When is enough enough with narcissistic parents?

MizVic,
You are obviously completely ignorant when it comes to NPD. I wonder what compelled you to write such a hurtful comment.

Dear Daisy008 - sounds to me that you are somewhat enmeshed in the situation - like you want to know the details of health issues and crises, but it upsets you when conversations with your mom about those often end up blaming you - your mom likely knows your triggers and can't resist speaking of them - or she is angry at being blamed for things, and tries to get you back.

I my experience, "knowing why" I let blaming-distant family members "do this to me" - is too large a project, when answers and self care might be simpler, but not easy to do, and important to forgive when one forgets - forgive oneself, and actually forgive the other, for if you know what pigeons do, but you go and sit under a tree with pigeons in it... you can't blame them again, for falling into the traps they seem to be in. I try to remind myself - as of today for instance, NOT to call when I'm tired. Have a rest first. It is very hard to learn to take care of oneself - so easy to chase dreams, ideas, expectations - I'm home with a broken foot right now, and can thus relate to your story, but I hope that you learn as you grow older, to practise saying "no, I'm sorry for your difficulty, but I cannot help today. I'll call you tomorrow and see how you made out....."

I wonder why you have POA, if you find the relationship so toxic. See what I mean? If so many other adults can ignore old family expectations, can you at least give yourself a whole day, or few days, to pause and decide how much you can do? Can you hire a Geriatric Care Manager? Maybe interview a few on your own time and dime, and tell them the difficulty, without telling your mom that you are exploring this - and after you've found someone you like, ask your mom to meet with them - and if she says no, tell her that you believe it's best for you, to have someone else help her - and then leave! It's very hard to break family communication into manageable bits - and my impression on that, is that it's often successful, and for some reason, as soon as things are going more smoothly, I then add on one more piece - thinking as long as it's going well, I'd better take advantage of this rare understanding, so I add on another piece - meanwhile by then both parties are more tired from the talk we've just had, and winging it by adding in another issue, is just asking to have that one treated without care - so by the time we get off the phone, we're at it again!

I have to work on not jumping into issues just because they come up. Not easy grasshopper, but part of a way to allow myself time to deal with things more often in productive ways that feel good to both parties.

I am enmeshed as you say in the health issues, bec I am the only one that helps. I do it all when it comes to my parents. I am and have been the caregiver for 3 years now by myself. It is very hard with 4 kids, I know alot of people do far more than myself. I just needed to write this in hopes that someone was going thru the same thing as myself. I have an appt to talk with someone at assisted living on tue, if that does not work out then I will find someone to take care of my Mom in her own apt. I will interview them and pay for it if neccessary. I am also going to get help for myself and I feel like that is all I can possibly do right now. I do need to be able to say No but when you know that there is no one else, the guilt you feel is unmeasurable!

Daisey, they love the guilt. You need to read Susan Forward's books about toxic parents and unloving mothers. I have read the toxic parents book several times and learn something new every time. Also read Karyl McBride's book about never being good enough. Until you understand what your mother is doing, she will play you like a fiddle. She does not care what she is doing. Help yourself, she sure isn't going to help you. Good luck to you.

Daisy...please get the book - I'm not crazy, it's my mother. It is wonderful and will help you a lot. I waited to long to realize my mother was narcissistic and probably borderline as I always blamed it on her drinking. It wasn't until after her stroke and she wasn't drinking I realized her behavior was the same. I am 57 and now just taking complete control away from my mother - it has been a battle for sure...but you are not responsible for her happiness - only your own! Hang in there - you are not alone.

Excuse me Rena58? Did I miss something? I said nothing hurtful to anyone. Would you mind explaining?

I am not sure what behaviors you are referring to since your question did not delineate. Anytime a behavior is excessive to you, giving you too much stress, and you are no longer willing to handle it, then stop allowing those behaviors to interfere with your life. Just because parents are yours, does not mean they can disrespect you and use you as a doormat. You have rights as a human being that demands you be treated with respect and dignity.

