I've posted before about in-law care-giving. Aged mother in law, lives in same town.
We are at the tail end of a visit from sister in law from several states away. Sister in law has been here for 3 weeks caring for her mother. A much welcome respite.
It had been discussed, prior to her arrival here on the scene, she would be talking it over with her mother, to try and get her mom to come up to her home, for a stay of maybe a few months.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely essential, as I am expecting twin grand-children, due in about 1 month (if they don't come sooner, as is the case a lot of times with multiples pregnancies). The expectant mother also lives locally here, and has a 4 year old daughter. I will be on that front, helping .. as much as is needed. And not on the front with mother in law and care-giving, and have made that as obvious and apparent as I know how to make it. It would be great if mother in law would agree to go to her daughter's home (several states away) for a period of a few months .. and allow me the latitude to put my energies where I want them to be, on my daughter who will have had a c-section .. and my grand-daughter (4 years old) and new twin babies.
Nothing doing. Mother in law has dug in her heels, and will not hear of it, going to stay with her daughter for any period of time.
What are her reasons?
In mother in law's defense ... her daughter ... I don't even know how to describe it. I will say that when her daughter comes here to visit, she all but breathes for her mother and if she could find a way to do that, she'd do that too. She is the most nervous nelly, never sit down - ever ... worry wart, do everything, all the time .. person that I've ever encountered.
A great example, as I was taking her to the airport yesterday for her departure, . I reached into the fridge to grab myself a bottled water and shut the fridge and turned to walk away, as I've done for all of my 50 plus years living on this earth .. and she said to me, "Oh make sure that fridge shut". WTH???? Like I don't know how to shut a fridge? That's just a small, very small slice of what she is ... how she is.
She is so very hyper-vigilant, seeing to every minute details down to it's finest most minuscule point, fine tooth comb, questioning every point along the way, "should we do thus and so, but maybe if we do thus and so, then such and such will happen, maybe we should do it thus and so .. but then so and so might happen, maybe we shouldn't do thus and so, but do "x" "y" and "z" instead, but if we don't do it that way then ..........", on and on and on and on it goes. And usually in hyper warp speed, as to every single friggin thing.
If her mother moans .. "what's wrong mother?, why did you moan, are you alright?".
Mother: "Yes, I'm fine, I was just sighing out loud".
Sister: "Why did you sigh? Are you hurting, are you sure you're alright, why are you sighing what's the matter?"
Mother: "For God's sake __________________, I was just sighing, .. calm down, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, .. because if something is wrong you need to tell me".
Mother: "Everything is fine, I'm fine".
Sister: "Are you sure, we did a lot yesterday, did we do too much, maybe we shouldn't of gone to two doctors in one day .. was that too much for you, are you too tired now, maybe we need to move those other doctor appointments so we won't have two in one day, is that too much for you, for one day .. is that why you were sighing .. what's wrong, are you sure you're alright".
Hopefully that kinda gives a little bit of a snapshot of what goes on when sister is in the ring directing things.
So in mother in law's defense.. I do get it, why she wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go to her daughter's home.
BUT ....
The only experience she has with her daughter, in the last years as mother in law has aged and been unable to go anywhere much, has been the daughter coming here, periodically, for periods of about 3 weeks at a stretch. When her daughter comes here, she moves heaven and earth for her mother and then some, and doesn't sit down, doesn't stop .. the WHOLE ENTIRE TIME.
Is there a possibility maybe (as I said to mother in law, when she expressed that isn't happening - talking to me - her going to her daughters .. ever) .. could it be possible that maybe if you would go to where she lives .. she'd be more busy managing her own life in that setting than your's and she would get out of your backside .. and not be as hyper-drive-vigilant as you experience in her, when she's here, could that be possible.
The daughter is retired, lives several states away. Does come here, generally, every few months .. and stays for a period of about 3 weeks at a stretch. I wish I could make a list of everything the daughter did when here this last time, but it would take up the whole character allotment:
It's been refreshing ..
The only thing that has bubbled up .. in the past week .. as I pointed out to SIL . she's the middle man created in all this .. and it's all so unnecessary . but whatever.
