How can we convince Dad to let us keep a copy of the POA in our home?

Thank you country mouse and vstefane. I did not mean to sound angry. I have let go of so much however I know what I intend to do. As alternate to my younger brother I will most likely never have to be POA. However, the POA in mom's state gives the agent the power to "delegate" to someone in the case you are not able to do something for the principal and then rescind the power. In other words he can be the POA and have me running around doing all the work. You see I am retired and he is not. In fact I am the only one retired and healthy in the family.

My point of presenting this sad and sorry story is that in the end I can refuse to help someone who has tried so,hard to exclude me. I hope it never comes to,that but I have to ask if anyone of you would be POA for someone who said and I quote, "if Susie gets her hands on my money she will just blow through it all"? I never took one red cent from my mother. And I no longer feel it is my obligation to be the actual POA for her. There are alternatives.

You probably have to provide a notarized document resigning as alternate POA if that is definitely what you want to do. Your brother, after having stuck up for you, might be hurt by this, so you might want to tell him or ask him first how he would feel. In the long run, mom was not good to you or fair to you, and now can't be honest with you or maybe even with herself about it. Resigning does mean that means you might not have a say so when you want or need one - there might be no one between mom and a dishonest or greedy individual if your brother cannot do it..how good is that nephew??

Palmtrees, big hug. I feel sick on your behalf. Numb pause.

How can people treat someone like this and just think it's ok? I'm not just saying "how dare they", I mean literally, how does it happen? What is going through their minds?

Maybe not much is going through their minds. Maybe that's the point. I don't know if it's better or worse.

The thing is, though, shredding your copy won't change your status. I think you're right to wash your hands of it, but do it matter-of-fact: write to the lawyer, tell him you're withdrawing and he should do the appropriate paperwork to that effect.

Also, how long ago did this happen? Not more than a day or two? You sound hopping mad; and although so would I be that isn't the best frame of mind for being business-like in. Maybe give it a day or two, then get it wrapped up. You'll feel better for it.

I'm sorry. Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water, eh?

Here's my situation. After several years of trying to get my mother to assign my brother POA and me alternate in case of his death, she finally did. Now this is with much lying and backstabbing toward me because she was ashamed of how much money she had accumulated and how cheap and miserly she has always been. But finally about a year or so ago my brother took her to a lawyer and they did the paperwork. Before she did this, she stated that she wanted my 30 year old nephew to be her alternate. She just could not resist one last jab to her only daughter and someone who never took one penny from her ever. My brother refused to let her do this.

So, after all her lying and back biting, they spelled my name wrong. I have only had this name 32 years. No one included me in this process or spoke to me about any of it or I would have caught the mistake. When I asked mom about it she lied to me again. Telling me that she didn't know anything about he POA and did not have a copy. All lies.

So what did I do? I went into my files and shredded the POA. Should my brother die, her attorney will be in control. I will not seek guardianship of some who lies aBout me and does not trust me. I would be crazy to try and handle her financial business considering our past.

Yep, the POA is gone and rescinded.

So yes, I refused the alternate position. And no, no one knows yet.

Heidi if your mom has been diagnosed with dementia, she really needs your help. You need to start reading up on dementia and Alzheimers, because what she's doing (accusing you of theft for example) is par for the course for the disease. Go to youtube and look for Teepa Snow's videos on Alzheimers. She's got a bunch of wonderful videos.

Who diagnosed her with dementia? If it's the doctor who's now asking her for permission to act, that's kind of strange...if it's a different doc, then you need to make sure her regular doc is aware of the diagnosis. I'm sure you'll get other good advice on here, but please don't walk away from your mom if you can help it. It's her disease talking and acting strangely.

Hi Heidi, I'm still learning too, and I was given POA last year. I was very unclear about it at first, but after doing a lot of reading on this site, and reviewing the document regularly, I've been learning more and more.
A lot of institutions can be wary about accepting it, and sometimes they'll have their own POA that they'll require. It's very frustrating.
But it sounds like you have several issues w/your mother. No longer having good communication/contact, not having a key anymore, and so on.
Perhaps you can speak with her physician directly, and let him know what's going on. That might be a good first step.