Dear Daisy008, if you can afford a good therapist, it will help you a lot. Not all therapists know much about narcissistic personality disorder, so ask ahead of time if this person has experience dealing with the victims of NPD. It looks like one of the most typical family situations, when the mother has NPD, is to choose one child as the scapegoat; apparently you are the chosen one. I am too. The scapegoat daughter of an NPD mother is traumatized and emotionally abused. This is one of the most damaging ways to abuse a child. The scapegoat daughter is taught that her purpose in life is to make mother happy at any cost; if you don't perform, you are made to feel guilty, inadequate, a failure. If you perform, the NPD mother isn't happy for long. Many such daughters suffer from all kinds of psychological and physical ailments such as PTSD, depression, panic attacks, low self esteem and more. I had some good therapy and I also read a lot of books about the disorder. There are wonderful websites as well. And I will tell you that it helps and your life will get so much better. I will be thinking of you. I know you can make it. Hugs

Daisy - I agree with Rena - I was lucky enough to find one that not only knew about NPD and borderline pers. disorders - but she does EMDR - which is a therapy that simulates rapid eye movement - used for PTSD - changed my life!

Hello,

I have struggled with a complex web of people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and am now throwing 2 parents with Alzheimer's into the mix. I have researched and written a lot about NPD and am sharing these links in the chance that someone may find them helpful. Here’s the links to the three PowerPoints I have compiled:

http://www.slideshare.net/jenimawter/red-flags-to-narcissistic-personality-disorder-compiled-by-jeni-mawter

http://www.slideshare.net/jenimawter/narcissistic-victim-syndrome-a-powerpoint-by-jeni-mawter

http://www.slideshare.net/jenimawter/moving-on-from-narcissistic-abuse-compiled-by-jeni-mawter

I wish you all the very best and thank you for sharing your experiences and insights.

Thank you for posting the books on this subject Sad1Daughter & PalmTrees1. Every little bit helps.
After reading the post I don't feel so alone now, knowing that there are others that have had similar experiences out there.
I am glad that this is a place to come to share and vent.
Let's keep sharing.

I am so very grateful to everyone here for your deep thoughts, talents and time devoted to sharing the incredibly intense struggle with caring for a malignant narcissist. I have been reading about this for years, trying to fight my way out, and yet nothing helps like reading your personal experiences. Your question "when is enough enough" is such a good one. I have found that when I have been strong enough to figure out and express my boundaries, it all shatters because of the "injected poison" I cannot purge. Oh yes, I will keep trying, but every time I visit my father (another victim of my now-deceased BPD mother), it is like visiting a battlefield, re-opening wounds, looking in horror at what was, not comprehending what happened, in shock -- and I've been working on this for years. My husband says it is Stockholm Syndrome, PTSD, whatever -- I do fine when in a good frame of mind, but I can topple so easily and start believing again that I am "a rotten kid" (ahem, I'm 62), evil, selfish, ruthless, only concerned with myself. When I can step into my Fair Witness consciousness, I know none of that is true. But slippage into The Hauntings (my name for Mom's vistations) is as though my own very truths do not matter and she is calling me to jump off a cliff in sacrifice for her -- though she is gone. So I can clearly see this isn't sane. And I can engage in The Practice of drawing boundaries and attempting to allow myself breath, but it is a hard, hard and sometimes impossible thing to do. In my objective awareness, all your responses are right on, and I too subscribe to reaching for sanity. But in weaker times, during dreams, during unstructured thoughts -- I am still captive. I just have to pinch myself and pretend to believe it isn't true with the notion that reinforced belief, repeated over and over and over, eventually causes neurological changes. Sorry for this rather disorganized message, it's almost 3 a.m. and I just got back from Dad's, whose feet are now so swollen that they look like balloons with tiny toes poking out. He too a survivor of Mom, but also colluded with her because after all, she was Everything.

Thank you all so very much!! it really helps to know that I am not alone in this! rena58 you are so right when you say that if I need to make her happy at any cost, and then she is only happy for a while. Its hard to believe that i did not turn out this way to my own children, I have often wondered many times why the Lord did not give me a daughter, i have 4 sons and miscarried 3. But I really see it now, bec I think its bec I probably would have had the same reltionship with my daughter as I do with my Mom. So I am thankfully that i am as sane as I am. I am going to get a good therapist and also look into the above websites and I am getting the book "I'm not crazy its my Mother" thank you all again, for all the positive feedback and making me feel like there is hope again! Hugs to you all!!

