My question really is: If an elderly person's psychiatric records prove (and document) that the person was mentally ill and/or delusional at the time that they changed their estate plan, can the changes to the estate plan be invalidated upon proof, even after the elderly person has passed away? What is the process to get the proof and then have the changes invalidated? My severely mentally ill and delusional dad changed his part of my parents' long-standing estate plan. Because the standards in his state for proving mental competence are very low (does the person know their name, address, phone number, have a sense of time and place--- basically a mini-mental test), his estate atty did no more than this cursory check, which he passed. His atty was unaware that my dad was under psychiatric care at the VA in his city. Had she legally been required to also have 2 drs certify his mental competence, in addition to the mini mental test, and/or to have him seen by a Psychiatrist to assess his mental functioning or checked with his Psychiatrist, I believe that my dad's atty would never have allowed him to change his part of my parents' estate plan. He unsuccessfully tried to change my mom's part of the trust, but legally couldn't because she had already passed away (and even if she had been alive, she had dementia and wouldn't have been competent to agree to the change). My dad has been very successfully able to hide his long-standing mental illness and fairly recent delusional behavior from non-family members. His atty remembered him from 8 years previous when my parents had changed their estate plan and when my dad wasn't delusional. Even at that time, he had hidden his severe mental illness from her. So, she appears to have just gone on what she knew about him before. Given his pathological lying and his ability to manipulate and blindside people, it appears that he did this with his atty and she allowed him to change his estate plan. In my opinion, when someone in their 90s suddenly decides to change their estate plan, this should raise all sorts of red flags in an estate atty's mind. And, whether or not it's required by law to do so, the estate atty should do more than just a cursory mini-mental test and should be go the extra mile to contact the elderly person's drs to certify the person's competence and should also seek to find out if the person is currently or has been under psychiatric care. If not, the atty should request that a psychiatric evaluation to determine mental competence be done. Until drs and a psychiatric eval have certified an elderly person's mental competence, the estate atty should allow no changes to the estate plan to be made.
After years of hurt and frustration, I no longer care. I keep my distance and carry on. You see, Narcissistic, mentally unbalanced people see things through a distorted window. There is little you can do, especially with the narcissistic behavior.
I think you have to step back and remember, these are material possessions and it is the loss of a loving father that is the true tragedy here.
Re: your question about my buying the items of sentimental value: Even if I offered to do that, based on things that have been very clearly and consistently stated to my dad's trustee by the beneficiary group and communicated to me through her (trustee), they want to keep the stuff no matter what and have absolutely no intentions of selling the stuff to anyone, including me. And, even if they were willing to sell the items back to me, a part of me says why should I have to buy back stuff that is rightfully half of my mom's estate that was left to me and that belong to me by virtue of them being part of an estate that I inherited? My dad was a god in the beneficiary group's eyes and they're tenaciously holding on to the things, even though it's been explained to them why I'd like to have the things and their significance to me. Their attitude and clear message to me, including the trustee's, has been "tough crap for you, just get over it." Not surprising to me since my entire experience with people in that city, in general, over the 8 years I was involved in things with my parents has been rudeness, disrespect, disregard toward me based on my dad having made slanderous comments about me over that entire period. I confirmed my suspicions that my dad was doing this way too late-- damage to my reputation already done, which given that I don't live in that city wouldn't have mattered except for what has now resulted in terms of my obtaining these items of sentimental value. While I explained to several of my dad's associates at the time of his impending death the situation that led to my having to detach from my dad and they expressed shock, these people, most of whom are in the beneficiary group, basically have minimized my feelings. It's a matter of them either not understanding the magnitude of the situation and the emotional impact and trauma or simply not caring. The pervading attitude (and maybe the culture) in that city appears to be that non-residents of the state and city are looked on with suspicion and as outsiders, an attitude reminiscent of attitudes and actions you see or hear about happening to outsiders who venture into rural areas in the deep South or rural mountain areas (e.g, Appalachia). This city and the state are in neither of those areas. So, bottom line is that there's not much I can do but to cut my losses and move on, unless a certain situation comes up. If this situation comes up, my atty will pursue legal action which would include, but not be limited to, presentation of the authenticity certificate for the one lithograph. She feels that we have a case, but wants me to lie low for now because I have more to gain and will come out farther ahead by laying low and letting the items of sentimental value go.