I guess the doc that repaired MIL's broken hip about February of this past year .. there was a follow up appt . some months back . and I guess there was to be another follow up . wherein they xray that hip .. and I guess .. (is it a cash grab for the doc office, who knows) .. examine whether the repaired hip is holding ..
She has no complaints about that hip ..
The other hip .. she does complain about ...
She fell back on NYE or NYD . .not sure .. one of those days .. and since then has complained some that the other hip/leg is painful .. (nothing has been done to investigate that hip .. that I know of). But she does participate daily in PT . so one might assume . there is no damage .. not really .. otherwise she'd not be able to do PT, .. one might surmise.
So I guess notification had been forwarded as to an upcoming follow up appt to have taken place this week .. for that repaired broken hip. MIL balking, not wanting to go. Doesn't complain that the hip that was repaired is any issue .. and that appt would necessitate she be carted out by medical transport . in her wheelchair, accompanied by staff there .. and I guess she didn't wanna go.
I don't blame her.
So SIL questioning . reaching out to me, .. for my input .. and posing the above, "Do you think I should just cancel it, maybe call that doc office, and see is this really necessary . she doesn't complain that the hip is bothersome .. she complains about the other hip from her fall from NYE or NYD .. but . .she does PT every day .. so .. I don't know that there's really any injury there .. but she doesn't wanna go to that follow up appt., do you think I should just try to cancel it".
My response to her, .. "Yea I guess so, .. up to you".
Next thing she texts me again at some later point, that she'd reached out to that doc office, and cancelled the appt . and that they'd (who knows why they feel it necessary but okay) . they'd offered what they'll do is send an order to Purgatory for them to xray it there on site, . and send the results to them.
I responded to that as follows: "Oh okay .. do you think MIL will trust the integrity of that mobile xray thing . I know that one time she fell and that's what they did . she'd thought maybe she re-injured that hip .. so they ordered a mobile xray unit to come . and when the results came in there was no injury .. she didn't trust it, thought that was hokey . that mobile xray process . and in the end, you scheduled for her to be carted out to that doc that repaired the hip .. do you think she'll trust the integrity of that process .. or will you be back at square one .. and maybe since they'll do that one hip via mobile xray . have em look at the other one she's complaining about .. see if they'll do another xray on the other hip she's complaining about".
SIL: "That's a good idea, I think I'll ask them at Purgatory if they'll do that. Hope I'm not opening a Pandora's box here".
Next thing ya know, she texts again sometime later, .. said she'd talked to the nurse there, as to ordering another xray of the other hip that is bothersome to MIl and that nurse got a bit testy with SIL . saying to her, "Well she hasn't complained to any of us here, . or we'd of seen to it .. we haven't heard a word from her about any pain in the other hip and she goes daily to PT and participates but okay". Said the nurse got a bit huffy at her request.
She said she told the nurse, "She just hates to complain and ask for anything".
To my response to that: "same as it ever was,
sadness .. (that's what you see more than anything else as to emotions) . but other times the anger that also bubbles to the surface with it all. I figure . nah .. I'm not gonna go and deal with her sadness too . not gonna do it.
Maybe if one day DH himself is more resigned to the whole sad plight . and it's not fielding and being a sounding board to his sadness and/or walking away from what feels like at times, him wanting to pick a fight . when that anger and frustration surfaces . maybe I'll feel differently and be that person I thought I'd be to just casually drop in for a visit . and be on my way.
But not right now ..
And as to SIL doing more to get her the help she needs. She has .. now whether Purgatory (who can be so bad at follow thru) is doing it . is a whole other horse of a different color . but she has. She has spoken to the psych that MIL sees, who will now see her 2 x's weekly as is the minister who also works with her . and the psych doc was going to check with the NP about upping MIL's AD med .. so .. SIL who is the top spinner of whirligigs .. may prove helpful . if indeed Purgatory is seeing thru what is the course of action that's been mentioned.
Hopefully some of the above, if they actually will do what it is that's been said they'd do .. will begin to turn the corner on some of this malingering MIL does .. and we can begin to see a difference. Time will tell.