My N mother is in a NH with Parkinsons, stroke and dementia. It's her birthday in a couple of days (88). Due to stress I've been quite ill over the winter but since changing my phone number and going low contact I'm slowly recovering. I'm already filled with dread at the thought of visiting. I've bought two shopping bags full of cookies and chocolates (which she seems to live on) and still have to pick up flowers and her favourite apple juice.

I'm thinking I'll just drop everything off at the admin office for them to take to her and tell her I can't visit as I have a cold. That lets me out for a few weeks - until I have something else that's catching {evil grin} - as, after visiting, I slide backwards and feel quite ill for a day or two.

Oh by the way Daisey, I have you beat with the wedding. My cost was 300.00. And I paid that after my parents whined and whined. Poor them, no money, can't afford a big wedding. However they had hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings that I did not know about. They beat me down, however, my father who was an even bigger narcissist than my mother spent 350.00 on his custom made suit. I bought my wedding dress. And he fussed at my mother all the way to the church about it not fitting correctly. They were the Bickersons, ha. So both my parents were narcissistic, actually dad was much, much worse than mom and did far more damage. I always thought she was a victim also but came to realize she enabled him because she always got her way. And she never defended me one single time.
Crazzzzzzyyyyyy people.

One thing I have learned is to have a narcissistic, abusive parent you have to have an enabler. No stable person will stay with an abuser, especially of their child. If you look up narcissistic enabler in the dictionary mom's photo will pop up. Crazzzzyyyyy people.

I am back home in the middle of all the chaos and emotional abuse that I experienced as a child before I made the decision to leave at age 18 and not look back. With 40+ years as a buffer, I thought as an adult I could handle it when I moved back in to help care for my 80's something mother with Alzheimers. WRONG.

Her manipulative and narcissistic behavior is right there under the surface. One day she is sweet as honey, the next she is raging, bullying and critical. No one stands up for me when she cuts into me in front of people, tearing me down piece by piece. They all look shocked of course but no one defends me. Then after they all tell me not to take it personally because its her disease talking not her. WRONG again. Its her alright. Now its her without a filter.

I found myself feeling very anxious, tense and controlled. My insomnia is back and I can't eat. If I stay, I will be on a therapist's couch before long. This is not healthy for me. I spent decades cultivating self esteem and even liking myself and thats all being torn down again.

So,I've made the decision to move. I know others told me to do this a little while ago so I took their advice and got myself a little place close by. Now, when it gets unbearable, I can leave and distance myself.

But, honestly, I don't know why I bother. Many times I've been seriously ill myself or my children have and not once did she rush to our side to help. I am sacrificing everything I had to help her yet when push comes to shove, I know in my heart of hearts she would not have been there to help me.

How does everyone deal with the narcissist's cutting tongue when you are the one with the bullseye on your back?

Dear MizVic,
I apologize if I hurt your feelings. I read your two comments on the subject very carefully. Though you write that your mom has dementia and is narcissistic, you also write that she was a good mother. This tells me that your mother is not narcissistic. Sometimes people with dementia say and do hurtful things, but they are not narcissistic. Or sometimes, we all might have one narcissistic trait or two, especially if we are under stress and we are copying learned behaviors since childhood. Apparently, your mother was caring enough and raised you to be a compassionate person. Even a difficult mother is not a narcissist. I have a close friend with dementia and she is hard to deal with. But when I remember the warm and caring person she used to be, I don't mind visiting her and giving her daughter a little break.

