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jasmina - tell me about it...... Lets just say my opinions on this and my brother and Dads opinions differ MASSIVELY.
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Hi Paul, Did you read this morning’s post that ended: “At some point, we have to realize people are always revealing to us who they really are. Takers will keep taking, but it doesn’t need to be you that gets took.” Good one!
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margaret - where was this post?
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My Dad certainly does not give up. Never seen such dedication to getting what he wants!

Spoke to him last weekend.

"Are you coming up next weekend? I hope you can, its fathers day and I've got no food"
"Yes Dad I plan to. I am on call though so I will have to confirm with you on the day".

Tuesday
"I really hope you can come Sunday. I've got no food and xyz (brothers GF) is ill this week" (saw pics on facebook of two large beer sessions but there we go!"
"Yes Dad, we already discussed this but remember I'm on call"
"Can't you cancel on call?"
"No Dad"

Wednesday
"Im really going to be stuck if you don't come Sunday. I've been stuck in all week so you'll have to take me out too. If you don't come I wont have any food. You'll have to come even if you're on call".
(more lies hes had meals on wheels all week, I know hes been out and I know brother has done shopping for him".

Got to admit I exploded this time. Had enough of the constant badgering and guilt-tripping.... Its all the time now. He'll mention something 50 times if he thinks he get it to sink in even more.

In the end I told him, that for about the 5th time, I plan to come but I'm on call. It is out of my hands what happens. If I'm up all night or in the middle of a call out, I won't be coming - end off. I also said, I've mentioned home delivery about 10 times - if he chooses not to accept this then he can **** well starve......

Hes not happy....

Not sure if I have the patience or energy to continue like this..... It is sort of working with the NO thing but he just won't give up. Please tell me he will stop soon....
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Sigh.

Paul, suppose you do get called out from Friday night to Monday morning. Your father won't starve. You know he won't starve. HE knows he won't starve. Heavens! - even if the huskies can't get through and there literally is no food in the house, nor in any of the shops and takeaways and pizza delivery companies in the area, and he didn't eat all weekend, he would still not starve. He'd get jolly peckish, but he'd be fine.

So this "you've got to come, cancel everything else, the cupboard is bare" riff is just that. It's a riff. It isn't a real conversation.

The element that is real is that he would like some attention. And given that it is Father's Day, whatever one might think about cynical marketing ploys, it's not unreasonable on this occasion to think that you might perhaps want to set some time aside for him.

Of course I understand that you'd be a lot more disposed to want to if he didn't give you earache all week. And you'd have thought that he might realise that, too. But you know he doesn't realise that. He thinks nagging works better.

How likely, in percentage terms, is it that you will get down there at the weekend?
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CM - yeh of course I know its a ruse by him....

As you say thats just it, I planned to visit him anyway.

There is no need at all to nag me about it. He occasionally says things like "can you make a big effort". That REALLY annoys me because its telling me Im not making an effort anyway....

5% chance I'll get called and be unavailable. Hes done it to me before though, after being up at 4am one day he still expected me to visit him. Now I just overplay it a bit.

I've got to point it out to him every time though and do over play it a bit because otherwise he ignores me. To be honest, it does go in one ear and out the other mostly though.

I'll have my daughter with me. He'll want to know why daughter is with me. Wife is away on sunday (she never goes away) - off to london to see fleetwood mac. I'll just tell him shes working.

Otherwise, I'll get a lecture about how women need to stay home with the kids, not go gallivanting across the country willy-nilly. Then it'll be I should put my foot down and tell her, and if she doesn't listen I need to make her listen (I dread to think to be honest!).

If I say shes working I'll get 5 mins about how women didn't work in his day, how they think these days they're something special and how women need to be taken down a peg or two sometimes....

Ha ha I can predict it. You can see why visiting is not a great experience!
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Sigh again.

It is NOT a ruse. A ruse would imply a logical train of thought with a method and an end. There isn't one.

It is a motif, an itch, a bone. It is a game in which he can engage you. He wants attention, and this works because you reliably, obediently join in. But you're treating it as a real conversation with a purpose and meaning.

