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In NY they have a period a 5 yrs look back and come after everything your parent has, had or gave away!! My brother and I went to a lawyer and put our names on the deed and had to wait 5 yrs until they couldn't come after our mothers home. Now they want to raise it to 7 yrs so they can come after her money and home after 7 yrs. You must go to a lawyer and set it up first in NY. What a lovely country we live in!! Other people in other countries don't have to worry about this it's paid with your taxes. And the money goes to quickly because it's so expense (rip off) and then when nothing is left they try to kick you parent out before they have to go on medicaid!!!!! We went through this with my mother-in-law and hope we don't have to with my mother. Boy, medicaid harasses you!!!
Yes, there are certain assets that they can be recovered from you if Medicaid is paying his bill and if the assets were transferred in a certain timeframe. It used to be in PA at least the assets had to be transferred five years prior to Medicaid being used but it could be longer now?? I would definitely ask an attorney before doing anything.
It would be almost a miracle if all 8 siblings were capable of caregiving and also had a suitable environment for an elder who needs nursing home level care. Plus the idea of passing Dad around for a month here and the next month there may be very detrimental to his health. If his impairment happens to be dementia, going to 8 homes in rotation would be an absolute disaster. (I love all 5 of my kids/step-kids. But the idea of spending a month with each of them in rotation makes me want to cry, and I don't even have dementia or a serious illness.)
If Dad is so concerned with equal treatment of the heirs, giving a couple of them money now and subtracting that amount from the will definitely risk inequality. There is no saying how much will be left for anyone to inherit. If Dad develops a chronic condition the saving could easily be wiped out.
How do the rest of you feel about the sibs that need money now? Would you be OK with Dad simply giving them the money? My mother sometimes gave money to our needy (mentally ill) brother. None of us cared or expected equal gifts. In fact, we often slipped little gifts to this brother ourselves. (We are not talking large sums here.) How would that work in your family? This still could cause a problem for Medicaid, but not nearly as big a problem as giving away all his assets would be.
Dad needs to keep his assets. There is no telling what he will need over the course of the rest of his life. If there is anything left over, that can be divided eight ways via the will.
I know that I'm preaching to the choir here. You don't want him to give away his assets. Doing so could cause all kinds of problems. Is there a non-family member your father would take seriously who could advise him? Sometimes parents dismiss advice from their children! Seeing an estate planner might be a good idea, too. If Dad is convinced the 8 will be treated equally, maybe that will reassure him and deter him from giving assets away prematurely.
If there is no money for a nursing home and ineligibility for Medicaid, the nursing home will simply not accept Dad, or if he can pay for a while they will evict him when the money runs out. They won't come after his children unless one or more of them have signed a guarantee to pay for his care. Without that they just won't let him run up a big bill.
Let us hope that Dad lives to a ripe old age in excellent health, that he never needs long term care, and that there is a nice estate for all of you to inherit. That would be the ideal situation. Unfortunately you need to plan for an alternate scenario, just in case!
This situation has the potential for a major F-up if I ever saw one! Well - read one. Anyhoo-
This has to be an all or no one decision for everyone involved or you're gonna have - well, a major F-up. Sorry! Let's say some took dads gift and some didn't. Dad needs NH care but he doesn't have much money to last and Medicaid says "so sorry - try again in 15 months". What the heck are you suspose to do with dad?
Ask the siblings who took the money to pay it back? Yeah, right. Ask the siblings who took the money to care for dad in their home? Good luck with that. OR are the same sensible siblings who did NOT take the money gonna be stuck ponying up the money to keep dad in the NH? Maybe. Or are these same sensible sibling gonna figure out how they are going to split the duty of caring for dad in their home? I'd bet on that one. All the while, the siblings who took the money are no shows for respite care, visits with dad or even a phone call. Cause I'm pretty sure that's how they'll be cause if they really cared about dad, they wouldn't have taken the money in the first place.
Do more than opting out. Figure out a way to end this nonsense. Otherwise you can count on being sucked into the drama and heartache that sure to occur if dad follows through on handing out inheritances while he's still ticking. Know how I know? Cause you cared enough to come here and ask this question in the first place.
No offense, but I bet that out of 8 at least 2 will spend the money immediately, so you cannot count on it being available for payback if needed. If when needed medicaid is denied, realize the NH has no obligation to keep dad without payment - so he can be legally evicted. Try to convince him not to divest assets while he is alive.