The shame of it all, .. deeply troubling .. is that unless things have changed a lot, and I seriously doubt they have .. there's not a dam thing one can do .. until or if the person is suicidal or homicidal .. and then . and only then .. can one direct things for a temp psych old of 72 hours, at which the mentally ill individual knows the ropes, promise the sun, moon and stars that you'll cooperate and be med complaint and they bounce ya right back outta there, to wreak more havoc.
Seen it, bought the tee shirt to prove it, we all did.
My hope is that one day with more life experience, the two younger siblings can come to a better empathy with it all. They aren't there. They don't say unkind things to OD . she isn't around enough for them to do so .. she's a real loner, and keeps to herself and/or her friends when she feels like being social.
But they do say unkind things about her .. and that's kinda understandable, not going to stop them .. they have their own hurts from years of having watched/lived with it all.
OD was bounced outta here at the ripe age of 17. People who say .. how could you do that, she wasn't even a legal adult at that point, should have to live it. There were, at that time, two younger siblings and all of us .. under constant strain if not threats .. and ... I was done.
Many years since that time .. and since that time OD hit on some really rough spots . homeless at one point even .. I didn't know where she was .. at all. BUT .. she did come to an understanding of her own fruition somewhere along the way . that she has to comply with meds and talk therapy . and to not do so is to her own detriment . and began to do just that .. and things turned a corner for the better, but it was many years to get to that point.
As to DH .. it's an anomaly ..
Sometimes you see glimmers that he actually "gets it" . that his mom just cannot live outside an institutional setting .. but other times that anger . ..anger with no real target surfaces.
Some of it I do ponder if, at the root of it all, he was able to mostly continue on for a long time, obtuse to it all .. doing what he wants with his time . and his wife . .sans when his sister was in town .. ran the show . .and he only had to go for "fixit" projects ..
That has all changed. A complete about-face.
I don't go .. I don't go visit her, on my own. I go with him on occasion . but that's it ..
So .. any "visiting" she gets is on him ... and whatever the daughters here care to do . which as we've established is zero for OD . and not a lot by DD (she has kids and so .. is too busy most of the time) .. and YD .. some .. but not a lot. So it's mostly on him to go visit his mom . .and usually I don't go.
Maybe it's quite different when the only impact you hear about as to the mother's well being or lack thereof . is what the wife yammers on and on about .. quite different when it's you that has to be front and center to it all. Maybe that's in part, where the anger is rooted . that he is now front and center and all the lamenting . any/all problems/issues .. he has to be front and center to . sans what his sister handles from afar (and she does handle most of it, as to issues/problems that crop up).
It would probably be a lot easier if the days of past would return (at least in his view) .. and he could exit stage left . and wifey would be the one front and center to it all. Not going to happen.
I never thought that I'd be as distanced from it all as I have become .. at least as to the going and visiting her. I thought at one point in time, that I'd be someone who pops in maybe to bring some candies, some flowers, maybe an interesting book or magazine . and just stay and visit a few . and then be on on my way.
That hasn't turned out to be the case, .. and thus far .. as I routinely deal with DH's *mostly*
Disengaging and walking away when he starts in on the “if I could just bring her here and take care of her......”, I’m glad to hear that’s how you handle those remarks. Him saying that kinda sounds like manipulation or a feeble attempt to get you to cave and say “ok let’s go get her and bring her here”. He has to know she wouldn’t be happy at your house and I think it’s safe to say, he wouldn’t take care of her. It would put on your plate. After everything you’ve said, I don’t think anyone here believes he Would
give up his lifestyle (work less, out church life and hunting on hold and whatever else he does) to care for his mother. He’s not gonna do it and SIL is in IL so it would be all on you. When he says “if I could just bring her here”, what is he hoping to accomplish when he says that? At this point it has to be more than just lamenting MILs unhappiness.