You haven't got to point anything out to him at all. You might just as well save your breath. Whether you go or not will be in no way influenced by whether he has hoisted in a single word that you have said to him. Stop doing it! It will feel wonderful.

If you're 95% certain that you will in fact be able to visit him without difficulty, just go ahead and tell him you'll be visiting. If the 5% should turn up, against the odds, you can deal with that when it happens and explain after the event. It won't hurt him.

You are thinking "as long as I've explained that I'm on call and may have to change my plans, that is fair and the onus is on him to understand if I can't make it." But this is a complete waste of time! - not to mention proven again and again not to work. If you broke your leg or got caught up in a terrorist incident, your father would still not "understand" as in accept your no-show and be gracious and sympathetic.

Importantly, this is not a fault or misbehaviour on your father's part. He is a sick, lonely old man. It is not reasonable to expect him to take an unselfish, rational, proportionate view of things.

Stop Expecting Your Father To Accept A Fair And Reasonable Train Of Thought.
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You can't tell him your daughter wanted to see her Grandpa? Or even...

Man enjoys spending time with his daughter. Now that really would be a revolutionary idea.

As you say, you'll get the lecture whether you tell the truth - wife is off having a nice time - or lie - wife is working. Your father is a bore. Don't engage in the discussion. Or tell him she's left you (don't really, or if you must for heaven's sake don't say that in your daughter's hearing - children are very literal-minded and you will traumatise her).

Nothing like as badly, but my Dad did have his little hobby-horses, shall we say. Most of them were funny or harmless, but one or two... one Sunday lunchtime I ended up banging a dish down on the table and snapped "Do not burden my children with your prejudices!"

It is open to you to criticise him right back if you've a mind to.
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Hes has not interest AT ALL in seeing his granddaughter. Its all about getting me there unimpeded lol...

I've ignored him, I've tried to nicely tell him not to get involved, I've angrily told him to keep out of it and mind his own business.

Always his excuse is "you know me, if I've got something on my mind, I've got to say it".

I'll never forget his classic (which I've probably mentioned on here) when we told him wife was pregnant last time (she was 40).

He said (in front of her as well) something like "whats the matter with you two, why are you having another child, you're too old and they cost money!".
You can see why my dear wife can't stand him!

For weeks afterwards he nagged and nagged and wanted to know why we'd chosen to do this. He even asked about 4-5 times if it was an "accident". Jeez boundaries!

Of course, 6 years down the line I realise his main issue was that here was a distraction in my life which would cause me to lose focus on my real job (in his eyes) which was HIM.
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I don't think I said anything about him wanting to see his granddaughter. I suggested she might like to see him. And I hope that's true, and you're encouraging her to view him positively so that she's looking forward to the visit. Apart from anything else, approval is hard to resist and she might win him over in spite of himself.

By the way. If he does or says anything that she finds hostile, you leave immediately without fuss or anger, telling her that Grandpa clearly isn't up to company today.
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Yes I do try. But he doesnt even acknowledge her so its hard for a 6 year old to have a bond when shes ignored.

If I take him out, we occasionally go to a country park. I go there because theres a coffee shop, ducks, play park, so Dad gets a ride out and daughter gets to go int he park etc (after being so good sitting in car for another 30 mins).

Dad moans constantly and gives his opinion. Like - "she doesnt need to go in the park", "leave the park I want to go home now". Its ANOTHER battle to try and get him to understand that if I've got a child with me hes going to have to do something she likes also.

Last time I dumped him back in the car, with him moaning "dont be long - 10 mins max". So I left him for 20 mins. He then moaned and groaned all the way home (30 mins) about how my daugher "needed to understand she can;t always do what she wants".