1. Re: your comment about how
Re: my dad and being a loving father: He did consistently show me love in my youth and at times into my young adulthood. But, it became increasingly less frequent by the time I reached my mid-30s, and hardly ever in the last 15-20 years, with nothing at all in the past 8 - 9 years. As they say, "Elvis left the building" and the person my dad ultimately morphed into these last years was a complete stranger to me. I long ago mourned the loss of the kind side of the father I knew in my youth and can't mourn this stranger who recently passed away. Unfortunately, this stranger and his pathological behaviors, having been in residence in my dad's body for so long, have overlaid any good memories of the other man I once knew. I think this anger part of my grief, exacerbated by this estate situation, isn't as much a grief for my dad, but more a grief over loss of good memories our family shared, which existed even though they became less frequent as my dad's narcissism became more entrenched. And, while I had gotten to a point late last year where I could say I no longer care, just as you've done, this last death of everyone in my nuclear family which has left me as its sole survivor, has hit home made worse by losing ties to good memories that these tangible items represent for me. But, I just have to now work really hard at letting this go and realizing that these are simply possessions and that the more/most important things in life are good mental and physical health and the people in one's life.
You're right that narcissistic people see things through a distorted window and, this distorted perception then impairs their decision making ability, something I consistently saw with my dad, and perhaps something you're seeing with your parents. And, you're also right in that there's little that can be done when narcissism is involved. It's a no-win situation for a family and only leads to heartache and bad consequences.
1. 1. Re: your comment about how an assistant AG could do anything to me from a distance: Given that I wasn't a suspect in my mom's alleged abuse, the assistant AG's threats and accusations were simply an auxiliary bullying and intimidation tactic for her own narcissistic benefit. I realized from the beginning that she had nothing on me and that at the worst this would be civil matter, meaning that she couldn't extradite me to her state. However, given her position in a high level state office and given the inclusion of elder abuse and meddling in an elderly person's affairs, with elder abuse and elder issues such as exploitation being a hot button item, there was no way in hell that I was going to risk legal complications. Given my dad's mental illness and the fact that he had already crossed the line with his false statements to legal authorities and his having previously crossed a similar line by reporting others in his life who made him angry to people whose positions require that they file reports to legal authorities, APS, etc, there was a very high risk that my dad would once again do this with me. My atty warned me of this on the basis of her experience in elder law and warned me of the potential legal complications and the associated potential very high legal costs. And, while I couldn't have been extradited, the assistant AG/AG's office would likely have continued to contact me (harassment that my atty said she'd go after them for it they did this) and, there was also the risk that if I went to visit my dad, once in their jurisdiction, I could be arrested especially because of the high likelihood that my dad would either contact legal authorities about my visit or would tell staff at his facility who would then contact the authorities on his behalf. So, my atty strongly advised that I keep a low profile, which I did by detaching from my dad. From my perspective, when any aspect of elder abuse and exploitation is thrown into the picture and threats and accusations are made by someone in a high state office, I listen to my atty and take no chances, even though the results were that I was written out of my dad's part of my parents' estate.
2. Re: your comment on the value of the art pieces: Unless they were worth tens of thousands of dollars and were of museum quality, which none of them are, from my perspective if I had intention to sell them even after going through the hassles of appraisal, I highly doubt that I'd get what they're worth. Yes, to me sentimental value is more valuable than monetary worth. But, I also have to look at it from the perspective of whether or not my kids and grandkids would even want these art pieces if they were passed down to them and if I'd have enough room on my walls to display even half of them. So, while I'd like to have them for their sentimental value and ability to enjoy them whether on my wall or in a place where I can just go and look at them whenever, I also have to realize that in the bigger picture and after I'm gone, they may not have that same sentimental value to my own heirs. However, I would have liked to have had the choice to decide this. But, it is what it is and I just have to come to terms with what my dad did by leaving these family items to non-family members and his beneficiary group's disregard and disrespect for my position as my family's sole survivor. Life is unfair and there's not much any of us can do about it. I can take comfort in knowing that one member of that beneficiary group, my dad's financial adviser, understands my position and very pointedly told my dad's trustee, others in the beneficiary group, and me that she strongly feels that no matter what my dad's and my relationship was, every one of those items he left to the beneficiary group should be given to me on the basis of their place in my family and my being sole survivor. But, the law prevails, my dad legally changed the estate plan, and it doesn't matter what his financial adviser thinks. She could try to talk to her co-beneficiaries, but she really doesn't have much say or exert much influence in the matter.
Greeneyedmom: I agree with your statement about attorneys and difference between legal and medical competence. The fact that my dad was very, very adamant that I not be allowed to see his trust and his trust and estate atty strongly protecting it from my view, even though my atty can legally petition the court and they will order the trust doc to be released to my atty, something just doesn't smell right to me here. Perhaps the atty is unscrupulous or maybe my dad was unduly influenced and the atty knows that, but I have no way to prove anything, especially since I'm not allowed to be privy to my dad's trust. These situations and some attys just muddy the waters. But, if all that was required of my dad's atty was just the very minimum, there's not much more that can be done unless the situation that I've alluded to in other posts crops up and my atty then pursues things.
