I've posted before about in-law care-giving. Aged mother in law, lives in same town.
We are at the tail end of a visit from sister in law from several states away. Sister in law has been here for 3 weeks caring for her mother. A much welcome respite.
It had been discussed, prior to her arrival here on the scene, she would be talking it over with her mother, to try and get her mom to come up to her home, for a stay of maybe a few months.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely essential, as I am expecting twin grand-children, due in about 1 month (if they don't come sooner, as is the case a lot of times with multiples pregnancies). The expectant mother also lives locally here, and has a 4 year old daughter. I will be on that front, helping .. as much as is needed. And not on the front with mother in law and care-giving, and have made that as obvious and apparent as I know how to make it. It would be great if mother in law would agree to go to her daughter's home (several states away) for a period of a few months .. and allow me the latitude to put my energies where I want them to be, on my daughter who will have had a c-section .. and my grand-daughter (4 years old) and new twin babies.
Nothing doing. Mother in law has dug in her heels, and will not hear of it, going to stay with her daughter for any period of time.
What are her reasons?
In mother in law's defense ... her daughter ... I don't even know how to describe it. I will say that when her daughter comes here to visit, she all but breathes for her mother and if she could find a way to do that, she'd do that too. She is the most nervous nelly, never sit down - ever ... worry wart, do everything, all the time .. person that I've ever encountered.
A great example, as I was taking her to the airport yesterday for her departure, . I reached into the fridge to grab myself a bottled water and shut the fridge and turned to walk away, as I've done for all of my 50 plus years living on this earth .. and she said to me, "Oh make sure that fridge shut". WTH???? Like I don't know how to shut a fridge? That's just a small, very small slice of what she is ... how she is.
She is so very hyper-vigilant, seeing to every minute details down to it's finest most minuscule point, fine tooth comb, questioning every point along the way, "should we do thus and so, but maybe if we do thus and so, then such and such will happen, maybe we should do it thus and so .. but then so and so might happen, maybe we shouldn't do thus and so, but do "x" "y" and "z" instead, but if we don't do it that way then ..........", on and on and on and on it goes. And usually in hyper warp speed, as to every single friggin thing.
If her mother moans .. "what's wrong mother?, why did you moan, are you alright?".
Mother: "Yes, I'm fine, I was just sighing out loud".
Sister: "Why did you sigh? Are you hurting, are you sure you're alright, why are you sighing what's the matter?"
Mother: "For God's sake __________________, I was just sighing, .. calm down, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, .. because if something is wrong you need to tell me".
Mother: "Everything is fine, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, we did a lot yesterday, did we do too much, maybe we shouldn't of gone to two doctors in one day .. was that too much for you, are you too tired now, maybe we need to move those other doctor appointments so we won't have two in one day, is that too much for you, for one day .. is that why you were sighing .. what's wrong, are you sure you're alright".
Hopefully that kinda gives a little bit of a snapshot of what goes on when sister is in the ring directing things.
So in mother in law's defense.. I do get it, why she wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go to her daughter's home.
BUT ....
The only experience she has with her daughter, in the last years as mother in law has aged and been unable to go anywhere much, has been the daughter coming here, periodically, for periods of about 3 weeks at a stretch. When her daughter comes here, she moves heaven and earth for her mother and then some, and doesn't sit down, doesn't stop .. the WHOLE ENTIRE TIME.
Is there a possibility maybe (as I said to mother in law, when she expressed that isn't happening - talking to me - her going to her daughters .. ever) .. could it be possible that maybe if you would go to where she lives .. she'd be more busy managing her own life in that setting than your's and she would get out of your backside .. and not be as hyper-drive-vigilant as you experience in her, when she's here, could that be possible.
The daughter is retired, lives several states away. Does come here, generally, every few months .. and stays for a period of about 3 weeks at a stretch. I wish I could make a list of everything the daughter did when here this last time, but it would take up the whole character allotment:
If your father told K that he was going off with a guy to help him with his volunteer project, and she can't go help with that, but they can go to the doctor's office together (by Uber/Lyft), maybe that rewording of the event would help. And you'd be out of a volunteer position.
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Call to find a ride near you 1-800-227-2345. In some very big cities, Lyft is providing the rides!
So this is an additional appointment each week? Are you volunteering to take him to those labwork appointments, also?
How long does the chemo take? And are you going to stay there or just pick him up when he's done?
If you can take him without K, fine. Tell him you are not going to take K, too, and then have to wrangle/herd her, put up with her attitude, etc. He'll figure something out if he has to.
Regarding MIL and the showers, sounds like SIL is handling that from afar. If she isn't getting results, she can get your H to step in (of course he won't). Just listen to H complain with "Uh, huh" and tune him out.
You are absolutely right. They will not release you to just anybody! Maybe if Chemo is being done in the oncologist office and they are lax with their rules. But not so in a hospital setting.
Should K be having a bad day and repeating herself or causing a commotion no way, no how is the patient getting released to her.
I know this for a fact. Chemo wasn’t involved. FIL and Dementia Step MIL. ER run for FIL. Time for release hours later. Hospital would not release FIL to Dementia Step MIL.
Yes she drove him to ER.......
Yes MIL can refuse a shower..if someone can be there to encourage her to accept the shower that would put SIL at peace.
K would be a hot mess going with dad. They may even call security on her, who knows? Dad's not the only patient, and in my chemo 'pod' there are signs that clearly state that PEACE AND QUIET are expected--this is not a spectator sport and please keep 'support group' to only one or two adults. Competent adults.