Are there different levels of power of attorney (yes, I'm still learning)? My mother gave me one, and I've handed it to her doctor and so on and it seems to be no good. They still have to get permission from her on everything. I used to have a key to her apartment and a debit card so I could shop for her, pick up prescriptions, etc., but she thinks my husband and I stole something from her (and some other oddball accusations that make no sense, either). She's shut me out more than ever when she needs help more than ever. I'm on the verge of not caring, except that I think it's awful that she's isolated herself so much.

K4rose, I'm glad that got sorted and that your father in law, clearly, is feeling a little more relaxed about the process. I too hope the paper will gather dust forever!

Um. Just to set my mind at rest: do bear in mind that POA won't override your FIL's wishes unless God forbid he becomes incapable of expressing them. I'm just looking at your mention of medical treatment up there. If FIL doesn't want medical information shared it still can't be, of course. But with POA perhaps your husband will be better placed to persuade him to come clean :)

Best of luck, hope all is well with your mother now.

To all of you who expressed an opinion on my FIL giving us the POA, we now have it. When visiting my mom this past week, we also visited FIL. My husband asked his dad if he could go over with him again his important papers to make sure he knows where everything is in case of an emergency. Don't know if it was our conversation at breakfast telling him about the hard decisions my brother & I have had to make regarding my mom's situation or what, but FIL went & got the POA & gave it to my husband. It will now be secure in our safe. For those of you who expressed a somewhat harsh view of our situation, I've only given you a thumbnail sketch of it. Please know that we consulted 3 attorneys about FIL's situation & were given the advice to have this POA. Again, my husband showed it to his dad, went together to his attorney who explained anything else to FIL, then the papers were signed. At no time did we "force" him; just expressed our concern because my husband is all the family he has & often he wasn't given proper medical treatment because FIL couldn't/wouldn't tell doctors everything. I appreciate all your thoughts on this matter & hope it would be a very long time, before my husband would ever have to use the POA.

corrections to last line - not something I would *want* to do, and the "regardless of our history" means mother's and my history. Time for another coffee, I guess.

My mother is not a trusting person - to say the least. She was in her 90's before she had POA and a personal directive drawn up under pressure from her financial advisor, and others, who explained that it was in her best interests. I am named on both of them. I have never exerted any pressure on her regarding these matters, as I knew I would only increase her opposition and cause her to trust me less. Also, frankly, I did not want the job but was willing to do it, if necessary. In fact, at one point, she mentioned to me that I was the only person who had not pressured her. I did hold my ground very firmly when she wanted to make my sister co agent on both these documents. I refused to take it on if that was what she wanted. and I have good reason for that, as she well knew. I advised her lawyer why I took that position, and eventually mother agreed. My sis is named as back up which is fine with me. The documents were left in the lawyers office. As mother's mental health declined, I communicated with the lawyer and after one such communication she (the lawyer) advised me of my responsibilities, and sent me an original (also, as needed, notarized copies of the documents) and urged me to act.

I have some difficulty with the poster's situation. The POA and health proxy should be drawn up at the instigation of the person (the donor) whose interests are being protected. Others may advise and even pressure that person to act in their own interests but, to my mind, it should not be drawn up by someone else for their own convenience. "We needed the security that people would speak directly to my husband for answers on various matters". This is not the purpose of these documents.Even though it may take some persuasion and possibly a difficult health situation or two to alert a senior that they need this kind of protection, it should be done by them of their own volition. I am not surprised, having described your fil's personality and the circumstances of drawing up the POA that he is suspicious. The aim of this was to meet your needs primarily. not his, not that his interests could not be served by it. You must have his "buy in" to make it workable. It should be his lawyer, and he should have been in control of the contents and wording of the document. I see this very much as a control issue between your husband and his father, and any coercion will just lead to more distrust.

The second issue that I see is the combining of financial/business matters and health matters. Frankly, it kind of makes me wonder why you did it this way. if your main concern is advocating for your fil on health matters then a health proxy or similar document is the one that should have been drawn up. I think that separating the two is important. Your fil may be more comfortable with you having a health proxy in your possession that the document you had drawn up. I would be, and I am a relatively trusting person though practical and realistic. You do not need a full POA to be informed about your fil's health. And if fil is competent you really have no business in his business.

