talked into doing something that I didn’t want to do.
Please tell your mom and dad how you truly feel. You don’t have to scream or yell.
People generally shut down if there is a shouting match. Calmly tell them that you are going to live your life with your husband that you dearly love and you will help them find the resources to live their lives.
In closing, the final and most important thing for you to understand is that people have to implement changes in their lives.
You are responsible for changing your life, regardless of what your mom and dad do. You can take the lead as the adult daughter and they will adapt accordingly.
Wishing you and your family all the best.
Sorry to say I don’t think OP is leaving in February.
Hopefully Max starts putting herself and her husband first because both of them are more important than her parents.
Her husband sounds like a stand-up guy and very generous too. People reach their limit on how much they're willing to put up with and I hope he doesn't reach his and then it's too late.
If all this is true, then, OP, your problems run waaayyyy deeper than not wanting to wipe mom's butt. You all need serious therapy to learn how to stand up for yourselves and not be someone's patsy for your entire lives. Either that or take some of this money you've been handing over to your brother and use it to hire some big-ass security guards/bouncers to "show your brother the door" EVERY TIME he comes near any of you. Quite frankly, that would be a better use of your money than what you're doing now. For heaven's sake.
I agree that nobody rolls over and takes THIS level of tyrannical abuse and highway robbery from a brother. And now, OP is accepting tyrannical abuse from her mother, updating us daily with the "Guess what?" posts which is just mom using more passive/aggressive punishment tactics to keep her living there. Yet the OP keeps asking advice for the same behaviors mom repeats continuously.
I think I'll have to go back to my original first comment which pretty much said there's no hope for enmeshment to THIS degree; gut instincts are usually spot on. Just keep living with your parents until they pass. At their advanced ages of 90s, it's too late to change this dynamic now. And the more we hear and read, the more that point is underlined, imo. We now read about how the OP 'had' to do this, that & the other thing when ordered to by her parents, which is pure nonsense! Every human being has the power of choice, at least after they turn 18. No is a word we're ALL allowed and expected to use with loved ones, let's face it.
Wishing you the best of luck, Maximus. I think you can't teach an old dog new tricks after a certain point in life, which holds true for you AND for your parents. Just do whatever you can for them while they're still alive to minimize your 'guilt' after they do pass away.
The parents are the ones who chose to be the brother's enablers. They are the ones who should have to deal with the consequences of their poor choices.
Do you mean giving in to your brother's threats and blackmail, and putting their heads in the sand so as not to acknowledge his mental health issues?
That's not the common definition of "giving of themselves", Max.
It is, rather, the classic "everything is perfect in our life" behavior of deeply narcissistic people.
Get help for yourself. Find a case manager for your parents and an eldercare attorney local to them who can get them qualified for Medicaid.
It’s insane to pacify someone who is unstable, hoping that it will go away. I have always admired parents who turn in their children to law enforcement.
My dad didn’t think like my mom but she would undermine him. Family therapy wasn’t common then. I wish it had been. Our family desperately could have benefited from therapy.
No one wanted to call the police. The money that we gave my parents is the money they needed to support my brother with. Mom never admitted he had psychiatric issues. My Dad lost a lot of money, so he had to foreclose on my brother’s last house, finally it came to an end. My brother was living in his van, got arrested, my husband bailed him out and somehow ended up in a psychiatric ward in a hospital. We called the hospital and they said he requested that no one is to be told where he is. We looked him up in public records and we think he’s still alive. There’s more to the story, you can imagine - the physical, mental and emotional abuse to my entire family. Another thing - no we don’t mind helping my parents financially or emotionally, but
what we mind is everything we do has to be with them. We had no life together as just us. My parents built a log home in the mountains and for 4 years straight every weekend my husband and I had to go there. These are the type of people that are so giving of themselves and are such perfectionists with everything that the beauty of this is turning ugly!
P.S. My mom ran a perfect household - everything in order, best of food, best of clothes, finatical with everything. It worked our for them and I must say I had a wonderful upbringing, but I think it affected my brother and I think I feel I owe them.
Why on earth would you allow a vicious tyrant like your brother get away with all that he did.
No one wanted to call the police? Why ever not?
Your parents chose to enable their son's deplorable and dangerous behavior. Their denial of his mental illnesses or other deficiencies is on them, not you.
You had to suffer the consequences of their choices and that was wrong. If anything they owe YOU. Not the other way around.
I hope you let them know this. It's not for you and your husband to financially support them. It is not for you to have to spend the rest of your mother's life wiping her a$$ and being a slave to her care needs while she treats you with disrepect. You've suffered enough, honey. Let it be enough now and you go home back to your life.
"I have dedicated my life to my parents- I’m so drained mentally, emotionally and physically."
and you also gave too much to your abusive brother.