Best case scenario, it's stressful. It's scary. They place an IV and start the poison flowing and you don't KNOW what's going to happen this time. Are you going to throw up all over the place? Are you going to burst into tears? Emotions are all over the place. the LAST THING I'D WANT is some crazy old woman poking her head into my sickness.
I know Dorker has said she's on the periphery, but she's still involved. My comments about food and such were meant to simply educate her as to what should be available to dad. If she doesn't want to procure them for him, fine, but somebody should. And take time to educate him about it. Don't know if the hospital does it, mine was supposed to and let that slide--it would have been nice to know that ALL the stuff that was getting to me were NORMAL side effects.
Time for a paid CG to take dad to chemo? His schedule sounds more intense than mine....Someone taking K away for that time would be great. My hospital will NOT release you to an Uber driver. You have to have made post treatment arrangements.
I really feel for you--Dorker--as much as you do not want to be involved--you are. As a fellow empath, it's actually PAINFUL to watch people flounder about making no choices, or worse, terrible ones. The desire to step in and just TAKE CHARGE is powerful and we don't WANT to be in charge--we just want people to just not be so stupid. (Sorry, that was harsh, but I have been involved in too many 'failed' efforts of help to not feel a backlash of anger when someone has begged for help, I've stepped in and they sit there like lumps, waiting for my to make it all be OK).
You CAN hang out on the periphery, but it's really, really, really hard.
As for MIL's nonshowers. We have had this situation with my mother. Usually one of the staff will mention to my sister (the local daughter) that Mom has refused showers. This will prompt my sister to cajole Mom and to point out that she enjoyed it last time. If my sister can find out who will next do a shower, she'll sort of do a meeting-of-the-minds among herself, Mom and aide that the shower WILL happen. And it does. The same scenario will happen again a week or two later.
If DH would speak with MIL's caregivers about this, maybe he can arrange for the shower time to happen when he is there. That way he can help cajole MIL into the shower. He could then leave, having done his dutiful son bit.
I just can’t. Good grief. I would guess that showers have been offered and declined, that no one is cackling and concocting schemes outside her room (my FIL said this all the time in MC, and he used the same language MIL is using to describe it), that 80% of what MIL relays as “fact” is probably a combination of dreams and broken brain blending with a tiny bit of fact.
They need to get her assessed. (I know you know that.) They would save themselves SO.MUCH.TROUBLE. And MIL would be better cared for. DH’s time would be much better spent getting that arranged than spending hours listening to MIL do woe is me and coming home feeling like crap.
And they cannot force residents to take showers. That is why she needs memory care. They have the tools to get to yes with people who fear showers (and haircuts... and interaction with others.)
No, I do not think Dorker should break her boundaries that she has clearly set. Transport to and from medical appointments only.
And no, I do not think Dorker should even do that if the medical appoints turn into a cluster F should K insist on going.
Folks with Dementia can be disruptive even to those who understand what is going on.
Some people choose not to enter a debate with someone that does not have a receptive mind. Others, will continue to argue, convince, debate, etc. The continued back and forth is uncomfortable for those around these people.
Now it’s been established there is no person available to be Ks handler during the Chemo appts short of a paid caregiver hauling them to Chemo or handling K somewhere else during the appt.
And no, it doesn’t sound like K will probably be open to anything short of accompanying her husband to Chemo.
Dorker, I am glad you made it clear you can’t tolerate K.
K is not your problem. Apparently she isn’t her own daughters problem. She is your Dads problem. If he wants you to take him to Chemo he is going to have to figure something out.
Unfortunately, for everyone, your Dad isn’t real good at planning for situations upcoming and it sucks for all involved.
I have read the phrase so many times on this site and my DH told me he used it in a work situation lately worded slightly different. “Your piss poor planning does not constitute me fixing your effed up mess”, “I don’t have the time or patience to do things your effed up way, you figure it out”. And knowing my DH and his rough and tumble work atmosphere he probably shot them the finger as he made his exit.
No, this isn’t anything you would do but the principal of the matter is the same.
The whole situation is unfair and it sux that your Dad has asked for your help after YEARS of keeping you at arms length at best.
In no way should you let it wear on you that you refuse to have to put up with the K situation layered on top of everything else. That’s a no brainer! And it’s unreasonable if that is what your Dad is expecting of you. He’s got some figuring out to do!
It suxs that shocked and hurt brother 🙄 has gone MIA. Surely, in the back of your mind given his past, you may have thought this was going to be a possibility.
I know your DH is going through his own thing but it appears you are communicating with him about this mess.
I am sorry that you again find yourself in a situation that takes such a toll on you.
Has anyone else experienced the showering dilemma?
I know not everyone's LO .. had cognitive impairment that isn't recognized and dealt with, as MIL does.
But when I say . she doesn't know one day of the week from the next, . to even recognize . "oh gee, this is Wednesday they will be coming to get me for a shower". Nope .. to count on her, . to have that notion . would be hopeless. One day is the same as the next, . all nameless.
The dilemma seems to be that she goes weeks and weeks w/no bathing.
Now it depends who you listen to .. as to the whole "what's wrong with this picture".
SIL . all up in arms, .. would have you believe the staff don't even ask her. And in that vain .. she has set up tickers on her phone, to call the staff on designated shower days . to prompt them to do their job, and shower her.
It still doesn't occur.
I have told DH .. as this dilemma gets batted about. I guess maybe if she'd talk to the DON . maybe get this issue front and center and get to the bottom of it, I dunno.
Don't know if SIL has talked to the DON.
But the kerfuffle seems to be .. week after week .. a Saturday comes and goes, no shower (her designated day) .. a Wednesday come and goes . no shower (also her designated day). This after SIL has put in a call to the nurse desk, to prompt that they do so.
She asks of her mom later .. "did they come get you for a shower?".