As you can imagine its hard. After recent events though, if hes says or does anything hostile it will be ending sooner rather than later as you suggest.
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If dad starts badgering you, just warn him- Im hanging up now. If he continues which he will; You have got to back it up. Hang up on him. Dont answer if he calls back. You are the adult. He is acting the child with no boundaries. You have to teach a child they dont get what they want. Life isnt like that. Dont answer calls for the rest of the day. Dont answer brother's call either. Dad will push him to control you too.
Dont feel bad you did it. You need to teach him how to treat you. He doesnt care he ignores your boundries or common decency.
Id only check in with him 2-3x a week if hes constantly bugging you about food, going out, doing his bidding etc.

If he started complaining he doesnt get to go to the park. Or he goes immediately home. Dont put up with that. Or that your daughter should come last.

If he said nasty remarks about you, your wife or child leave, hang up, walk away. He has no right to say those things. You have to put a stop to the narc thinking he can do whatever he wants.
If he starts complaining about the same thing every day via phone call- say thats enough. Ive heard it before, Im done. Im hanging up now. He continues then do it.
You woudnt tolerate that behavior from a coworker, wife, friend, or stranger. Stop it from him. You need to stop thinking he's my dad, I cant. Remember when you feel guilt, that your dad has no problem running over your boundries. He doesnt feel guilt at all. He's acting on the mental maturity of a 4yr old.
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Paul, emigration is an effective strategy, though it doesn’t get your washing done for you. Discuss it with him?
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would you want to exchange places with him ? he could be reaching out for someone just to truly care about him and his problems. i don't believe that he wants sympathy,he may just want to know that someone truly cares about him .
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Margaret - Confused... My washing?
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sonny7. I do care about him and his problems and do whatever I can.
Would he like to exchange places with me where its a constant battle balancing needs of everyone? Probably not.
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Thanks Jasmina.
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Well Sunday didn't go well....

So phoned him, yes I'll be there, "what shopping do you want me to get?"
"Oh I don't need much, (gives me a list with about 8 items on it) I've got meals on wheels booked all week".
(Argghh you've been nagging me all week telling me how desperate you are).
"Dad I'll get more - You've got a huge freezer you can put a lot of this in. It'll keep for months (he likes frozen tv dinners and was insisting I buy one or two)"
So he kicks off and moans. I got 12 anyway. Im sick of him deliberately emptying his freezer so he can play the no food card.

Gets worse. "So are you coming at 12".
"No Dad - I'll be there at about 2pm". (I'd previously invited him for lunch and he refused, "it'll be too busy").
"No I want you to come at 12"
"Dad - Remember I'm going for lunch".
"Yes but its fathers day, you should be putting me first, you can have lunch another day".
"Dad - yes MY KIDS are taking me out, because I'm their FATHER".
Silence....

Honestly, if it hadn't been fathers day yesterday....
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Sonny, the difficulty with that is the definition of "really cares."

Paul's father just wants to know that someone really cares. Just? Know? Really cares? What do those all mean in practice?

Paul's father is a depressive, a career complainer, a black hole of negativity. He is a bitter and disappointed man, and he does have some reason to be - maybe a few more reasons than comparable men in their eighties - and in addition to that he is old and he is ill.

But it is not possible for Paul or anyone else to care about him in a way that he would accept as proof that they "really care." In his demands, Paul's father sets Paul up to fail.

So in placing his personal boundaries Paul has to set SMART goals instead, and aim to deliver on those. What he has to forget is the lost cause that his father will be... happy.


For those who missed the infinite joys of corporate life in the eighties and nineties, SMART goals are:

Specific
Measurable
Achievable
Realistic
Time bound
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CM - Have you ever worked in IT? (The SMART thing).

Thanks for the support here. You're right.... Although he has no reasons to be more than anyone else his age. His health is not that bad, hes got a social life, family who see him etc.... He could be worse. As you know, my wifes a DN and the stories she tells me of old people ignored by families, stuck at home dying etc.

Always the problem though and I get it. "Poor dad", "all he wants is someone to help him", "we'll all be old one day", "put yourself in his shoes".

That was my problem. I listened to these people. With the help of people on here, I dont listen as much now. I'm not that good but I'm getting there.
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Paul, this is a case where comparisons are odious.