I think it is awesome you recognize that DD and YD have been impacted by OD’s mental health struggles. I think it’s easy for parents to forget about the other siblings and how they are affected. I’m a sibling who was out through hell & my parents never really acknowledged that my brothers issues-struggles with mental illness, drinking, drugs, he was verbally and mentally abusive to all of us. It was hell. He came & went all hours of the night, brought random people in to the house while we slept & were at work, he stole anything he could sell to get money for drugs. Couldn’t say anything to him without a violent reaction. He was incarcerated. There were times cops and probation officers showed up at random to search his room. And it affected me profoundly. I ended up with bad anxiety. I truly thought I was dying, thought my heart was giving out. I found a lump in my breast at 18 and lost my chit thinking I had cancer. Turned out to be just a fibroid and everything else was attributed to anxiety l. And no one ever recognized that I suffered a lot as a result of my brothers problems. My mother seems to have totally forgotten it all and has forgiven him. and all these years I have been expected to have a relationship with him and act like nothing ever happened! So it is great that you recognize that your other daughters have been impacted by OD. I wish my parents would have recognized it years ago. Anyway!
The water thing. So what is supposed to happen in a nursing home when a resident loses the ability to ask for the things they need? If I was DH I would have told SIL to deal with the nursing home herself. If MIL is going to call SIL, SIL should take.care of the problem herself rather than call DH. He’s right, he’s an unnecessary middleman.
Lol!
He gets busy & doesn't answer/ignores his phone.
DH unnerved by this .. why does she call my sister in IL?!??!?!?! I'm right here local . she calls my sister in IL .. and h377 .. what's she gonna do .. call the staff there . and yea .. she'd done that .. but then sister is gonna call me .... why not bypass all that horsechit and call me.
He said he fussed at his mom . ."MOM .. why don't you call me, I LIVE HERE .. why are you calling sister?".
Said his mom answered: "I don't know your phone #".
Him to his mom; "It's right there on your table . right on the same table where sister's number is .. I want you to finish your dinner they just brought you and then I want you to FIND my phone #, . you call my sister and then she calls me .. why not just call ME".
He was F.R.U.S.T.R.A.T.E.D.
Story goes .. and who knows .. and yes even DH realizes the validity of the whole thing is shaky at best . as reported by his mom ..
She has a bad cold . and last night . wee hours of the AM . her water cup was empty . she "says" she pushed the button and no one ever came . not a soul . and so she got herself into her wheelchair and wheeled herself to the nurse desk . where the CNA's were all whooping it up and laughter and having a grand ole time . saw her, asked her what's going on .. she then answered she'd been buzzing them forever (who knows, .. did she even buzz them or does she think she did .. and who knows if it was *forever*) .. who knows. Told them she'd been buzzing them forever, that her water cup is empty and she needs water . and no one is responding.
I guess they hopped to, got her some water . .and that was that, . .that was 4 AM . so she says.
Sounds like the same thing playing out today, this afternoon . empty water cup . no one responding to being buzzed .. and I guess this time, rather than get into her wheelchair . she called DH's sister . in IL . and DH's sister then on the phone with staff to dial down on what's going on .. and then on the phone to DH .. I guess to prompt him into service, maybe to go by there . fill her water cup ..??...jump on staff . who knows.
He was angry ... as he put it .. "so I'm talking to her on the phone and I hear her say *thank you* .. I stopped her . who are you thanking .. ??....".
Her to DH: "they just brought me my meal tray"
Him to his mom: Mother, stop them .. stop the person . tell the you need your water cup filled . for crying out loud . they come in there to drop off a tray . that's a staff member, ask them . stop them".
She did that . he stayed on the phone with her . and ensured a cup of water was brought back to her, admonishing again .. "mom when they come in to check on you .. ASK THEM FOR WHAT YOU NEED, that's what they're there for".
Who knows .. were they really that complacent .. who can say? Was she really buzzing for help and they were ignoring it .. ??.. who knows.
And .. DH .. his anger at it all . being bugged by his sister .. maybe needs to grasp onto the fact ... there could be no validity at all to any of it DH . she may have dreamed for all you know . that they weren't filling her water cup .. for crying out loud . you can't get that angry about it all .. it serves no purpose.
And for crying out loud, that's Dementia 101 .. a staff member comes and she thanks them for handing her something and doesn't remember to ASK FOR THE VERY THING she's squawking about .. dementia 101. On exhibit right there.
But that isn't going to happen ...
They both see (and somewhat I can see how they feel that way) . she needs to vent, .. she needs to be able to talk to someone ..
If it were me, but I don't have the emotional entanglements .. I could do that, and stick to it, reminding her she has professionals to consult on that topic, giving her a chance to follow redirect ... and failure to do that .. I'd do just that .. but .. I don't go there, on my own, I go w/DH at times . and that's it.