A third issue I see is the question of your fil's capacity/competence. Many POAs are activated when the donor becomes incapacitated according to the assessment of a couple of doctors. There has been no mention of incapacity on the part of fil, so, logically, there is no need for you to have the documents. Mother named me on her health files as next of kin, so hospitals called me when she was admitted if they needed any information. Also I could call and enquire about her when she was in hospital. That and/or a health proxy sounds like what is needed if, indeed, fil wants that. As he is competent, he has to right to determine who gets information, health or otherwise, about him or who does not get this information.

As to him and the family "stuff", you really have to let that go as much as possible when you take on the job of caring for a parent, which you appear to want to do. You are to be commended for that. It is often a thankless task, and fraught with conflict when the parent has the type of personality your fil has. Quite likely one day he will need a family member to act on his behalf, and it doesn't look like there is a line up if people willing to do that. My mother has a personality disorder which makes dealing with her very difficult and the last couple of years has been like walking through a mine field, to get her the help that she so obviously needs. A few mines have been detonated along the way, but no fatalities so far. ;)

OK! Where to go from here?

If it were me, I would sit down with fil and possibly a trusted-by-him third person, like his attorney, and describe what your concerns are. I would also let him know that you understand his reluctance about having such a powerful document in the hands of others, as it is not needed at present. Ask him if he thinks it is wise for a family member to be able to discuss health matters with his doctors. Describe to him the possibility of a stroke or other scenario where he becomes incapacitated and needs family to act for him, health wise and business wise and discuss with him what is needed on paper for him to have that protection. If he does not want that protection you cannot force him to have it. I would be inclined to tear up the other document and have him and his lawyer draw up what he wants and needs.

Good luck. It sounds like he is a difficult person to deal with and then these matters are sooo touchy!

@loo I have considered withdrawing too, but won't unless something extreme happens to me. Relinquishing mother's fate into my sister's hands is not something I would not to do, regardless of our history.

Vstefans -- yes, it's difficult and rocky to trust people who have shown at times that they're not 100% trustworthy. Sometimes it resolves itself when the person becomes more mature, and sometimes not.
CM -- this goes to your question about why POAs don't decide to resign -- I have fantasized at times about resigning as my mother's POA, and have crafted a statement to her that was comforting to me, but which I'll never use. Something like, "I'm happy to withdraw myself and let you turn everything over to 'brother and his wife,' if you would be happier with that arrangement." But she knows better than to do that. If my brother and his wife were willing and capable, I might have offered that suggestion to her a long time ago.

I never even had a key to my house until the neighbor who called 911 for my mom when she fell gave me one. But my parents, and my cousin, at least had the sense to give me copies of the papers we would need for me to have in an emergency.

On the other hand, I will admit to not quite fully trusting my kids with my credit card and bank information yet. One of them did abuse the shared gas card more than once and we had to discuss that more than once; they have been totally appropriate with our express pay at Walgreen's though. It's hard. I posted a long time ago about what do you do if you don't trust your family members...

Linda22 - it appears from the OP that undue pressure, an illegal form of persuasion, was used to wring the POA out of the old boy.

Read between the lines. :)

CM, good point that someone who doesn't want the obligation can resign it. Authority granted not only under POAs but as Personal Representative and/or Trustee can be terminated by resignation of the individual to whom the power was assigned. I actually recall preparing a trustee resignation letter when I worked for one of the big EP firms.

Ronnie, I think your point that POA is given, not taken, is well made, even if this particular post has passed that stage. But the other side of that coin, of course, is that POA as well as being rescinded can always be resigned; and it surprises me - I can't speak from experience - that more people don't take that option when the person they're acting for is uncooperative.

Yet another note to self: thrash this one out thoroughly and ahead of time with my children!

Ronnie, her husband has already been made the POA for his dad. The son is simply trying to make sure he can do what he may need to do FOR his dad in case of emergency. My sister and I are both Mom's POA and when she was ill last fall, I cannot tell you how much it helped me to have that little paper in my hand. I've needed it countless times since to get her proper care.
But I do agree with others that they should explain to him that he is free to withhold the document and take his chances when he becomes ill or injured.