The fact that your wife regularly encounters people who are having a SH*T time does not mean that your father is not having a rough time.

But neither does that mean that you can make it all better. I am very glad that you are gaining more and more perspective.

SMART got everywhere. I last encountered it as part of a module on working with NEETs on a Child Protection course. At least it made more sense and was less cringe-making than publications like "Who Moved My Cheese?" but I don't think it reckoned with Young People's ability to take the mick.
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""Dad - yes MY KIDS are taking me out, because I'm their FATHER".
Silence...."

Paul, you made him speechless!!!! Love it!!!

He apparently thought he was the only dad. He thought of no one else. What a surprise!

I think it was a good thing that your dad turned down the lunch offer. If he had gone out with you all for lunch, he would have ruined it for everyone. You, your wife and kids would not have enjoyed your time together. I recommend you NOT extend the invitation next year. Meet him separately.

My mother has mid stage Alz. It is difficult being in the same room with her hearing repeated comments and questions every few minutes. My kids can not tolerate that. So, I try to not have them together unless there is no other option.
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Know EXACTLY how you feel. I'm caring for my father who has begun a rapid decline with his end stage heart failure. He's been referred to hospice. So, from at one time being in your shoes, to now having a father who is actually dying, I can tell you it does not get any better or easier. I work full time and have a child as a single mother. When I take off of work to help him (unpaid) he makes no attempts to reimburse me for my lost wages. Let's just say - I'm in the hole financially, now. I have some bitter resentment but still a feeling that I owe him because he's my Dad. Today I called in a sitter as I can no longer go without my pay. He didn't like it, but I think agreed just to push it harder in my face that he won't pay me to help - I should be FREE. I wish I was able to live for free in life. That is not my plight, however. To top it off... I'm the sole heir. I just don't get why he won't help me help him. I'm also the POA. So frustrating. I really don't want to hate my Dad in his last days - but he's killing me...
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If your 75 or over even in the best of health chances are you have deminished capacity. imagine someone with a brain degeneration. But the brain is weaker does not mean it's unable to learn.
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Paul, I sent you a message about the washing - check your profile. Odd, but not totally bizarre.
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margaret - how do i reply to messages? Do you have to turn it on at your end?
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Polar - I've noticed he does this a lot recently. Tries something on then backs down when I call him put for it.

My wife was working anyway - but there was no way in a million years she'd have come with him. Can't blame her either!

He does this a lot. I invite him somewhere - doesn't want to go. Then few days later hes moaning that he never goes anywhere! Drives me crazy....
As I've always said, a lot of it with Dad is control - he likes to be in charge. If you invite him its your idea. If he says "visit me on sunday" hes in charge and likes you to jump.
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Progressing - that must be so tough for you. Losing money as well....

I think sometimes they use it as a "test" to see if you'll do it to be honest. My Dad does.... Hes the same, his excuse is always "can't you spare time for me", "it wont cost you much".

I don't get paid either when not in work but he still expects me to take a day off to take him to hospital rather than pay £10 for a taxi. Im fortunate to earn decent money so its a fair bit more than that I lose! I've even offered to pay but no - so its a test I think to see if I come through. (I dont btw).

Seems crazy if the money is going to you anyway as well. Dad is like that too. Theres two of us though. Dad has got approx £30-40K in the bank but I've never seen someone so tight. Brothers car broke down and he couldnt get to work - Dad gave him £300($400) for a new car! What hes keeping it in the bank for I'll never know...
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Paul, to message someone you click on their icon/avatar (eg M), and their profile comes up with a place to send a message. Best wishes.
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mikkimball - exactly. Nothing,... His house is a mess but he wont spend money on it....

His excuse is always "We were poor when I was younger so I don't want to waste it now".

To be honest, he likes not spending - not spending makes him happy for some reason. I always tell him "You can't take it with you" but its in one ear and out the other.

In reality, hes got so much he could never spend it all....

I've told him time and time again if worse comes to worse the government will take this money off him for a care home. (Thats how it works in the uk, they will take you're money if you have it). So not spending it and doing without things is crazy!
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