And I think the point in more than one visit weekly is the fact that at one time, .. she wasn't as immobile . and kinda captive to that setting, and ostensibly had her own life (long ago) and so .. no .. visits didn't occur at that point anything close to once weekly . she'd of likely found that annoying .. rightfully so .. a life of her own .. and here her son is at her doorstep yet again.
But these days .. she is captive in that setting and largely immobile . bound to a wheelchair . .. and so has no life. My guess is that's probably what motivates a lot of folks that go to see their aged LO in a NH setting more than once a week.
What my struggle is .. is the fact that for the most part, .. yes, he has come a long way .. but going to see his mom does still elicit the sadness and sometimes the anger .. at it all.
There is no real target to dial at it with it all, there isn't .. one can't point the gun (proverbially) at some drunk driver that ripped her existence from her, . .or some horrible car accident that left her maimed ..
It's old age .. and she's miserable and plays that card like a broken record . and though DH has come a long way . that residual anger still simmers just under the surface, . .that he can't "fix it" by .. I guess .. dumping her care in my lap and turn tail on it all .. and that causes some "anger" on his part ... anger that surfaces, at times mixed with the sadness .. as he comes home from yet another visit there and wearing on his sleeve the sadness that is her talking points .. repeated talking points . "what's to become of me, what's next for me, what are my goals, why am I here .. am I here to just wait to die", on and on it goes.
Somehow that anger bubbles to the surface at times . in his .. "if I could just bring her here to care for her ......".
I used to get in a pizzing match over it all with him .. "But DH .. ... she's this, she's that .." so on ..
I don't any longer ..
I hear it .. I hear the remarks .. but I don't engage any longer, but doesn't mean I don't walk away with my blood boiling at times.
It's not my fault she got old enough to need this much help . and I DID HELP for a LONG DAM TIME .. and pretty much carried it all .. sans her daughter's visits here . so get over yourself ... and if you can't come to terms with this is where she needs to be, then go get counseling to help you grasp it .. but shut up . and don't say that e.v.e.r. again to me, it's not my fault".
THAT is my struggle ..
One never knows . when he returns from these visits . will he be just sad and morose .. which in and of itself is troublesome . but will that also be mixed with anger and some hostility . at the fact that the one thing that would fix it (so he seems to imply) would be if dear sweet wifey would take this on .. and ... she could be less miserable ...
I disagree .. she wouldn't be happy here, .. but I also would be not only UNHAPPY .. I couldn't do it . .it's far too much, and I've said so .. countless times, but still it rears it's ugly head from time to time . and so I just choose to not engage and walk away .. but it's frustrating as H377.
OD's sisters aren't always as kind and understanding of her plight .. but they were victims for years .. of the fallout of her mental illness here. And almost anyone will tell you, that has an adolescent suffering from mental illness, . unless the kid is compliant (and she wasn't, not by any stretch) . .about all you can do is wait for them to fall into the pit of law enforcement . and detainment there, or .. wait for homicidal and suicidal threats . and detain them in a psych lock up ..
They both spent their formative years with an older sister that was off the chain .. threats of violence, to them, to us her parents .. not compliant with "rules" of any sort from anyone . parents/school, etc. .. and too ashamed a lot of times to bring their friends around, lest the oldest sister do something embarrassing and she usually did just that.
The two, YD and DD can be less than understanding about what mental illness looks like in a rebellious teen .. but they were too young to have to comprehend and process the whole thing ongoing in their worlds.
But this time, the mockery that DD was speaking in .. she was referring not to her older sister .. in that tone . but more so . the fact her granny has zero ability to process there is good reason at this point that OD doesn't visit .. and almost like she'd like to spill it out there .. "uh yea granny .. she's not coming to see you . . she isn't gonna be giving you suicide tips .. it takes her to a dark place she struggles to stay away from . so . get a clue".
That was more her intent . not to mock her oldest sister (though they both do that .. at times).
For him to actually to her face say those things and be firm, certainly a step in the right direction.
And honestly, not sure why anyone (including him:) thinks he needs to visit more than once per week.