The answer from her mom: "Well no .. I don't think so, was it my day to bathe? I don't think they even asked".
DH and myself, .. have been there, when they offer to shower her, and she declines, and DH is aware of this . and says of it all, all the above .. "They probably do ask her . and she turns them down".
I asked of him, ''Do you know, have you asked, are they charting this, .. 'resident declined bathing' .. and so you know it's recorded, that she was offered and declined?".
He doesn't know. And no, no one seems to take the bull by the horns to find out.
I guess . it's more problematic in that she is so prone for chitapalooza .. and has it most days .. and so . the concern would be the set up in not bathing . for UTI's.
Has anyone else seen this in their LO in a NH? That you can't seem to dial down on where is the gap .. is it that the staff is lax and not doing their damn jobs? Or is it that MIL is declining and that the staff, (there again) needs to be more persuasive and not let her continue to decline the offer?
What is it?
Gets in the way of her ability to process and absorb that she maybe should stand down at this point, and defer to what my dad expresses as his want.
So, I do understand that aspect of it all, and I try to ignore and move with what goes on.
But I also .. being an "empath" as someone defined . .don't cope well with the discord it all creates and the uproar. The two of them squabbling . and her .. pushing me away .. and obviously "resentful" and .. the "knowing" the empath that I am .. that my dad .. will "need" me.
I want to (w/limits) do what I can to be helpful. But I also don't want to subject myself to the constant uproar it creates.
The bottom line is that the doc .. I believe will let her drive when he sees her for follow up from her bypass surgery she underwent. That doc, . likely has no clue, . that her brain doesn't work right. Docs don't generally spend enough time w/a patient to pick up on that, unless that's their goal to begin with. He's more concerned with any possible edema, BP issues, . heart issues and he's off and onto the next patient.
I don't expect, absent anyone informing him on the backside, . that he'll have a thing to say about it, and she will be "released" to drive.
The ball, at that point, is in my dad's corner (it is as it stands presently anyway) .. and he can .. either deal with the fact she shouldn't be driving . and I've given him MO on a number of ways that can take place .. or he can get in the passenger seat and let her drive him hither and yon . and at chemo tx's . he can be the one to try to reel her in .. and keep her from creating issue there on site.
Good luck w/that.
I was talking w/DH about it all, . and pondering out loud . how in the world does my dad put up w/it. He doesn't always . he snaps and barks at her (and he's not ever been one to hold his tongue . short fuse .. really). He takes more than I'd think he's capable of taking. And then he snaps. The difference is . you might see a couple exchanging words . on some topic .. and maybe one or the other finally snaps and the other that was yammering on and on, then backs off . and shuts up . to deal with it another day perhaps .. not so in this case. He snaps . and she just attempts to justify why she is yammering on and on . and on and on she goes w/it.
DH said of it, .. "they've been married a long time, he's probably long since learned to tune her out".
It's very uncomfortable to be around. I'm sure my dad . if I pose to him, ,.. "Gee dad how do you think you'd handle it, if DH was yammering at me, incessantly to the point that I snap at him . and this went on routinely .. and some of it .. the fact that I've asked you to be on the front to help . but him making it known .. HE doesn't want you around, how do you think you'd deal with it, you are putting me in a position that isn't fair to me".
Sure would be nice, if I had someone from the inner circle of all this .. to talk to about it, .. her daughter (who dad defines as wanting a bunch of gone, as regards her mom . who the h377 can blame her). My brother, who is aloof and disengaged from all this.
That's been the long standing pattern of these folks.
I agree 1000% it will be a disaster to have her as accompaniment to chemo tx's. It's already been explained to us there, .. he will have an appt with the MD or PA each time, prior .. and go over lab results performed the previous day (also a requirement going forward each week) .. and any concerns, . and then the cocktail of whatever chemo will be ordered to be mixed up by the pharmacy and wait for that, . then the infusion, which takes a while.
This is all above stepmom's ability to process IMO.
I can see how this is all going to play out, her there in attendance. "B how much longer is this all going to take"
Dad: "I don't know K, .. it takes whatever it takes, they explained to us how this all goes, . they have to go over my lab results, and any questions, concerns in a MD visit, then order up the chemo .. and wait for that, . and then the infusion . it takes whatever it takes".
Stepmom, 5 mins later: "B how much longer is this all going to take".
Dad: "We just talked about that, .. remember I said ..................".
Stepmom, 5 mins later: "B this is taking so long, what's taking so long .. how much longer".
Until my dad blows his cork, as I saw him do .. several weeks ago, .. her daughter there on site, . .and the daughter reminding dad under her breath "don't yell at her, she doesn't remember that she asked you that 5 mins ago".
That's an excellent approach .. the approach where one takes the mom out to lunch or shopping, to occupy/divert her. Assuming that this was a group of folks willing to all work together, that would be such a good solution.
Sounds like, .. the daughter wants a bunch of "gone" .. and so won't be stepping to that role. Stepmom has a sister that lives mere blocks from her, .. and if this were a situation where everybody pitches in .. then maybe that sister would be amiable to such an arrangement. But doesn't sound like that sister comes around a lot, other than to pull in the d/w there .. at her own whim .. to drop off whatever delectable meal she's conjured up (not even exiting her car to do so) .. and one of them go out to retrieve it, and off she goes again, as fast as she came there.
I'll suggest that to my dad as an approach, if he ever answers the email I sent. Since I can't "talk" to him . because she is always at his elbow with her incessant yammering .. (and it doesn't sink in with her, ... that we are talking . and trying to get her to back off a bit . .that's not anything that sinks in at all, she just keeps yammering)... I can't "talk" to him in person . she's right there, w/her constant yammering .. and so I emailed. And I've yet to hear back.