One thing you may suggest is that the father makes an interest-free loan to the two who need or want the money. The loan would need to be paid back if he needed it for care. And if he didn't, the loan would be deducted from an amount they would receive in the will. That would probably keep everyone covered. They would have to sign the loan agreement. Maybe they would be okay with it, since it would only come due if he needed it. And who knows? Maybe they would even do in-home care to keep from paying back the loan. It could work for everyone in the end.
I agree that he needs to keep his money, for his own health care. My mother lived to be 96. Her health care was expensive, but that is what her money was for.
Bingo KatieKate and JessieBell on the corral. All is fine now and I am sure they would sign a contract. I have learned a contract is only as good as the paper it is written on. If the others, let's say 4 had no assets left then we would be in same boat. It is not a lot of money and my brothers and I think he should keep his money anyway. I am going to opt out of the asset party pot and hope Dad understands.
This is my suggestion. Do the transfers and then make a plan for all 8 to collectively be responsible to take care of Dad. Period
Plan it out so that each of the 8 know exactly which months of each year they will have Dad living with them..and they will provide the care that Dad needs.
Make a contract...all sign.
Then..proceed to do with the assets your Dad needs for his care as you wish...since you all will provide that care at no cost to him when he needs it.
Now..Medicaid is not in the picture...nor a nursing home. No more worry about taking those assets that Dad will need....you will make sure he doesn't need them. Problem solved.
The answer is fairly simple. If your father could not qualify for Medicaid because he had transferred all his assets to the children, then he would not be able to afford to go into a NH. He would have no money left and Medicaid wouldn't cover him for a while. Unless the children paid out of pocket, other arrangements would have to be made for his care. Is he concerned that dividing assets among the children could not be done with a will? If he wants to give a couple their share of the estate now, then he can leave them out of the will. The bad thing about that is that he could incur a penalty if he needs Medicaid, and if he does have to go into the NH, then there could be little left to leave the others at the end.
So looking at your post on the other thread, your father wants all children and step children to inherit equal shares in his estate; but he would like to advance one or more children part or all of their respective legacies now, and thinks the fairest way to do that is to divvy up his assets among all his heirs? Does it really have to be the whole lot?
Perhaps he'd do best to consult an estate planning specialist (lawyer or accountant). I'm sure there will be a way to do this that keeps the risks to a minimum, with provisos in case of.. oh, who knows, fire, flood, global banking collapse, whatever; but his current idea seems a bit gung-ho.
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure they couldn't come after you personally as being jointly and severally liable for the whole sum of the penalty and/or fees; though maybe - certainly morally - for the money gifted to you. Which would give you two obvious layman's options:
1. Take and bank your share, and don't touch it, and be ready to give it back if it's called on. 2. Corral your seven - Lord! - siblings into a room and don't let them out until they've agreed to join you in prevailing on your father not to be a fat-head. He should keep his money in case he needs it during his lifetime; and deal with the equal division of any remaining estate in his will.
Or... does he have any long term care insurance? Any dedicated funds for his own care?
No he wants to make sure all 8, yes 8 receive equal shares of the assets. My concern is if he needed NH care prior to 60 month look back period, and Medicaid was not approved due to transfer , could the facility come to the 8 who rec'd $ for reimbursement. My concern is two fold. One, what if some were unable to payback, and Two, if so would others have to make it up. My fear is that biological children would be held more accountable. and if that is so would biological kids be more liable than step children. I am trying to decide if I accept none of it does that release me of any liability
As I understand it, if your father divests himself of all his assets and then applies for Medicaid to pay his NH fees, then Medicaid will decline his claim for a penalty period calculated according to how much your father has given away. So your father, or his family, will have to meet the full cost for that period. Some states do have filial responsibility laws which could make his family liable if they try to evade payments which they could easily meet by, for example, using the assets given them by their father.
If your father is thinking of transferring his assets and defaulting on his contract with the NH...
I'm sorry: could you explain exactly what the plan is, here? Seriously, is your father (or his family) looking for a simple way out of paying for his care, which is what you've made it sound a lot like?
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
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APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
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If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
If Dad is so concerned with equal treatment of the heirs, giving a couple of them money now and subtracting that amount from the will definitely risk inequality. There is no saying how much will be left for anyone to inherit. If Dad develops a chronic condition the saving could easily be wiped out.