He doesn’t have to feel guilty to not be there multiple times a week. This stuff is a lot to handle. The visits can wear heavily. That may sound mean, and I am not encouraging anyone to abandon granny, but it is always so interesting to me how we caregivers can get our “frequency radar” messed up with parents.
Many, many people DON’T see their parents anything like once per week. Because they have their own lives. And that is always very normal... UNTIL you start caregiving or managing care. Then, there is this self-imposed expectation that you should visit way more frequently than a normal adult relationship requires. We went through it too, after we moved them to memory care.
It was only after I started thinking through what a normal relationship looks like and stepped out of the “here for every need/emergency” mindset that I realized we were putting very unreasonable expectations on ourselves. For a spouse, everyday to multiple times a week makes sense. But, for a parent, a reasonable, non-onerous short weekly visit is a beautiful thing, not the act of a cold-hearted child. Just saying, in case you and DH need to hear that it is ok to not make your world revolve around visits to MIL.
(I know some people talk to parents multiple times a day and have such a close family relationship that daily visits are the norm. They truly love being together, but I think that is a rarity... I love knowing that some people out there are really that close to their families and my heart smiles for them. Not really talking about those folks here.)
His telling MIL that she needs to lay it down is terrific. The line I use is, “I can see this might not be the best time for a visit. I will see you next time when you are feeling better.” A kiss on the forehead and out the door. I think, even with dementia, they sense who responds to what on some very basic level. She knows she can make him sad. I am not saying she is doing it maliciously. More self-centered. It gives her a boost to bring him down with her because that means she isn’t sad alone. Another piece of the broken brain.
But, he doesn’t have to be on the receiving end of it. This isn’t “giving her an outlet to process”... she processes it with a lot of people. Her life is hard now, no doubt, but him listening to the ruminating isn’t going to help her come to a breakthrough... and it isn’t going to make him want to be there. He is being smart and doing the right thing, which in the long run will preserve the relationship if he can hold onto that mindset.
DH bringing photos - excellent! "It gave her some talking points other than the woe with me". Now he's got it! Redirect all that thinking of the past (grief) into happier memories. Win/win. Way to go DH ⭐⭐⭐
I think it's called *Reminiscense therapy*.
OD is self preserving. You can't fault her for that.
During a very dark time in my life, I was suicidal. Ideation, mostly, I NEVER attempted anything, being of sound enough mind to know there was a way out of the bleakness.
But TALKING to or being around truly suicidal people, or even ones who spoke of it incessantly--was, to me, so toxic. It took me days to get over a visit with a certain neighbor who suffered so severely from mental illness. She made MANY attempts, but always called her DH or a neighbor just as she was swallowing the last pill...so she was craving the attention more than anything--but everyone knew to take her 'talk' as serious.
It is probably horrible for OD to see her granny in this state, and even tho MIL is probably not 100% responsible for what she's saying--that doesn't mean anything to OD. The TALK of suicide starts a cycle that is hard to break.
IF MIL can watch her language (and she probably can't) then a visit from OD may be nice. It could also be horrific.
Sounds like OD is just trying to take care of herself, which is probably very hard to do, many days.
Being in the presence of MIL is something I myself don't do . not alone .. I go with either DD and crew (and in that case, I'm chasing kids . so not really visiting) .. and/or I go with DH .. I don't go alone.
Speaking on my behalf . I don't have suicide ideation struggles, never did . but being around her fatalistic dialogue and woe with me, and also fielding DH with his sadness he routinely comes home with . is more than I wanna stomach .. so I don't .. I just don't go.
So I get it .. I completely understand and don't fault OD.
As far as I'm concerned, if it's . .as YD put it, "she needs to get over herself" . if you find it that important YD that she go and visit her granny .. you have been ears to a suggestion that might facilitate that, make it happen . reach out to OD at a time you're going . and help make it happen. Or don't.
Same with DH . same with DD .. if they feel compelled enough to make granny's whim come to fruition "she wants to see OD, doesn't understand why OD never comes to see her" .. then make it happen. Or don't .. up to you.
Last night I had the kids (g'kids) over for dinner here.