I have only volunteered as to transport to doc offices .. that's it. They have the c'giver that comes 3 days a week, and if stepmom had her way, she'd be gone already .. dad disagrees.
She, SO BADLY wants me out of the periphery on all this. And he doesn't. And getting her, and her demented mind to absorb that and own it, and move with it, is going to be impossible to achieve.
I do know .. that her mindset is born out of .. an old school like mentality .. that wives care for their husbands. Period. That's how it goes. And you aren't going to change that in an 80 yo woman with dementia. I know, .. that in her, that's where it all originates, not out of some place, that I've somehow been a problem in her world, and here I keep coming . this problem child. That hasn't been the case, ever. So it's .. nothing more, really, than her old school mentality of wanting to be the one to care for her husband, period. That's "HER" job.
Her dementia gets in the way of any real realization that she maybe
What Dorker decides, is ultimately up to her. We went through something very similar with my FIL. He wasn’t much of a dad to his kid and chose women and booze over them. Anything I’ve ever asked my husband about his dad, his answer is always “my dad was never around”. For example, I find myself getting after the kids to turn off the lights when they leave the room just like my dad did to us. I asked my husband if he dad was like that too and he said ”my dad wasn’t around”. He’s also said he doesn’t know what it says like to grow up with a dad.
And similar to Dorker’s dad, he was in and out of their lives as adults-he lived 1800 miles away. We saw him once every few years. That was the extend of things. And he was a nice guy. And then he decided to re-enter his kids lives when he was dying of cancer and could no longer take care of himself. Only he didn’t tell anyone that. He moved out here with all of us under the impression it was to help my BIL out and have a relationship with his grandkids. He kept up the charade for 4 months and then it all came crashing down and we realized he was very sick and needed care that none of us was prepared to provide.
It was very easy for me to sit here and get annoyed when my husband started stepping and fetching for him. When he would be in excruciating pain and spending his days laying in bed but yet he’s he’d go to care meetings and he’d go see his dad once a week. He wouldn’t get up to do things with his wife and kids either. And I kept wondering why? Why is he doing this for someone who didn’t give 2 $&ts about him as a kid? I could go on and on asking where was he for this, this, that, that and that. And the answer would be “not around”. So I definitely don’t encourage Dorker to throw herself in to the trenches and go above & beyond for someone who didn’t give 2 chits about her as a child. I had an extremely hard hard supporting my husband and his limited involvement with his dad.
Dorker, I’m so sorry there is nothing but turmoil right now. I can’t begin to imagine the toll this all taking on you. I’m praying for you to find peace in all of this.
"So what to do Dorker, keep putting yourself in the line of fire, .. ??... abandon mission ...???... leave dad to his chemo and how that all pans out . with a demented wife at his elbow to try to wrangle .. and waltz away from it all? What?"
Keep to your boundaries and stay on the periphery that you were placed on years and years ago.
Regarding your YB -- feel sorrow for him, yes, but you are not responsible for his current situation.
Regarding MIL -- she is not your concern -- she is SIL's and H's. Except for her constant whining, she is really where she should be, getting the care she could not get living at home.
As someone wrote here, you are an empath and care too much for other people. Being an empath is well and good until it affects you in a bad way. That is what seems to have happened.
go snooping in his house, and take every pack of cigs he has (a suggestion of her's when the cancer was first dx'd) ..
He now no longer smokes, .. was sick and confined to the hospital long enough that I guess the nicotine addiction ebbed . .and he is no longer a smoker. A day late and a dollar short one might say, but okay.
But anyway . the point is .. I can talk to my brother and Bossy Boots part of the picture, and she'll have all sorts of fantastical ideas . none of them even remotely realistic as to being do-able. So, other than that, it's just the texts to brother (who does yes stay in touch, somewhat, with dad via phone). A brother who is absolutely zero help and disengaged.
I have my youngest brother . down in SW FL . and is being sued .. and likely to lose his business .. and livelihood .. and yes is being represented by legal sorts .. but in the end, there is a now 18 yo but was a kid of 17 years of age, who has lost his legs .. and so .. there is merit in lawsuit .. I'd probably do the same if it was my kid. But my youngest brother .. and all that he saw/witnessed .. with being on site, .. he has dx'd PTSD .. and is being treated for same, but is also pretty depressed .. at the possibility of losing everything.
.............................AND then there's MIL ........... with her incessant, nonstop complaints that aren't going to abate at all. They just are not. Some of them warranted .. some not.
Latest on that front . she hasn't had a shower in like 3 weeks now. Some of that time, she was too sore from the fall, and so showers were declined (she declines routinely any damn way). Hard to know what the true skinny is on it all. Her showers are to be on Saturdays and Wednesdays .. 2 days a week. I guess ostensibly a staff member (CNA) appears . offers a bath .. and it's either accepted or declined.
But I guess the rub is that they don't come and ask .. Saturdays and Wednesdays come and go . and they don't ask (if MIL is to be believed) .. are these things charted? They should be? Who the h377 knows .. I guess not. MIL would have you believe they don't ask her. The staff would have you believe they do, and she declines ..
MIL doens't generally know a Tuesday from a Sunday .. days of the week are lost on her. Not at all a matter that she wakes up on a Wednesday with a epiphany of, "well my my . now this is Wednesday, they will surely come today to offer a shower". Nope. Wednesdays are the same as any other day, nameless to her.
The latest as to any kerfuffle on that front .. is that SIL has taken to putting a ticker on her phone, to call from IL and prompt staff to do their job ..
It hasn't resulted in completing a mission as one would hope. Saturdays and Wednesdays come and go, no shower. MIL asked, "did they come ask you?".