A person agreeing to a POA may also unilaterally rescind it at any time, either by destroying it, in which case it no longer exists, or by assigning another POA at a later date making another person his or her POA.

Again I say, back off!

POA is granted by the individual concerned and not assumed by anyone else.

You do not have the right to have POA if your parent deems otherwise.

Back off.


Elder abuse may be construed if you pursue this line of doubtful enterprise.

Good advice ba8alou, my mother treats me the same way k4rose's father in law treats her husband and for no reason. I will honor her wishes and keep my distance, forever. Her lawyer or my brother will have to deal with her. I will not touch her business with a ten foot pole. After all, these elderly folks (and that would include me) need to realize that it is no easy job " doing for them". They should be grateful a son or daughter wants to take care of them unless that son or daughter has a bad history.

This IS my story. Same darn problem with my mom not giving us copies, keys, etc. I've talked to her til I'm blue in the face AND an emergency did happen and I had no authority and she was hauled 3 hrs from her home. I had to drive 5 hrs to her house, turn the house upside down cause everything was moved and hidden and then drive another 4 hrs to get to her of which afterwards she re-gained her mind and that invalidated the DPOA. Won't give us copies of anything.

The bottom line is, what happens if the house burns down and all that stashed cash, legal papers, bank statements, investment papers, etc. go up in smoke too...it can be a long time to have to obtain copies or mail overtime to recreate. Secondly, if the elder didn't sign a DPOA, AMD, will, etc. in the attorney's office or filed a signed copy with attorney, he can't help you with unsigned copies. That is what happened with me when I checked with her attorney to see what he might have on her behalf. AND hopefully you even know who the attorney is.

If your loved one is unconscious, again, how are they going to tell you where to locate documents, keys, etc.

I have over the last year and half slowly gotten some info out of my mom --enough to know her banks, etc. But she has yet to give me a copy of any papers, keys, etc. I'm 57 and don't even have key to the house.

When she passes, it will be a mess and a burden on me since I live so far away and work full time. I dread the day when I will have to use up leave time to turn the house upside down to find papers, etc. it's ridiculous to put your loved ones thru this unnecessary burden.

Luckily my in-laws have given us copies of everything and update us annually on any changes, including having a safe box and gave us the key. We will do same with our kids.

I agree with blannie, and speaking from experience -- this job is hard enough as it is, but when you don't have the complete 'buy-in' (the faith and trust from the parent), it multiplies the difficulty and stress enormously. My mother is much worse now, but even 4 years ago, when she added me as a signer on her safe-deposit box, she refused to give me the second key. And I live 3 hours away, what would I do??? Drive all that way to raid the safe deposit box, which has a few important papers, and some teething rings that I don't even know who they belonged to??? At the time, I acted completely fine with her decision, in order to demonstrate how little I cared about the contents of the damn box. But if someone doesn't inherently trust you, then no amount of demonstrating your trustworthiness or competence will matter.
Now, when the time comes, I will need to go to my mother's house, and find the key. Assuming it's where I think it is. It may not be. Who knows? It's one more layer of b.s. that she couldn't care less about, but is leaving me to deal with.
If I knew then what I know now...

I agree with telling FIL if son can't have a copy of the POA, you're not comfortable with the set-up and FIL needs to find a new POA. FIL sounds like a person who has no interest in his son or son's family, so I'm not sure why son should jump through emotional hoops to help out his dad.

Frankly, I'd cut ties with the guy from what you've written. At first I thought he might have dementia, but it sounds like he's always been "self-contained" as someone else said. If my own father didn't trust me to keep a POA copy, I wouldn't let the door hit me on the way out. But that's just me.

Ok, I'll play devil's advocate for a second, here. You say "We needed the security that people would speak directly to my husband for answers on various matters."

You need the security? No: surely, it's your FIL who needs that security. And if he instead chooses to shoot himself in the foot by granting your husband POA but then preventing him from using it, why not let it be FIL's problem? Wash your hands of it.