None of them appreciate what this has and is costing you. None!
Time for you now, Max. You and your hub and your home and your life.
You have been giving to the point that your cup is empty, and your health is suffering seriously. This can't continue.
I don't know how much help you can or want to be to your parents. That's for you and your hub to decide - wisely and in kindness to yourselves and others. I'm not suggesting you "dump" them, but back off to a level of interaction that you are comfortable with. I only saw my mother a few times a year, and then only for an hour or so at a time, and usually someone supportive of me was with me when I visited. I was the POA and looked after her finances, with her own money, was the contact person for the doctors and the facilities she was in and made sure she had the best care available. Would she have liked more contact with me? Sure, but it wasn't good for me. Her needs were looked after but not her wants when they collided with my needs. Frankly, that you support them financially is huge.
Just don't give to them to the point of hurting yourself any more. Don't give to anyone to the point of hurting yourself any more. Be emotionally supportive of you before you are of anyone else. You matter!!!!!
Time for your healing, Max, for supreme self care.
I am so glad you realize you have been in denial. It's a whole new ball game for you now. Face the realities - some of which aren't very nice, but facing them is the best thing to do, accept how things were and are, how people were and are - how they really are! Once I accepted how my mother and sister were and stopped trying to see what I wanted to see in them, it was a relief and I could move forward. But it took a lot of me being battered before I did. You are not alone.
Time to build you up. I am glad you will seek professional help. I have gone off and on all my life - I needed to and it helped.
More ((((((hugs))))) Max. I am so glad you have a supportive husband and now you have some supportive cyber friends here on AC. Onwards and upwards from here. 2023 marks the beginning of a new life for you.
Your mum has now heard from her doctor again that she needs to lose weight to help herself. She might be a different person for a short while but, I believe the old narcissist will surface again and start playing on guilt, fear and obligation. You are developing some tools to deal with her. Excellent!!! Keep practicing and using those tools and look out for yourself. She is not number one in your life, you are. Your need to leave and go to your own home and be with your husband is healthy. Her need to keep you there with her and wait on her is unhealthy. Take the healthy route. Don't enable her neediness any more.
If your mother pulls a health emergency just before or when you are leaving, let dad call emergency response services, and have her taken to ER. Stay in control of YOUR life, don't let her take over. Leave with your hub as planned. This is not you being a bad daughter, this is her being a bad mother. It is all attention getting and some will go so far to hurt themselves to get that attention. Been there. She needs to learn that you are not going to cave to her.
I agree with Joann. It is like a toddler pulling a tantrum and needs to be dealt with the same way. You don't give in to them.
Beatty - As long as Plan B means leaving at the same time as Plan A. There can be no alternative to that. Mom is fighting a battle to control Max and in the past Mom has been very successful. She must not succeed this time no matter what tricks she pulls, Max is leaving on the 28th with her hub no matter what happens. Firmness and saying "No" and boundaries need to happen regardless in all plans. My thoughts on the "I'll kill myself" card is that taking it seriously, even if you don't think it is serious, makes mother experience the consequences of her actions. In the normal world if you threaten suicide you get carted off for a psychiatric evaluation. Frankly she needs one.
sp - that's a good idea. Max can start weaning them off reliance on her. They need to find other resources for help if they can't manage on their own. That's life.
Again, Max, very well done and keep it up. (((((((hugs))))))) I had a narcissistic mother, and sister too. Boundaries are essential for your survival. You are a giver, they are takers. Takers have no boundaries, so givers have to have them.
Thanks for sharing about your brother and parents I'll respond to your most recent post later. 💕
"if you threaten suicide you get carted off for a psychiatric evaluation".
AGREE.
I'd repeat that to Mom. In a very stern tone.
My thoughts on a Plan B are still evolving.. but DO include a definate YES to leaving on the planned date.
Make that Not Negotiable.
There's a tricky patch of terrain coming - could be a train crash.
Lead. Drive the train.
Or, Plan B
Be ok with your level of skill. If you don't know how to drive, haven't the time to learn, or cannot see the way forward for the F.O.G. (fear, obligation, guilt). Accept this.
Get off the train.
Alert other people who CAN drive the train. Who CAN see clearly without the family FOG.
This may suit a quieter personality better?
Tape emergencies phones numbers, 911, doctor + taxi, grocery store, pharmacy to the fridge. Point them out before you go. Reassure the folks you will help them & care for them.
This can be in the role of *emotional support* instead. That can be done from a phone call, from your own home.
🚂❤️🏠
How sad that your brother was always given top priority by your parents at the cost of their financial future and the high costs to you too emotionally and financially.