MIL answer: "Well no, I don't think so".
Whatever.
Who knows.
It's just always something, some upset . don't have to look too far . always something in an uproar ..
Yes it torques the chit out of me.
I haven't said anything, and I won't. He's free to do as he pleases, he's an adult, and I do as I please also.
I do, in the interest of keeping peace, ... apprise him (via text) as to the goings on, with dad. Let's remember how my brother lit me up like a xmas tree . when all of this began to explode .. stepmom with emergency bypass surgery .. dad with pneumonia and hospitalized . and how dare I not keep him in the loop "you live there, I don't .. what am I the red headed stepchild down here, nobody tells me anything".
So rather than argue .. I just shoot him a text if there is any update. As I did subsequent to yesterday's appt. I sent him a text, so as to avoid Bossy Boots and her dumbazz comments she likes to interject, that I have zero tolerance for. Texting him (and solely him, much to his chagrin . who has intimated previously that I should loop her in also), avoids having to deal with Bossy Boots. He's informed, which was his gripe .. and so he's informed, of anything that needs to be put out there, that I'm aware of.
He thanked me for the info, and shot back a pic of him .. obviously had been out deep sea fishing and caught the mother of all big fishes.
I responded, "Looks like that was a fun day". I followed with: "If you're so inclined .. dad will have 12 weeks (if he tolerates it) upcoming .. weekly .. of chemo tx's .. and I will be taking him (he doesn't know of all the discord with stepmom . and it wouldn't matter if he does anyway) .. as my schedule allows .. if you're able to, it'd be a great way for you to spend some time with dad and cart him to an appt, maybe reach out and communicate with him".
No response.
Why doesn't dad summon brother into this debacle? Probably for the reasons I'm finding it so distasteful. Why bring brother into it, she always made it known that my brother was a huge/enormous PITA .. (he was .. at one time, the black sheep of the family .. in every sense of the word as he fell into drug addiction and jail . .and homelessness, and God knows what else debauchery, she had every reason to find him repugnant, at one time).
I tell ya what, I could just sit down and cry .. at all the turmoil brewing in every corner. One might say .. "oh don't be sad, be grateful that it's not you with the turmoil .. you don't have cancer, you aren't being sued for everything you will ever hope to have (youngest brother and the ongoing lawsuit with the kid who was electrocuted) .. you aren't stuck in a miserable nursing home at the end of your days and frail and feeble (MIL). Be grateful that you are in a position to be of help .. and not the one weathering these things yourself.
Yea I guess that's one way of looking at it.
But it just .. as I told DH this morning, almost breaking down in tears .. that I'd laid in bed, with my eyes open before coming to life . and pondered all the turmoil in every direction . and it's just .. I guess a feeling of *no peace* .. there is no *peace*. I have the dad and his wife situation where it's pretty plain she'd like me to just go away ... yet he wants the opposite . but getting her to understand that, in her demented mind . isn't likely to transpire. So what to do Dorker, keep putting yourself in the line of fire, .. ??... abandon mission ...???... leave dad to his chemo and how that all pans out . with a demented wife at his elbow to try to wrangle .. and waltz away from it all? What?
Got my brother, who is just about as disengaged as can be, unless I wanna talk to Bossy Boots who will have all sorts of fantastical ideas .. (go take your dad's cigs ...
I hope you will only do your best for what you agreed to do, I hope you will NOT help with stepandfetching and caregiving, which is what you said you will NOT do. You pretty well limited your involvement to driving to medical appointments.
No, your stepsister is NOT going to get involved in driving your father to chemo appointments, just as you wouldn't want to be involved in driving your stepmother to medical appointments. Your father has no right to get annoyed at your stepsister, IMO.
Dorker's H says: "But in talking with DH about it all this morning, his words, 'it may come down to you just have to tell your dad . you're out ... that you're not gonna be a party to their discord .. that she is obviously disturbed by your presence in it all, and so you are backing out, absent any ability at all to wrangle her under control.'"
I agree with your H. It seems that you are at an impasse. You do NOT want to be involved with wrangling/herding your stepmother at the chemo appointments. You also stated you would not tolerate her attitude towards you. So there you have it. They are on their own. Remember, you are on the periphery of your father's life. He is only trying to draw you in now because he thinks he can manipulate you. Why doesn't he try to get your brother to step in?
Your Stepmom going to the chemo treatments is a bad, bad idea.
Your Dad can’t be expected to “herd” her and you unfortunately, just by being present, will be expected to “herd” her by the staff, I am afraid.
My sister went with my Stedad and my Dementia Mom to my Stepdads oncologist appt when he got his Cancer Dx. The appointment was much as you described. The appt was stressful and my Mom made things 100 times worse.
My Dad had passed away the month prior. So in Stepdad’s and my sister’s eyes I was now available.
Anyway, Stepdad and My Sister concocted a plan. I don’t know or can’t remember if there were lies involved or if my Mom was fine with the plan.
”The Plan” was that my sister or I would take Mom out to eat, shopping, grocery shopping, etc whatever it took to keep her occupied while Stepdad went for Chemo. Then whoever wasn’t herding Mom would take Stepdad to Chemo.
When they presented their plan to me I chose to accompany Stepdad to Chemo.
I would hope your Dad might convince your stepsister to occupy Stepmom on Chemo days, being somewhere other than the Chemo appt, if her schedule would allow.
The only thought I have on getting Stepmom to not drive, sadly, is your Dad is going to have to be the one to put his foot down or contact her Dr. Probably not something he wants to deal with right now but I agree with the others, the sooner the better.