You could ask him, I suppose, if there is someone he would trust better to act on his behalf. It might concentrate his mind on what the POA is for: namely, to help HIM.

AustinOakland makes a good point. When we were looking for lockboxes at the big box stores last year we also looked at combination locks in which the combination can be changed. Lock stays the same, only the sequencing of the combination to open is changed.

Regarding the changing of the locks when a tenant changes, I would suggest that FIL have the locksmith install the lock as a master/submaster keying. FIL and your husband keep the master key. Tenant gets a submaster key only. Locksmith can then rekey for a different sub, leaving the master the same. That way, dad doesn't have to change his keys and the house remains secure with a new tenant. Should cost a little more on the first setup of the system, but no more for changes later, and it gives you the comfort that your key will always be working.

We had to have a certified copy of POA for banking issues; went to attorney's office, he gave us a signed copy and we took it to the courthouse to have it certified. We're in NC; perhaps this approach will work for you? There are so many instances in which you may need it.

There may be something else going on here, and I suggest it because I've gone through the same thing, on a different issue.

Despite having enough DIY experience to handle some repair tasks, as well as contracting out other jobs, my father feels that only men, from his church, can and should handle those tasks. As a result, some of them get done, some don't. He won't agree to hiring the tasks either. These aren't cosmetic issues; they're ones of safety.

I've become so frustrated over this position that it's sometimes lead to complete exhaustion as well as higher levels of anxiety, not to mention conflict. I finally decided that I can't fight this intransigent attitude and won't let my own health deteriorate any more because of obstinacy and/or stubbornness. So I back away and when an issues arises, I just say "well, call someone in the church."

I'm wondering if this same kind of "dig in the heels", stubborn resistance isn't an underlying factor with K4Rose's FIL. He's obviously a strong willed man and doesn't compromise. Yet he's creating anxiety in his son and DIL who are trying to think ahead and provide for him. Is this deliberate or subconsious, and is it representative of manipulation and/or controlling behavior?

This could be simple manipulation, or it could also be reflective of a refusal to release any kind of control at all, albeit something that could help him.

Without criticizing anyone's suggestions, I would strongly recommend against substituting any unsigned or conformed copy for the original. Getting into the house without having current keys would also fall into that category, even if K4Rose and her DH feel it's an emergency.

I think surreptitious substitution that would only increase and entrench FIL's attitude. And if there is an emergency, it's better to call the police and/or fire department and let them break down the door. There's nothing he can do to them except complain. It might even do some good because he'd likely be advised by the responding emergency personnel that he should have keys, and other emergency arrangements, provided to and made with his own family.

Maggie, as to whether or not an attorney can hold and act under a DPOA, I believe this is possible and do have a vague recollection of seeing this in some documents, but it wasn't common, and I wouldn't want to say for sure w/o doing some research. It may also vary by state. Sorry, I just don't have enough knowledge to firmly say an attorney can or can't.

Attorneys do act as Trustees though, which gives them a lot of authority, so common sense would suggest that they could hold DPOA power. However, common sense doesn't always prevail in life.


Honestly, I think K4Rose's situation is an intractable one. FIL isn't going to budge; DH and K4Rose will probably always be in a position of trying to help him when he won't cooperate.

Sometimes the best thing to do is play his game, call his bluff and tell him that unless he agrees to cooperate (provide current keys, conformed copy), DH doesn't feel that he can perform the duties expected to his own level of satisfaction. Situations could occur when he couldn't act under the DPOA and blame could be assessed against him - i.e., if he's willing to act, he needs to have the documented authority to do so, IN HIS POSSESSION.

Bluntly, throw FIL's actions right back in his face. Know though that I don't make this suggestion lightly.

K; Can he be convinced to send a new key to his son when he changes the locks? Oy, he sounds like a very self-contained person. That's lovely, until something happens to him. Very tough situtaion.

pamstegman,The POA were had drawn up include health situations. Oh, to be clear, my FIL owns his house & rents the top floor as an apartment. So, he changes keys to the front door when he gets a new tenant. Breaking down the front door would cause a liability to the tenant. But, yes, if need be, in an emergency, a broken door & the repercussions from the tenant would be acceptable.