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Dear Paul, I think that a large part of your personal problem is simply accepting that your father is a very nasty man. Self-obsessed, stupid, a liar, a taker etc etc. My mother took us kids when she left my dreadful father in 1952, and back then there was no high-minded nonsense about not telling it like it is to the kids. I was brought up knowing that he was a pig. You were brought up to think your father was the Angel Gabriel, and your problems are still lingering.

You have more than paid back any favours your father ever did you. Stop paying! Don’t go, hang up, and DON’T WORRY.

PS Of course I had other problems, like being forced to be pleasant during court-ordered access visits. Thirty years later I read that this is apparently a good training for being a lawyer or management consultant – my jaw just dropped!
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paul: Yes, I know that it wouldn't be a good time right now. That's why I called it irritating. Prayers...
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Paul,

I wouldn’t see the point of communication with your dad or brother at this time either. I get it.

You have hit your threshold of being bothered with their behavior. I don’t feel like you expect them to act differently. I don’t expect anything different from my family either.

We all have a breaking point. I hit mine awhile back and I am at peace now because I chose to let go, just like you decided to do.

You don’t need the headache, nor do I, especially at this unnerving time. It doesn’t mean that you don’t care.

I care about my mom and I know that you care about your dad but we don’t have to set ourselves up for the same broken record that never changes.

Time to stop playing that tune! If we don’t expose ourselves to the record we don’t hear it played. It’s very liberating.

Your wife will see the change. Your children will too. Mine do. My family and friends have told me that they see the light in my eyes again.
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Paul,

I do feel like you are ready to surrender. It’s futile to continue in a relationship that is harmful to us. My blood pressure was elevated when I dealt with my family members. At least limit the time spent. I have to avoid triggers.

Even an unpleasant phone conversation can be an annoying trigger. Why put yourself through that? I’m not going to anymore. If we desire to check in periodically, that’s enough.

When something becomes too heavy, sooner or later we end up dropping it. The load became too heavy for me to carry around and I let go. I think it can be a conscious or unconscious decision.

It’s like a past relationship that wasn’t all that good for us but it felt like we really loved that person or had an obligation to them.

When the relationship ended it felt odd at first, our mind goes to, ‘what could have been?’ But then we felt free and happy not to be annoyed by them anymore. It’s just that simple. We can’t see it until we have stepped away from it.
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Barb - Yeh I know. I am just awful at doing this. He says something and I can't help it.....

Got to work on it....
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NeedHelp - yes I feel like that. Every conversation I have I dont want to be there....

Sometimes I look at him and I dunno.

I have had enough now....
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Paul,

That's what happened to me too. I had enough. I wanted to spend time with my family and friends. I devoted so much time to my mom and I hated that it was all dumped on me. I did the most and I was appreciated the least.

It got under my skin to hear mom praise my idiot brothers. Like you, I had enough and decided to start living my life differently. I didn't want to have regrets of not spending enough time with my husband and daughters. I gave so much to her. I needed time for me.
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Paul, we all have buttons that can be pushed by those close to us. You know, those buttons that brings words out of our mouths that we don't want to say?

Your dad raised you. He "installed" those buttons. Getting them uninstalled is a process, not a one off.

The best way I know how is therapy, but that's been discussed here before and it seems to be a non-starter for you. So I'm going to suggest being prepared.

Write up a bunch of notecards. One says "hmmm". One that says "silence". One that says "gotta go"...and some other neutral statements.

Practise in front of a mirror or the camera on your computer. Relax your face and shoulders. Imagine you're on a beach in Florida with a cool adult beverage in your hand. Practise not hearing the provocation in your father's tone and language. Look at a card and read the response. Repeat.

Keep the cards handy for his next call, if you decide to listen.

Putting the phone down on the table and not listening is okay, too. This technique is an alternative.
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I was taught by a 5 year old. Back when we split up, the soon-to-be ex liked to call (and bring up crap when supposedly visiting the kids) and push the buttons. It is just nature to want to defend oneself or respond, HOWEVER, if I can do it with encouragement from a 5yo, YOU can do it too!

The scenario:

Locked out of our house, staying at my parents' house. Once everyone was out, gone to work (I was on off-shift then), he would call, sometimes waking me. He would start the button pushing and get me to argue. My daughter, then 5, was standing next to me and calmly said "Why don't you just hang up the phone?"