Daughters of narcissistic mothers are wounded and traumatized. We have an excessive sense of guilt; we feel that if mother is not happy, it is our fault. If mother didn't have a good Christmas, it is our fault. If mother has gained weight, it is our fault. If mother broke her nail, it is our fault. We blame ourselves for everything. If golden child brother had an extramarital affair, it was the scapegoat daughter's fault because she didn't buy him the right gift for his birthday and he was feeling down! We also suffer from low self esteem and we feel we are worthless. Our mothers lie all the time and they say things to purposefully hurt us. They lie about important things and they portray other beloved members of the family in a bad light. They create an alternate reality to suit their needs and when they have their way, it is so easy for them to deny everything. "Who me? I never said that! How can you accuse me of such a thing? Your own mother! Shame on you!" Also our mothers are anything but caring and luck empathy. My mother refuses to see her 70 year old nephew, who asked to go visit her, because he had one leg amputated and she would be very sad if she saw him! My brother told me: "I have a big favor to ask: please don't tell mother when your husband travels. She loves him so much, she is upset that the plane might fall and she can't sleep at night because of that." My sister-in-law told me: "please don't tell your mother any of your children's successes. She comes over and puts my children down and makes them feel that they don't measure up."

I am happy for you because you had a good mother; and it is good that, no matter how hard it is now, you are there for her. I feel that my mother really hates me. I have a serious health issue and when I hinted about it to her, she had my brother call me and say: I forbid you to tell anything unpleasant about your health to our mom, because she loves you so much, she gets upset.
So now my mother asks:how are things? Everything good? to which I reply: Oh yes, mom. All is great.

I don't mind caring for the old and I know that every single daughter of an NPD mom feels the same. Every single one of us wishes to have a normal relationship with her mother. We all crave a mother. Even a mother with dementia! At the beginning of my road to healing, I thought I could change my mother; I thought that we can sit down like two adult women who care for each other and talk about our problems. And I wouldn't even mention the childhood, the teen, the old wounds. Just resolve the current issues. I so wanted to have closure. I realized that this can't happen.

I know you didn't mean to cause any pain and I am sorry if I upset you.

But when I read your post, I felt: I am a bad daughter. My mother was right when she told me that she is ashamed of me. Look at this other daughter; though she has suffered like me, she still is taking care of her mom.

I hope you can see how a daughter of a narcissistic mother feels. We are ready to move in and shower our moms with all the love we want to give, we need to give, we crave to give. But it can't happen.

In the book "I'm not crazy it's my mother" they refer to the people who do the narcissists bidding when she has had a fight or someone won't respond, as Flying Monkeys. It made total sense and made me laugh. Now I see that not only was my sweet dad an enabler, but also a flying monkey. When I fought with my mother and wouldn't call her, god forbid she call me, my dad would call saying oh she didn't mean it, or you know your mother,etc. I would call because I loved my dad and knew she was making his life a living h**l.

My mother had very little filter before the stroke, now none. The AL owner said to me when she met me - first I'm sorry, then I haven't in 25 years ever dealt with anyone like my mother. That was certainly telling.

What I do now is when she starts to get "like that" I just say, ok well it's time for me to go, and I leave. She has chased me down the hall saying, what's wrong with you or FU. I just keep walking. I can't saw that it is helping - but I stopped taking the abuse. My relationship with her is definitely not better...she hates that I am no longer her whipping post and I feel much better!

My sibs and I have to deal with a narcissistic mother who has dementia. Whenever she gets super-demanding and critical, I sit down with her, take her by the hand and calmly tell her that, based on her criticisms, it is clear that she would be better off in a long-term care facility where she would have an entire staff of medical professionals at her beck and call 24/7. Then I offer to set her up with that tomorrow. I end the conversation suggesting that she think about it and tell me if that's what she wants.

Since I know that being in a nursing home is her greatest fear, this calm, gentle "threat" is usually enough to shut her up for several days. Since she has dementia, she will forget about it, but when the complaining starts again, I gently offer to find her a care facility again.

I shared this approach with my sisters, who also take turns with the caregiving, and they do it too, so there is a consistency in the approach. When the time comes that this is not enough, we will escalate. I already have the informational packet from the best nursing home in their area, so I will hand it to her and tell her to give them a call. My sister has already handed her the phone book open to their yellow pages ad. That kept her docile for a whole week!