She can certainly discuss/consult with an attorney. However, attorneys only give the first 30 minute consultation for "free"-----after that, they charge an hourly fee. So, for the attorney to review things & discuss them with her, she is going to have to pay to have an attorney do that. Attorneys don't work for free, even if they're not retained.
Trying to track money is extremely difficult, especially in a situation like this. The money isn't "dirty", like from drug sales or illegal gun sales, etc., so a court isn't likely to order that the mistress's bank info be revealed. If she is keeping cash in a safe deposit box, it is nearly impossible to find that. People hide assets all the time. I don't know how much is involved, but if there is a significant amount of money, & it has been put into an offshore account, good luck. It will NEVER be found. Even if it were put into a bank account in another state that would make it exceedingly difficult to find. That would also complicate things because the state that the money is in may have very different laws that the state that the lawsuit is commenced in----and she may need another lawyer in the state that the money is in. People are very clever when hiding assets.
I am only saying what I know from having a fair amount of legal experience in civil litigation. A lawsuit like this could take many years, hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, & a lot of anger, frustration & aggravation. She'd need a private investigator, usually one that the law firm/attorney works with on a regular basis, and they can command as much as $500/hour.
As angry as she may be about the mistress, who she should really be mad at is her father. Did she or her mother know about the mistress when he was alive---did they see money being taken out of bank accounts? Did they question it?
Many times, it is easier to just FORGIVE. It has to do with taking the high road & being okay with what happened. Her father cheated on her mother, & of course she has the right to be upset about that. However, she can't address this with her father because he's gone. Going through a long, protracted lawsuit that will likely cost several hundred thousand dollars in legal fees that they won't get back is probably not worth it. Sometimes you just have to move on despite the circumstances. Beating a dead horse get tiring after a while.
Again, I suspect there is a sizable amount of money and assets here. That is the reason your parents had their own trusts, with pour over trusts, etc. People with moderate assets don't do that.
As you went on to further explain your situation, you said a lot about your father's NPD & BPD but only mentioned the "tangible items" in a general sense & that they hold good family memories. If you don't mind me asking, what are the tangible items you're talking about that you don't want the beneficiary group to have? Of course, you don't have to say what they are, but I am just curious. You mention the lithograph a few times. You said that your mother's antiques were thrown away from the storage unit.
There's a lot involved in your situation.
I'm still out here, but nobody has updated this thread in awhile. My parents' family trust was set up such on the death of the first one (in this case, my mother), the bigger trust would be split off into a decedent's trust and a survivor's trust in which the total estate would be split equally down the middle, with half going into the decedent's (deceased person's) part of the estate and the other half to the survivor's own trust. My father did this, but because I had had to sever my relationship with him because his NPD and its associated pathological lying and other bad behaviors had led to an Arizona Assistant Atty General in Tucson, AZ, falsely accusing me of things my father had lied to her about me, threatening me with criminal prosecution on the basis of his lies, and effectively barring me from my mother and being with her at her deathbed, my father named a different trustee for his survivor's trust. His estate attorney in Tucson who had drawn up an amended trust for my parents 7 years prior, didn't bother to test my father's mental status, only a very rudimentary check of his cognitive abilities (i.e., what's your name, who's the president, what's your birthdate-- all of which he could answer), saying she remembered him from 7 years previous, but didn't account for mental changes in that time span (plus my NPD piece of sh*t father had always been very adept at covering up his mental illness and manipulating people into believing he was the victim). As a result, the estate attorney allowed my father to split the trust. However, he also claimed things as his own that were either solely my mother's or co-owned. Then, the trustee got her attorney to send me a collection affidavit indicating that I owed a big sum of money for accrued income due to my father's beneficiary/beneficiaries from my mother's estate (decedent's trust). I enlisted the help of an attorney in Phoenix, AZ, that I had had to hire to deal with the BS from the assistant atty general in Tucson. We found that my father and his financial advisor had violated the terms of the trust and had invaded the principle of my mother's estate-- basically, they had breached their fiduciary responsibility to my mother and me to protect her assets. As a result, my attorney told the trustee's attorney that I was very seriously considering suing not only the financial advisor and his client (i.e., the person my father had named as the trustee to his survivor's trust), but also his entire estate and I would win in light of the breach of fiduciary responsibility and his changed estate would be invalidated. The trustee's attorney, realizing that I would win, dropped all effort to get me to pay the accrued income. But, he stated that I wasn't entitled to any of the tangible items, which was BS since the items were co-owned by both parents, meaning that I was entitled to half of those. There was alot of lying and hanky-panky going on with beneficiaries, financial advisor (who was named the beneficiary of my parents' tangibles, yet lied to me and gave many things away to others), my father's sleaze bucket CPA who had been robbing him blind, etc, etc, etc. Basically, the MO with people in Tucson, AZ, is not only lying and corruption, but bullying and intimidation tactics and preying on a person's ignorance. Extremely rude people there who all can go straight to hell as far as I'm concerned! My hatred of all things related to Tucson, AZ, goes very deeply and intensely. Anyway, my attorney was able to get me some of the tangibles, but we decided not to pursue a lawsuit on the breach of fiduciary responsibility because, in the end, it would have been a costly endeavor, I didn't want to have to return to Tucson for a hearing (I hate the place enough to never step foot in that shit hole again), and I had actually come out way ahead-- not only in terms of the financial aspect, but also in getting a number of my mother's tangible items. But, I can absolutely understand where you're coming from. While I wasn't dealing with family members, my only sibling (a sister) having died 20 years previous to this whole thing, I had to deal with thieving, opportunistic associates of my father who exploited the hell out of him. If I had wanted to pursue that line (at a big financial cost), I could have likely had all of them either locked up as the criminals they all are or have sued them for everything they were worth for their exploitation. But, it wasn't worth the investment, both financially and mentally, to do this. Since there appears to be a limit on characters, I'm going to continue my comments, relative to your situation, in another post.