What would have happened to them if you couldnt afford to support them financially? Do you resent having to support them? Do they demand that you support them?
Wow. She played that card early. Haven't even got the suitcase in the hall.
Mom is showing you who she is here. Believe her.
But, I know some people like to dramatize, so not everyone who says 'oh kill me now' needs a 911 emergency call.
Maxi, you know your Mom best - so you know if this is just her drama-speak way or an actual change of behaviour/desperation/emergency.
I'm working on a new plan here - bear with me.. I feel the life-long manipulation & close bond is very strong at this time. Stronger than the ability to put any advice here is into an action plan.
It takes time to flex your NO muscle, learn to set strong boundaries & take small steps then bigger confident steps into new patterns of behaviour.
And you have about a week.. right?
So.. Plan A: Get firm. Start saying no. Build boundaries. LEAVE with DH when he arrives.
I think you need a Plan B. I will put my thinking cap on. 🧠
People who make that drama threat aren't going to follow through on it. They're way too narcissistic and self-important to ever consider doing themselves in. Two friends, people that I loved dearly took their own lives. One because he found out he had untreatable, terminal cancer and did not want to burden and bankrupt his wife and kids. He didn't even tell them he was sick. The other, no one knows why. These two people did not threaten or make their intentions known. They just tragically went and did it. When people are serious about suicide, they don't make drama talking about it. Or threaten with it as leverage to get others to obey them or give them what they want.
The mother making the suicide threats doesn't want to lose her A$$-Wiper-In Chief and care slave, her daughter. So she's pulling out all the stops doing whatever it takes to guilt this poor woman into the dust so remain there wiping and serving in total obedience until her mother dies.
The OP needs to get the h*ll out of there quick. Set up homecare and mom can take it or leave it. Then it's BON VOYAGE!
My mother has pulled this same crap my entire life. She used to pull it on my father when they were married then would try to every time he came by to visit us kids. He'd just get in his car and leave. Then she'd turn it on us.
She's 85 years old now. No one reaches such an old age because they're serious about committing suicide.
The OP should handle it by calling 911 then proceed with her original date to leave and go back to her home.
Nothing should stop her.
What I would tell her mother is the same thing I've told mine.
I'm leaving whether you're here or not. Nothing is stopping that.
The OP should call her mother's bluff.
So glad your pushed back your date on leaving. When the time comes, treat Mom like you would a child going to their first day of daycare. Get the car packed up, kiss and hug Dad goodbye then kiss and hug Mom goodbye, straighten ur back and leave. Your parents need to realize they need help and its not going to be realized until you are not doing for them anymore.
No idea on financial situation, but we solved that issue. We have membership at a Costco and we bought a toilet seat bidet for $230.00 or less on sale for my Mom to use. Plumbing was easy for my husband to install. Only other expense was connecting an electrical outlet (proper kind for nearby water) near the bidet.
I no longer have to help her. She sits, does her business, uses the remote control to clean the front/back, air drys (blows warm air) and she just has to flush. The seats are slightly elevated as well on the bidet.
it’s not without cost and we bought it on sale (most cost $300-500) and we’ve used the Biobidet 6800 for three years now. I use one (same model) as well in her other bathroom. It’s has proven to be effective for Mom and she has less UTIs now because she doesn’t need tissue to dry. The bidet has heated seats as well and options to encourage a BM cycle if needed. It will not spray water if no one is seated. It even helps to clean if diarrhea with an expanded spray/wash cycle. It’s not a total fix, but it might help.
It might take a small learning curve, but it’s priceless for us! Good luck.
If this were a casino I would bet on the odds that daughter will cave and give into moms demands and continue propping up her parents fantasy life of independence.
What exactly do your parents do everyday? Just curious about their activity level.
There are various ways you can deal with this
"I am leaving on the 28th and Dad will look after you." - as you said. Great.
Another way is to take her and her threats seriously. As you get older you get aches and pains. It is to be expected. You don't have to write a novel about them. She's overweight - she wants her knees to feel better? Lose weight. Overweight is the number one reason for bad knees in older women. Lose weight and start moving (exercising a little). Complaining is not going to help her feel better, nor is it going to keep you there. Right? A little tough love would not be out of place here. "Mum, I understand you are in pain. No one can help you feel better. You have to help yourself by losing weight and walking more." Don't give her extra attention when she complains. That feeds her need for attention. see below**
She has threatened to kill herself so she is a self harm risk. Get her to ER and request a psychiatric evaluation. Frankly she needs a full neuropsychiatric evaluation from a geriatric psychiatrist and probably some meds.