Yesterday's spat in the doc office, was absolutely embarassing. Her harranging and harranging . .and even I said to her, at one point, "we have a whole week to work out the details, let's talk about this later" (I was trying to get her to shut up) .. dad had already tried ..
It didn't work, nothing was working . harranging/nagging wife ...
Until she said to me "there's nothing to work out, I'll drive him, you don't need to".
At that, dad snapped .. "K, stop it, just stop it! We will talk about this later, just stop it!".
It didn't stop.
It continued on, in the car, on the ride home, her harranging, nagging .. and dad .. disgusted and trying to grapple with what he's about to undergo himself in the whole chemo piece .. and just . quiet . trying to sort that thru in his own mind and her harranging .. nonstop. I said to her, .. "ya know, maybe for this first visit .. I want to go along in case there are any concerns or questions . and I want to be there".
She responded, kinda snippy tone .. "I think B and I can handle any concerns or questions". I responded, .. "I might have questions of my own and want to be a part of it". To that my dad snapped again .. ."She wants to go K will you LET IT GO".
I emailed my dad last night, A.G.A.I.N. .. citing my concerns as to her judgement and driving . and that I wish he would consider carefully, not riding with her as driver, and further, contact the doctor behind the scenes and work the angle, but that I am deferring to his decision on the matter, and don't intend to get involved.
Went on to tell him, . ."What I won't continue to do is be a party to her wrath for what she somehow mistakenly believes is a threat in my participation ... she will keep on until she is going to see that the Dorker she knew as a child .. grew up a long time ago and can only be pushed so far, before I snap ... I may have been so patient as a child that you guys worried I'd never be able to stand up for myself .. but that long since went by the wayside, .. and she will push me only so far. If you want my help, I will do my best, .. my schedule allowing . to support you in that .. but I won't continue to tolerate her".
I haven't yet heard anything from that email ..
I don't honestly know what he can do with her .. she feels the way she does . and has her demented mind at work .. that somehow sees me as a threat, . coupled with the fact she likely doesn't remember from 5 mins ago, when he snapped at her and told her to let it go, so she rides it and rides it and rides it some more ..
Not sure what he can do about it .. and I try to have some thick skin to be in the midst of it ..
But in talking with DH about it all this morning, his words, "it may come down to you just have to tell your dad . you're out ... that you're not gonna be a party to their discord .. that she is obviously disturbed by your presence in it all, and so you are backing out, absent any ability at all to wrangle her under control".
He might be right. That may be what it comes down to.
Yes, my dad has me in a difficult position for sure.
Maybe he doesn't see it as disconcerting as I do, as he deals with her rankled self hourly/daily. I do not.
Nothing will do in this situation ... until . .one of them goes behind the scenes and gets the doc to put the quietus on any driving . at least until assessed. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen. Or until I acquiesce and say "you got it, .. you wanna drive him . go for it . I'm out". Even though my dad has "asked" of my assistance/support.
I wouldn't of gone yesterday except "HE ASKED ME TO".
I said as much to her yesterday . her rankled and addled, .. and pushing her agenda .. and I said to her, "I was asked to be a part of this .. if he doesn't want me to do so, I will back on out". She then came at from the angle of "B you shouldn't be bothering her, she has enough to do .. now I can manage all this . you need to leave her be
I can't talk to my dad in her presence, and she is ALWAYS in his presence, right at his elbow. If I come over, she is right there. Remember, I am a threat to her ..
I think mostly, for her, .. she's so old school . husbands are to be looked after by their wives, . .that's their charge . their responsibility . .and the threat she sees in me and my presence, is that I'm there to "rob" her of what is her's to see to.
I try not to take it personal ... but it's hard.
As to my concerns and her driving. I have done all I can do. I have expressed to my dad numerous times, while he was confined to rehab and the hospital setting, that I wouldn't feel at all safe with her as driver .. and wouldn't opt to get in the car with her, that I am concerned for him, but not only him, innocent others that may be a victim of her poor judgement.
I have expressed those same concerns to her daughter, ..
I've offered to both of them that it's not uncommon for folks, if they don't want to deal with the wrath .. do an end-around, .. go via the doctor. Offering to them both, also, my knowledge there are OT programs one can be assigned as participant to . and in that, .. the ability will be assessed. If it's deemed she's safe . then well and good, but I don't think that would be the case.
For whatever his reasons . the only approach he has taken thus far, is buying time. As of right now, post surgery herself, . she is to have a follow up with cardio surgeon and in that appt., she hopes to have her driving abilities restored, and the doc tell her, it's okay for her to drive now. The only reason the doc prohibited it before now, is that her chest cavity had been opened up and sutured back together in the bypass surgery she underwent .. that's the only reason.
Is the doctor at all aware of her shortcomings as to her cognitive abilities? I don't know. Would a heart doc pic up on that, .. doubtful. Is she seeing a PCP that might garner that info? Turns out her heart doc . is also her PCP .. double boarded MD.
The only thing my dad has done, thus far, is buy time. "Doc says you can't drive yet".
But the piper is coming to be paid .. when she goes to that follow up visit, at some point . and I don't see it, . sans the doc being notified on the back side, by either her daughter .. or by dad .. that he'll pick up on that .. and maybe direct that she not drive, and/or be assessed. It's doubtful.
My dad's take is that the daughter won't do it (I've asked her to do it, an end-around and call the doc) .. she says no, not with a 10 foot pole. Told my dad of this conversation and his take on it, .. "she's not going to do that, she knows that means she'll have to be here, to drive her mom around .. and she wants a bunch of gone".
Okay dad so why won't you do it?
Every body seems to hang their hat on .. the fact that her driving .. only encompasses neighborhood driving. She only goes to doc visits or the grocery . and none of that involves highways/expressways .. and that much is true.