I stopped, looked at her in amazement, and said what a great idea, why didn't I think of that? I hung up. Of course, he called right back, just to be a PITA. EVERY time since then, when I feel that urge to fight back or respond, knowing that it will lead to argument, I pause to make a decision - argue or not. Answer = NOT. One time the pause, brief as it was, was enough for him to ask if I was going to respond. By then, I composed myself and replied "No, because if I do, we are going to get into an argument and I don't want to argue." He went ballistic! At that point, I calmly hung up the phone and took it off the wall (that prevented listing to the phone ring!) Stupid as he was, he actually brought the police to the house, upsetting the kids, on the pretext that I was the problem. After he left with the kids, I did ask the officer to stay and asked him why.

Eventually the crap was reduced, but only because I refused to play the game. Even later, when the kids were older, he would try to get my goat, and argue. Nope. Did it still irritate me? Sure. BUT, I did NOT allow his behavior to influence mine. (Adding my kids were 3 and 5 at the time, so I had to deal with this for a long long time! Nipped in the bud, for me anyway - he could continue his crap, but I refused to play the games.)

Leaving the phone on the counter/table, mumbling ummm hmmm a few times, a few "sures", "whatevers", etc, but don't react. It takes effort, sure, but it is SO worth it.

You also need to focus on what's important in your life and resist the urge to anticipate what he might do or plan. What he does, he does and will continue to do. Why waste time and energy on that? Work on tuning him out when you do interface, work on not responding/reacting to what he says, work on not giving him ammo to shoot with.

Use that extra time to hug/take care of the wife (hoping she's better every day!), reaching out/interfacing with the kids. BANISH him and his antics from your head. Nothing you think, do or say will change his behavior (or brother), you can only change your own. Banish thoughts, practice non-committal responses, agree to everything, do nothing!
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I feel your pain. I am in the exact situation. My dad is so selfish. Even though our state is in lockdown mode my dad doesn’t seem to see the seriousness of the situation and how our economy is going to tank. He wants to move out of his independent living apartment into a condo and hire a cook and a cleaning lady. it’s insane. He’s 94 years old. He’s in the best place for him. I am so tired of humoring him. He makes a list of things that he wants me to do for him even though we are on lockdown. I have tried the same things. Nothing works. I love my dad but ....I keep thinking that we will have a good karma. At any rate you are not alone.
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Peacefulness, I'm kind of chuckling at your Dad's plans. No offence! I'd be seeking peace too with such a determined schemer handing me lists.

Move from one apartment (with cleaning & meals I presume?) to another apartment with cleaner & cook.

The benefit to him would be what exactly???

My Mum has her little schemes too. I just go hmmmm, I see, riiiight, ok. I wait for the "YOU have to..." No, I won't be doing that. Change subject.

It is draining.
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ha ha thanks all. Yeh I am awful at doing this.... He says something and stupidly I reply....

I am getting better honest. I have managed to not say things now during a phone call and let a lot of things go.

I've realised its pointless getting mad because it just upsets me - he doesnt care!

He is clever though. NEVER loses his temper or let it get into an argument. That would be easier. He knows how far to push and knows he needs to keep me onside a little. i.e. Have a go at me but not get into a raised voices argument.
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Yep, it’s part of the plan! My mom did the same thing as your dad. She would stay calm too. You’re fine, Paul. You know where he stands and you know where your priorities are.

Take a break from him when you need to. You don’t have to speak to him every single day. Keep the conversations brief when you do call.

Since my mom moved out I have only spoken to her briefly a few times. I called this week and had a short chat. I am like you. I don’t expect her to ever change. It doesn’t even matter anymore.

At some point, we have to stop wishing or hoping for them to be different. I accepted it and feel like you have too. It took me being away from mom to realize certain things.

Otherwise, it’s weird. Seeing her daily was a reminder of what she wasn’t ever going to be. I have no contact with my brothers. Don’t plan to resume a relationship with them. Nothing in common.

My brother has wonderful sons. They are nothing like him. He can’t take credit for how great they turned out. They have a terrific mom and she deserves the credit for their character. I am close to my nephews. I am godmother to his oldest son.

How is your wife’s knee? Is she in a lot of pain or relatively comfortable?
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paul: It's human nature to reply. You are not wrong in doing so. Prayers. My mother sometimes made me angry.
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Paul - I just realize that your dad is a master at pushing boundaries and buttons, and then playing dumb. No he's not dumb at all, he's very clever.
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Yes, people’s behavior can be very clever!

A friend of mine who has so much trouble with her mom who is always scheming things. Her mom forgets that she has revealed how she ‘tricked’ her three previous husbands and many others.