Just ignore her - look up grey rock method on the internet. It is a way to deal with a narcissist by withdrawing your attention. **
Tell her you will help her with what you can until you leave, but you ARE leaving on Jan 28th. Actually she really doesn't want help, she wants your attention.**
When she starts, say "Mum, I gotta go" and leave the room. Don't engage with her beyond saying that you are going out or to another room. Leave, take the dog for a walk, go have a bath or whatever. This may "train" her that you will not stay with her when she talks like that. You don't have to spend your day listening to her try to manipulate you,
Change the subject - "My, the weather is nice today." "Isn't dad doing well." "Look how poochie is growing." "I am so looking forward to going home." "It's going to be wonderful being with hub again."
Use a variety of the No, I couldn't possibly, No way that's happening, and so on.
But under NO circumstances allow yourself to be manipulated into staying even an extra hour!!! Even if she pulls the suicide card just before you leave, let dad deal with it and leave anyway.
You can do this. Stay firm! Your life may depend on it. Number one - look after you!!!!!
I like what MeDolly said - leave earlier, even to a hotel.
** Narcissists need attention. It's called their narcissistic supply. They fixate on certain people who give them that attention, and do whatever they can to keep it. You have been supplying your mother with that attention. When you withdraw from being her narcissistic supply she will fight it, but eventually find someone else to supply her with attention.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_supply
What is considered narcissistic supply?
In psychoanalytic theory, narcissistic supply is a pathological or excessive need for attention or admiration from codependents...that does not take into account the feelings, opinions or preferences of other people.
Keep your boundaries and go home, where you belong, with your husband,
When she starts just say " I am going home, Dad is in charge of your well-being".
Me, I would leave sooner.
Your Mom, its what it is. I have a SIL that can be nice and do things for others but when it comes to family its another thing. She can be a real b***h and doesn't care about others feelings. If she wasn't my SIL I would never have her as a friend. And then she makes the statement that people thought her Mom was the nicest person, but they didn't see the other side.
Wake up, you're dreaming.
Happy your dad's surgery went well and he is feeling better.
That's where the
"No."
"I couldn't possibly do that."
"That's not an option."
"Certainly not."
"By no means."
"Of course not."
"Not really."
"On no account/not on any account."
"Hardly."
"No way am I doing that."
"Not likely."
come in.
You, together with your hub, figure out what things you can't or won't do and what things you can and will do. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should or will do it. You have a choice as to what you will do for them and what you won't do. No one can be or do everything for another person. Your first priority has to be your health and your needs or you won't be good for anyone or anything.
Take care of you. You matter every bit at much as your mum and dad even though you have not grown up with that message. What you want, feel and think is important. (((((hugs))))
Adding
"That is not an emergency".
Sort each request..
Hard No.
No.
Not Now.
eg for calling Dad mid medical appointment for shopping items.. Not Now. Not an emergency.
Dog treats can simply be added to the next shopping list.
May you have a great celebration when you and hubs are together.. Keep your eyes on "Your Terms". it's gotta be that way from now on, not just for once and I hope you won't do anything for your parents. It's not healthy. Boundaries!!!
Prayers for your dad's surgery.
It's very, very obvious you "would do anything for your parents." The question is, what is your plan to start doing things for YOURSELVES now? Or is that not really an option?
I think this is the saying by one of our members
No need for them to find a solution, when you allow urself to be the solution (something like that)
No, is a one word sentence
When saying the word NO, your are not responsible for the reaction you receive (Boundries by Townsend and Cloud)
My montra...I am here to help people find a way, not be the way.
As others say, this screaming is to get you to do what she wants you to do while not respecting your choices or needs. You are caught in the FOG - fear, obligation and guilt of a dysfunctional relationship. Only you can change that.
Under no circumstances even consider taking your parents into your home when they can't manage where they are. If for no other reason than that you can't give them the care they need. You have needs including a safe home in which to recover from cancer. That has to be a priority in your life. Your mother may never get that. Ok, Whatever. That's her. YOU get it You have a husband and a marriage which need your attention and you don't need the additional stress of so much time with your parents. In fact, in your own interests you need to visit your parents less often and spend less time there when you do.
That means learning to say "No" to your mother and no to your feelings of fear, guilt and obligation.
That one change on your part can make a huge difference in your life. If you are serious about looking after yourself and having a better life with your husband and less stress from your parents you will have to say "No" probably many times. You don't have to explain why you are saying no, or justify your decisions to not stay longer or visit as much.
Just say no.
If you need to, practice saying it to yourself in front of a mirror. Rehearse how you are going to respond next time your mother screams at you. You know she will, so plan how to deal with it. And walk away from her if you need to e.g. leave the room. And come back here and tell us you have done. (((((((hugs)))))) One step at a time - you will get there.
It will be better to have the husband present when the talk happens.
The parents will take the discussion more seriously and will not likely respond the way they would if it was just the OP.