But that's not to say that a kid doesn't dart out from behind a parked car, chasing a ball into the street . and her judgement skills don't kick in enough to anticipate such an occurrence and drive cautiously and slowly for just that possibility . or that some other vehicle doesn't pull out in front of her, .. unexpectedly .. any number of scenarios . even though it's a "neighborhood" and not an expressway.
I've said all that, and then some!
I even shot an email to my dad last night .. since I can't talk to him in person . she's always at his elbow. And with her around . .. it's the most like a nagging wife .. and I know a nagging wife, I can be one myself. But I know when to knock it the h377 off, and I've said enough (for now). She does not. She keeps on and keeps on and keeps on ...
Dorker does not want to become his stepandfetchit and/or caregiver. Remember, this father placed her on the periphery of his life (and even let her and her brother go hungry because he refused to support them after his divorce from their mother). Some of us on here think Dorker should be very wary of her father needing to "rely on" (words used by Dorker's father) Dorker now. Dorker has told her father that she is not going to become his caregiver. I feel that any step in that direction will very quickly become a slippery slope and that Dorker will be bullied/manipulated into taking care of someone that, quite frankly, doesn't deserve that kind of care from her.
Dorker, I really sympathize with you. I feel your dad has kind of put you in a bad spot, between him and K. It’s kind of not fair to you or her, because he knows how she feels about you. But at the same time, HE needs support. HE needs help. and if he wants and needs his daughter, he has every right to ask you to be there and you have every right to be there for him.
And the driving thing. I totally get picking your battles and choosing a hill to die on. I used to feel the same way about my dad driving until he had his second accident & totalled my moms car. His licensed was revoked because of seizures. He also has undiagnosed (as far as I know) oh what’s the name! The condition where you fall asleep randomly! He’s had it for years. And then as time has gone on, he’s had more health crisis that have led to increased cognitive decline. He’s had no business driving yet.....he refused to stop and no one in the household would hide the keys or stand up to him. The first car he totaled, no one else was involved, he hit a guard rail. 2nd car, moms car, he rolled and didn’t hit anyone else thank God! But again he had no license and new he should not drive. Up until that point, I used to say well it’s his choice. If he wants to drive and ends up killing himself, that’s his choice, not much I can do about it. But then he crashed and reality hit me hard. The third car was his believed vintage corvette worth quite a bit of $$$ and last month he pulled out in front of a woman while trying to cross the highway. Totaled both cars and injured himself. I’m incredibly thankful she wasn’t seriously hurt or killed.
I kind want to urge you to rethink your position on K driving but.....she’s not your parent and you really have no relationship with her. It’s not your battle to fight with the exception of keeping your dad safe from her! I feel for you. This isn’t a good position to be in. I do believe if that she drives and hurts or kills someone with him in the car with her, it’s going to affect you more than you realize. You should maybe strongly encourage your dad NOT let her drive him anywhere. But there’s really not much control you have over this.
But...Dorker is on the periphery (where her father placed her years ago), and she has no desire to move away from that. She does not want to be a part of the arguments between K and her father. She will not be the one to see that her father stays hydrated, that he has soft and easy foods to eat at home, that he gets Miralax at bedtime, etc. Those sound like tasks for someone who is on the scene, or is at least dictating what will be done to the on-the-scene caregiver. She is not going to become his caregiver. Either K will take proper care of Dorker's father at home (doubtful), or the hired caregiver will.
I really do hope that Dorker maintains the boundary that keeps her on the periphery. She only agreed to drive her father to and from medical appointments.
However, I do share your concern about K driving. She will be cleared to drive by which doctor? And when? It's one thing if Dorker's father and K are injured or killed by their own lack of judgment, but quite another if some innocent person/family is injured or killed by K behind the wheel.
But I wonder if Dorker could make any headway with them on that. She wasn't able to make any headway whatsoever in the POA/HCPOA/will issue.
I'm going to weigh in on your dad's care for a minute. Because I am currently undergoing chemo, I can tell you that the LAST thing your poor dad needs is a demented wife wandering around the infusion room(s). Dad will be tethered to an IV for quite a length of time--my first infusion took 5 hrs, and could have taken up to 10. Subsequent ones should be much shorter. BUT my Dh wasn't wandering around the hospital causing problems. K could likely be escorted out. You don't want that. In my paperwork I state that my 'person' is a 'capable individual' something to that effect, which essentially keeps you from bringing the whole dang family and the dog. (dogs aren't allowed).
As far as K continuing to drive--well it's all well and good for dad to say he feels safe with her driving, but what about all the innocents on the road who are just moving targets? Sometimes we have to step in and be the meanies who take away the driving privileges b/c it's one thing if K wrecks the car and it's just her and dad--another whole thing if she plows down a little family. You could not live with that.
K cannot handle watching the chemo. Your dad may become actively sick and he will not feel good and will need a "SAFE" ride home.
Not trying to butt in, but chemo infusion centers are kept quiet, calm and as peaceful as possible. VERY SICK people are there, and while I was VERY blessed to have almost no awful s/e at the infusion, there certainly were patients who were having a rough go. I don't know if my next one will be as 'easy'....and I only had DH with me. He sat quite a ways away from me (didn't want to be involved at all.
I know you don't want to step in the middle of that, and I get it, but you might get drawn into the drama if K insists on going. Having a chemo infusion is not fun, it's something you get through. Period. You need ADULTS with you, not a batty wife.