So when she tries to pull the same trick on her daughter, my friend tells her, “Mom, you got away with that with your dead husbands but you can’t pull that trick on me.”

The ‘playing dumb’ thing is a very old trick! My mom tried that all the time.
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Yeh Dad is clever. Sometimes I have a conversation and afterwards think "you sly old dog". He always manages to turn things around to what he wants.

Not always - there have been many times when things have been so transparent its become obvious what hes playing at. That does make me laugh....

Wifes knee is going ok. Week now and it seems be going well. 12 weeks off work but shes trying to volunteer to go back in a few weeks to do something sitting down (remember shes a nurse). I just hope she doesnt go back too soon - she does do this!
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Paul,

So glad that your wife is doing well. Yes, she shouldn’t go back before she is ready. She does need to heal. I am sure it’s very frustrating for her.
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Paul, your father is not a "sly old dog". You shouldn’t “laugh” when it’s “become obvious what he’s playing at”. Or be impressed that “Dad is clever”. There’s much too much respect in those reactions, as well as affection that he does not deserve. You need to reread and believe your own complaints about what he has done to you and your family for years. I will repeat that “a large part of your personal problem is simply accepting that your father is a very nasty man”. Think about it again.
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"This young lady is a teacher. She is a graduate from a respectable university. Her father is a dentist, and her mother also a teacher. These are educated and intelligent people."
and
"What was her reason for ignoring all advice..."

Two possible issues there...
- someone can be book smart/educated, but be incredibly stupid otherwise.
- many people ignore advice, laws, rules, etc because it won't happen to them!

Hopefully she wasn't one of the infected but no symptoms who would pass it on to the elders...

Ya really can't fix stupid (having pols be stupid and not warn or accept what was happening or about to happen doesn't help, if those are the ones they look up to.)
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Margaret,

It is sly behavior. It’s clever too. It’s acknowledging his behavior in a sarcastic way.

Plenty of people use techniques like Paul’s dad. They play dumb when caught. We all catch onto their behavior. My mom did the same thing. Paul is totally aware of his dad’s behavior. He doesn’t need to reread the messages.

He isn’t complementing his dad or respecting his behavior. I get exactly how Paul feels. I saw the same thing in my mom’s behavior as well as some of my friend’s parents.
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paul: So glad to hear that your wife is doing okay. Yay! "Sly old dog" -oh my gosh.
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All - yeh I guess the hardest thing is for us (hopefully) "normal" people to reconcile what others like this actually do. Most of us would never ever attempt to do this....

Wife doing OK with knee. Bit of a setback yesterday, she stumbled and nearly fell, hit her other food. 3 Hours in hospital yesterday, badly broken toe that needed to be manipulated back in place, so thats all strapped up too.

She was howling down the stairs yesterday am shouting saying "I think I've broken my toe". I just shouted back "yeh right, April the 1st!"
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Paul,

Oh my gosh! That must have hurt. Ouch! Geeeeez, not a fun way to spend the day.

April1st. I get that you wouldn’t believe her. Hahaha
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Oucheeeeeee , Paul. Your poor wife! Poor you!

Take care of her, and you. Leave dad be. >>>>>>>>((((((hugs)))))))))).

(That's a socially distanced hug)
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Yeh her toe was like 45 degrees out of shape....

She didn't want to go to the hospital. I had to make her go!

Hospital was quiet. One door to go in and no other people allowed in.
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"...broken toe..." been there, done that - while on vaca in SC many years ago. not much they can do for it. i had to drive home (2 days with layover) with that, standard shift AND a bad case of hives from a bee sting 2 weeks prior! on top of that, mother too (she was a PITA even then, well before dementia.) SHE made the trip even more miserable - I can deal with the pain and the serious itch, but not her behavior...
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paul: I hear that about your wife's toe being 45 degrees out of shape. Then she fell - oh, no! So when I had to go out of state to take care of my mother, I had a "Hammar toe," which is one toe that crosses over the one beside it. No sleep and pain for 6 months! ...until I could get back home to have surgery. It was rough. Good luck to your wife.
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After some adult beveridges in my 20's & some Fred Astaire dance moves with a friend (we thought so) I sort of hit of the floor & slid until the wall stopped me. Two toes went one way, two the other, the middle one a head-on.

Even with the bevvies, it was painful!

Sympathy & tea for your wife.
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Beatty,

Ouch!!! But it was fun until you hit the wall. LOL
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