Thanks for the info about the YouTube video. I'm going to check it out. Interesting perspectives about NPD people and cognitive deficiencies-- not surprising, though.
1. Did your father change his trust and write you out or is it that the family members are doing underhanded things and that you're still named in the trust as the beneficiary/heir to that 90K and other things? And, if your father changed his estate plan, do you have a suspicion that he was exploited into doing so? If you believe that your father was exploited, whether exploited to change his trust or do things with the money that weren't in his best interests or benefit or in violation of the trust, in general, an attorney may be able to investigate this and help you sort it out. Depending on where your father lived, exploitation laws may be very strict with really high penalties. This is the case in Arizona. My AZ attorney told me that even a person who drove or attended the meeting with an estate attorney in which the trust was changed could be considered part of the exploitation. So, these are things to discuss with an attorney.
2. Have you hired an attorney? If not, it would be a good idea. Get an atty who not only deals with estates, but also is an elder law atty or has a great deal of knowledge and experience in the area of dealing with the elderly and this sort of estate hanky panky.
3. Have you looked at the terms of your father's trust (i.e., the version that was in effect at the time of his death) or had an attorney do so to determine whether any terms in that trust were/have been violated by trustees and family members?
4. Do you have access to see the actual trust accounts (i.e., the money in the accounts and the investment and withdrawal activities)? If so, go through them very, very carefully (or have your attorney or an accountant do so) to make sure things (i.e, activities on movement of the moneys) are on the up-and-up and that there was no invasion of those accounts and your 90K.
5. Are you able to look at your father's trust document, itself, or did he direct others to keep it hidden from you? My father did the latter and his trustee tried to tell me I had no rights to see his trust. However, both my Phoenix atty and my husband's and my own estate atty (locally in the town we live in) told us that this was BS. Both attorneys told me that I have every right to see a will, trust, etc. My Phoenix atty told me that she could petition the court to hand it over and they would rule in her favor and she informed my father's trustee's atty of this and that she would petition the court if necessary and would win. The trustee's atty acknowledged that he knew this would be the case and he talked to the trustee asking her to just send me a copy of my father's changed survivor's trust. But, for some reason, my atty never petitioned for it and I never did see the terms of my father's individual trust. So, if your father's trustees or family members are withholding his trust documents from you, have your atty petition the court for them so both you and the atty can look at these documents.
Ultimately, though, because the tests of testimentary capacity (i.e., cognitive abilities and whether a person is mentally with it) are very rudimentary and basically worthless according to my Phoenix atty, if your father's estate atty determined he wasn't cognitively impaired (even if he really was) and therefore had the right to change his estate and write you out of it such that he gave that 90K to someone else, you probably won't get it back. Basically, it was his money and he could leave it to whomever he pleased and do with it what he pleased. But, if he didn't change that part of his trust and you're still named as the rightful heir/beneficiary to it, then you probably have a case to recoup it. That's why it would be good to hire an attorney to sort this all out and explain things to you. In my case, though, since my mother was initially mentally unable to have changed her part of the overall estate plan to write me out (she wouldn't have done this anyway) and then because she had already died before my NPD father changed the estate, I was still legally named her beneficiary at the time my father changed his part of the estate, and the terms of the decedent's trust (i.e., my mother's part of the estate) legally had to be followed-- even though the trustee and my father's corrupt, opportunistic associates and beneficiaries tried to spin it and work around it. Unfortunately, they got away with some stuff. But in the end, I actually came out quite a bit ahead, getting some things I hadn't even expected. And, once I got what I wanted and my attorney said I likely wouldn't get everything and it could become extended and expensive and possibly open some cans of worms that I didn't want to open, I told her to close out the case.
So sorry to hear that you're going through this. It's bad enough having an NPD parent, then having to deal with the hanky panky of others. Very maddening!