Good Luck. Make sure dad has soft, easy to eat foods at home. And that he hydrates a LOT. His chemo is his, probably totally different that mine or anyone else's. But a lot of the s/e are the same, nausea, mouth sores, and watch out for constipation!! That's an almost for sure. Make sure he gets Miralax or some such fiber additive at bedtime.
My dad's appt today. The gene that has to be receptive to the Keytruda immunotherapy (all this stuff way over my pay grade)has to be 50% or better. His was 3%. Thus Keytruda as a single option . not available.
He will have to opt for a combo type chemo approach, and that is to commence next week. If he doesn't tolerate it well, .. and there's always that chance, particularly in someone who has been through a lot recently and is already weakened, . then I guess the protocol .. at that point, Keytruda can be administered in combination with a different type of chemo that can be tried.
All of this is to commence next week.
Stepmom was along for the visit . .and if you ask MO .. her dementia in full bloom for view.
There had been talk (my dad had lost a lot of weight, . weight he didn't need to lose) through all he'd been through, but has begun to gain all that back . and some 20 lbs since his illness began. Thus he has an appetite .. which is good. Stepmom . could stand to use a few lbs and has done so .. thru all she's been through. So the talk there in the doc office, among many other topics, the doc trying to get a feel from my dad on how he feels these days .. the fact he has put back on some of his weight . .and that's good. She chimed in and stuck on the weight issue .. wearing that issue out . .when it had already been covered, and we're trying to move on now.
Her, bent out of shape . after the appt . as dad had asked in her presence (she isn't yet cleared to drive, .. IMO . she never should be, ever again .. but not my fight, and if my dad thinks it's okay for her to drive, and him a passenger, go for it .. and yes I realize the ramifications of that, not gonna wage that war). Dad had asked if I could cart him to the next appt .. and in her presence, which undid her.
Remember, whatever her issues are . she is very jealous or possessive .. or whatever, and if I'll just step the h377 aside out of the picture, she'll be just fine with that. My dad asked, I obliged, .. yes I will take you to the first chemo appt.
This undid stepmom .. and I thought the two of them were going to get into an argument right there in the doc office. It really was a sight. To the point my dad raised his voice at her "K stop it! Just stop it! Just, we will talk more about this later, stop it!". Didn't stop her.
I guess if I'd of stepped up at that point in their consternation .. "obviously it's a problem that I'm being asked to do that . you two figure it out .. and I'll just step aside".
But I said nothing ...
It was getting ugly .. his demands that she stop it . were falling on deaf ears. Not the place for it.
Back to the topic of MIL .. and SIL and DH. I don't think DH faults his sister .. I think he knows .. fully .. that his sister tried .. more than the average joe would do in fact. For years.
I think he knows that, and doesn't hold her feet to the fire on his mom's unhappiness.
I think he "wishes" it would've been a matter that MIL would've been amiable to staying with SIL in IL .. and being cared for there .. and/or .. SIL being willing to uproot her life and live in FL and care for their mom. "Wishes".
He "wishes" that his mom's care wasn't such that it takes a staff and institutional setting ergo making her wholly unhappy .. wishes it wasn't so.
But doesn't "blame" his sister .. or me for that matter, that we .. neither one are willing/able to do that role.
Midkid, I feel sorry for your SIL. Why couldn't she walk away from MIL as her brothers did? What does she do for your MIL?
This hits too close to home. My MIL and they way she treats my DH. He rarely sees her, she is just so toxic--this isn't new, she's just one of those people who cannot show affection--and who are totally obsessed with themselves to the point you wonder if they are aware there are other humans out there. She was extremely abusive to DH all the years he was growing up, yet now paints those years as the 'best years of her life'. WTH?? My BIL, DH's older brother moved out the day after he graduated HS and has never really returned.
BIL told me, many years ago, of the mental and physical abuse he and DH suffered at her hands. Horrible. He said in this day and age they would have been removed from the home and placed in foster care. BIL grew up to become a psychologist to try to figure out WHY this was so....I doubt he really has any answers, but he does have a better way to handle MIL.
DH just internalizes whatever she says, and although he'll SAY, 'my mom is crazy, just crazy' he will, in the same conversation, talk about how awful he was as a kid. Now, his mom is aging in place, and I guess not doing great all around (she's nearly 90). All I do is encourage him to try to call or visit her for 15 minutes once every other month. That's a total of 90 minutes a year.
And he can't do it.
MIL is nutty as a fruitcake. She cannot carry on a conversation, she can't accept responsibility for anything she's done or said. EVERYTHING is someone else's fault. No friends, no family around her, except my angelic SIL who deals with all things MIL since DH can't/won't.
Oh, and there's zero discussion about EOL choices as she is not going to die. She has stood firm in that belief that she will never die. "My kids would be heartbroken" is her 'reasoning'. Well, BIL hasn't seen her for over 2 years and DH wouldn't care if she passed today. Honestly, he will experience deep guilt, b/c he has not been on board AT ALL for years, and he is already talking about how awful he feels about her sad life (that she is 100% responsible for!!!)…..there isn't enough therapy in the world to make that relationship OK.
I hope. Dorker, that you take MIL's whining as what it is: a petulant last ditch effort to get what she wants.
My MIL also speaks about my DH as this 'precious, amazing man' but she treats him like crap. You can SAY what you may, but the proof is in the pudding, so it's said. How does she TREAT him when he's not in the room with other people?
My mother is 'all for show'. She doesn't care for me and I know it, but when she sees me and she is with her friends, she acts all cutesy-cuddly. It makes me sick.
Hang tough--MIL will pass in a NH of some kind. It didn't HAVE to be that way, but you cannot reason with her, so don't try.
But prepare yourself for some heaven duty depression from DH once his mom does pass. He is going to be wracked with guilt---so be aware that is almost a certainty.