I had a Parent that was Narcissistic? He was abrasive till the day he died. I have all ways wondered if it was a control issue? Meaning the lack of control over you? I suggest you call their bluff, without doing elder abuse, it is easy to go passed the line. But before that can happen, walk outside and scream! If it gets to were you can't tolerate it, and its getting too personal. Its time to look for a new place were it will not be personal to you anymore and the workers are use to dealing with this behavior.

Is there a limit to how long the responses can be, it is really difficult to see all responses when some are so long (it would be nice to have just the first inch of a response). I know these are some tough topics, but some responses seem overly long.

When I was growing up I never thought of what a narcissist was. It never occurred to me that any of my family members were so self-driven. Even now I shake my head/heart is disbelief that people can be like 'this'... I think I was probably in denial... Funny how, as you age, you have to face such sad facts... let alone have to deal with them... Also it saddens me that, as we age, families are being pulled apart, rather than coming together... Life is such a miracle... We should love each other more... I'm the 'type' of person that will always love my family 'members' no matter what, even though I'm very sad at the outcome... I pray that God will intervene.

Rena58 said "We are ready to move in and shower our moms with all the love we want to give, we need to give, we crave to give. But it can't happen." That says it. As I keep thinking about "When is enough enough with narcissistic parents" my answer as one narc'd would have to be "When you die for them." Normal love and caring is never enough. Being smart enough to realize that and move thousands of miles away and practice good BPD mental hygiene is not enough. Those of us that are really scarred and hobbled and working around our lifetime of guilt, confusion and sub-human subordinating our own compassion and love to care of our damaged souls -- differentiating from a BPD is like murdering your own self so a phoenix can resurrect. I think for truly nar'd souls, you keep going back and back and back because you are so crazy grateful they let you live. For some of us, the occasional birthday gifts (always either junk or hand me downs or else so elaborate mother's resentment made you pay the rest of your life) or family trips we cling to as proof of something, and like ghosts we keep going back to try to find what we missed out on. And enough is never enough because you are a ghost visiting a ghosts, locked in. After all, what rational person would give over to a wailing baby? I witnessed my mother with my sister, when kicking her little baby legs, fiercely pushing them down and finally tying them down. Only decades later did I realize what this meant to me, older sis. My brother died of alcoholism (started secretly drinking at age 12), my sister kidnapped and raped in our neighborhood and I (not Mom) comforted her and took her to the hospital and stayed with her, Mom never speaking of it again. So on. My brother killed himself, and even that wasn't enough for Mom. A year or so later when arguing with her (I was on my own by then) -- her semi-final words -- "Go ahead and leave and never come back ... see who comes to YOUR funeral." I love you all for reminding me, every time the creeping guilts come back, that I wasn't crazy and that I deserve to live. I want to stay on this thread til I can re-read everything, and I've cut and paste a "webiography" of the referred readings all of you have shared because I intend to read every one. It's not Modern Language Assoc. formal, but if anyone wants it, I'll send it to you. You restore my faith in everything, all of you.

Wow -Heart2Heart its so funny that you say this (i don't mean haha) anway I was just telling my husband the same thing this morning. Now that I am almost 49 is this happening - that I am seeing all of this for the first time. And my family is being pulled apart and I know it will be more so in the coming months. I so agree life is a miracle and I know that you are only given the time that the Lord gives you and you should make the most of it bec you never know when he will call you home. I also agree we do need to love each other more, but sometimes love is just not enough and you need some help to see what has been there or not been there all along. I too am praying for help, support and guidance and I believe the Lord is already stepping in when he connected me to this website. There are some wonderful people here with great advice and I feel better already!