How do the rest of you feel about the sibs that need money now? Would you be OK with Dad simply giving them the money? My mother sometimes gave money to our needy (mentally ill) brother. None of us cared or expected equal gifts. In fact, we often slipped little gifts to this brother ourselves. (We are not talking large sums here.) How would that work in your family? This still could cause a problem for Medicaid, but not nearly as big a problem as giving away all his assets would be.
Dad needs to keep his assets. There is no telling what he will need over the course of the rest of his life. If there is anything left over, that can be divided eight ways via the will.
I know that I'm preaching to the choir here. You don't want him to give away his assets. Doing so could cause all kinds of problems. Is there a non-family member your father would take seriously who could advise him? Sometimes parents dismiss advice from their children! Seeing an estate planner might be a good idea, too. If Dad is convinced the 8 will be treated equally, maybe that will reassure him and deter him from giving assets away prematurely.
If there is no money for a nursing home and ineligibility for Medicaid, the nursing home will simply not accept Dad, or if he can pay for a while they will evict him when the money runs out. They won't come after his children unless one or more of them have signed a guarantee to pay for his care. Without that they just won't let him run up a big bill.
Let us hope that Dad lives to a ripe old age in excellent health, that he never needs long term care, and that there is a nice estate for all of you to inherit. That would be the ideal situation. Unfortunately you need to plan for an alternate scenario, just in case!
This has to be an all or no one decision for everyone involved or you're gonna have - well, a major F-up. Sorry! Let's say some took dads gift and some didn't. Dad needs NH care but he doesn't have much money to last and Medicaid says "so sorry - try again in 15 months". What the heck are you suspose to do with dad?
Ask the siblings who took the money to pay it back? Yeah, right. Ask the siblings who took the money to care for dad in their home? Good luck with that. OR are the same sensible siblings who did NOT take the money gonna be stuck ponying up the money to keep dad in the NH? Maybe. Or are these same sensible sibling gonna figure out how they are going to split the duty of caring for dad in their home? I'd bet on that one. All the while, the siblings who took the money are no shows for respite care, visits with dad or even a phone call. Cause I'm pretty sure that's how they'll be cause if they really cared about dad, they wouldn't have taken the money in the first place.
Do more than opting out. Figure out a way to end this nonsense. Otherwise you can count on being sucked into the drama and heartache that sure to occur if dad follows through on handing out inheritances while he's still ticking. Know how I know? Cause you cared enough to come here and ask this question in the first place.
If when needed medicaid is denied, realize the NH has no obligation to keep dad without payment - so he can be legally evicted.
Try to convince him not to divest assets while he is alive.
All is fine now and I am sure they would sign a contract.
I have learned a contract is only as good as the paper it is written on. If the others, let's say 4 had no assets left then we would be in same boat. It is not a lot of money and my brothers and I think he should keep his money anyway.
I am going to opt out of the asset party pot and hope Dad understands.
Plan it out so that each of the 8 know exactly which months of each year they will have Dad living with them..and they will provide the care that Dad needs.
Make a contract...all sign.
Then..proceed to do with the assets your Dad needs for his care as you wish...since you all will provide that care at no cost to him when he needs it.
Now..Medicaid is not in the picture...nor a nursing home. No more worry about taking those assets that Dad will need....you will make sure he doesn't need them. Problem solved.
Perhaps he'd do best to consult an estate planning specialist (lawyer or accountant). I'm sure there will be a way to do this that keeps the risks to a minimum, with provisos in case of.. oh, who knows, fire, flood, global banking collapse, whatever; but his current idea seems a bit gung-ho.
1. Take and bank your share, and don't touch it, and be ready to give it back if it's called on.
2. Corral your seven - Lord! - siblings into a room and don't let them out until they've agreed to join you in prevailing on your father not to be a fat-head. He should keep his money in case he needs it during his lifetime; and deal with the equal division of any remaining estate in his will.
Or... does he have any long term care insurance? Any dedicated funds for his own care?
My concern is two fold. One, what if some were unable to payback, and Two, if so would others have to make it up. My fear is that biological children would be held more accountable.
and if that is so would biological kids be more liable than step children. I am trying to decide if I accept none of it does that release me of any liability
If your father is thinking of transferring his assets and defaulting on his contract with the NH...
I'm sorry: could you explain exactly what the plan is, here? Seriously, is your father (or his family) looking for a simple way out of paying for his care, which is what you've made it sound a lot like?