@ NJ -you ask how do you deal with the cutting tongue when the bull's eye is on your back. It is the story of my life. You have to learn to detach - emotionally distance yourself - from your narcissistic parent(s). Google "detaching" and you will find many resources. One psychologist, Pauline Boss, recommends that people who have been abused by their parents do not take on hands on caregiving, but rather arrange for others to do it, and stay at arm's length, She says to be humane to your parent, but do no further harm to yourself. I think we all are OK at being humane to our parents, but do not do so well at making sure there is no further harm to ourselves. I am still working at that one, while making sure my mother is properly cared for by others.

sad - the relationship does not get better because one half of it is a very sick person, so a healthy relationship is impossible, but you can stay healthy. Walking away does not necessarily change her, though it might for a while, but the most important thing it does is change you. It is helping because you are taking steps to be subjected to less abuse. She is the same but you feel better. Good for you!!!

hearttoheart - I agree that families are being pulled apart. It happens for various reasons in society now, and the saddest being that family members do not get along, or are abusive to one another. I have tried for years to get along with my sister and slowly have had to accept that it isn't going to happen. I think there is a picture (fantasy) out there about the perfect family - as we see in the movies or on TV. That sets us up to expect/work towards accomplishing that fantasy, often against impossible odds. All the families I know have some problems. The only one we can change is our self. I have been in denial about my sis off and on, as I wanted a sister with whom I could share. Didn't happen and isn't going to happen, unless there is a miracle. What I am doing is getting on with my life, making sure I have as good a life as I can have, and if the miracle happens, it is icing on the cake.

Blessings to all and do something good for you today - you are worth it! (((((hugs))))

Emjo, when I am alone with her and she starts cutting into me, I can ignore it for the most part, its when we are out with company and she starts tearing into me to publically humiliate me that drives me to near tears. No one stands up to her, usually because they are shocked and have only just met me (so maybe its the truth, how do they know?). Everyone tries to be polite and ignore the continuous verbal bullets aimed at me but really would love to know what would happen if someone for once would have the guts to call her out on it. Just once.

In the meantime,i'm sure I'll be the "bad daughter' who moved out and abandoned her, never mind that she has a husband caregiver plus now outside help.

Take care all, didn't realize so many of us are in the same boat!

Bad daughters unite!!!! I am the bad daughter too. I have seen the jaws of others drop when mother comes out with one of her "barbs" to me or others. Have you thought of responding to her - like "I beg your pardon", or "I beg to differ". They count on that they will drive you to tears or on the defensive. My sis (golden child) does the same. Mother has sent me horrible emails and my response latterly was that if she ever did that again I would cut her emails off. When she starts with her nonsense, if I can't stand it, I say what I think and that, "We will have to agree to disagree on that." I know the personal attacks are particularly hard to deal with. I have come out and told mother that I did not want to hear any more about a particular subject - like my appearance, how I should dress, or a person she is continually harping about. If you get assertive and avoid the defensive and/or tears they tend to back down as they are bullies. Another strategy is to walk away and tell her that if she ever talks to you like that again you will walk away, or very much reduce contact, refuse to socialize with her, take her shopping etc. -whatever works for you. There is no reason you should continue to subject yourself to that verbal abuse. Figure out a strategy to protect yourself. They count on the fact that you are polite and don't want a scene. You can simply excuse yourself and go somewhere else, at least temporarily, to make a point. She will not get as much out of telling stories about you if you are not there to be shamed. I have terminated a visits due to the verbal/emotional abuse. I just pack up and leave.

Yes, there are many of us on this board and elsewhere. Good luck

Thank you ALL for all of the wonderful incite. :-)

Rena 58

You said my comment was hurtful, but I meant it to be kind toward my mom, it was not about you. I can say that you are wrong when you say that a narcissist cannot be a good mother, because my mom had motherly instincts toward my sister and me. She kept us clean and fed, and took care of our basic needs, but she was definitely a narcissist.

A year ago I was told about the website, not knowing what a narcissist was, and when I read the traits I was blown away because she fits each one.

A person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance,
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love,
3 Believes that he or she is "special" and unique,
4. Requires excessive admiration,
5. Has a sense of entitlement,
6. Is interpersonally exploitative,
7. Lacks empathy,
8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her,
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

If you were around her for a few hours you would agree, she definitely has NPD.

She has 2 sisters who also have NPD, which explains everything I endured as a child. You think I am not wounded or traumatized? Think again. I am an emotionally unstable woman who is morbidly obese, something she insults me about daily.

I am sorry you took my comment personally, when it was not meant towards your situation, it was meant to explain mine.