The scene when all are here (sans OD who .. she just doesn't come around a lot, she wasn't here) .. it's pretty chaotic with little ones around and then the kids . who are all young and full of life and laughter .. it's a lot noisier having them over as opposed to just me and DH here alone.
We were just sitting down to the the table to eat last night .. when something/someone brought up MIL.
DD announced she'd been by .. in the last week, she and her crew .. to go see MIL. YD then asking, "oh yea, how was she?".
DD then answering .. and kinda circling her ear as if to say kooky .. but answered audibly "she's okay . as okay as granny can be anyway . .she's sad . . always .. you need to go see her YD .. and OD too .. she wants to know why OD never comes to see her, wants her to come see her".
<<As I've mentioned before here in this forum .. OD doesn't go see her g'mother, and that's because of OD's tenuous, at best, mental health issues of her own>>.
DD then without missing a beat .. mouthed/mocked, kinda in a tone that she'd like to say to MIL (but wouldn't it would be cruel for her to do so) .. DD now saying out loud, in a kinda mocking tone: "That's because granny when she comes to see you, you ask her for tips as to how to kill yourself .. takes her to a bad place she fights to stay way from .. can't do that to her".
YD then weighing in: "OD needs to get over herself".
Me then chiming in: "I get it, I know her struggles, her life long struggle with her own mental health demons .. I don't fault her .. she just can't do it .. ".
I didn't say it because it's pointless, it's been said .. I have recommended that a good way to get that done, and to all involved .. any of you that wanna go and visit her and do so at a time that OD can also visit .. that would be a good setting in that . you guys can redirect any of that fatalistic dialogue and then OD doesn't have to be subject to it.
Have said it, more than once, . to all involved . nobody heads it up to "MAKE IT HAPPEN" .. e.v.e.r.
It gets met with "yea that's a good idea, we should do that" and the ball promptly dropped. I didn't even offer it any further .. it's been said.
My feeling/thoughts .. I have talked to OD in depth actually about this whole thing and she very much struggles with her own mental health demons . and to go and see MIL is to revisit and in your face, with the suicide ideation . in that MIL doesn't seem to possess the abilities anymore to realize that yes .. at one time that was very much on OD's radar .. and she herself .. OD .. psych hold more than once for same .. and fought that battle and it's one that continues but is held at bay through some talk therapy and meds .. and is just a stone's throw away . as to her own well being .. a lot of the time. And for her to go visit MIL who then sees in OD .. "oh she understands the wanting to die ... she has always wanted to kill herself" .. she sees that in OD without any real ability to sort through at her aged state .. "that's not gonna be a good place to sit and visit with OD . that will be depressing for OD".
I get it .. and OD knows I get it .. I've told her that, ... along with suggestions to her .. ."hey if you're ever free and feel compelled to go and see granny, reach out to your dad or your sisters . maybe one of them will have some time to meet you there . .and it'd be good if there is diversion in another human there, to change the course of all that talk".
It doesn't happen.
Not motivated by OD, nor anyone else. So be it.
As I said to the crowd last night .. "I invited her, when we all gathered there for the pizza that night, I talked to her, and invited her, but she had to work".
To that a response of (she cleans pools for a living, OD does) .. "pools? At night? Hmmm?".
I shrugged my shoulders .. "oh well".
DH knows that he will need to bring the MIL car here, more than likely (unless he wants to run back and forth to the MIL house, for folks that wanna take a look at it for possible purchase). He needs to go get the MIL car and drive it here, and then he'll set about the "sale" of the car.
The house being turned back over to RM folks .. I'll let you know . .when I find out how that goes. No official phone call has been made as of yet, to RM folks to "it's yours now", and no official phone call to the power company ... "turn off power there". Not yet. Phone has long since been cut there, the landline . we did away with that .. after SIL left before Tgiving .. as was the case with the cable tv and the internet there, those items also dispensed with as to service there at MIL home.
Still remaining is the yard service that goes on . as long as the home continues in her name . and the power to the home.
So .. it's coming.
I think I'm remembering this. And also when MIL was in Purgatory but SIL still in town, I don't think he went very much because SIL the whirlwind was around.
I was in touch with him, when she was hospitalized, .. and via phone . just checking in . but c'taker was on site and dealing w/it and so I wasn't needed front and center.
When MIL lived at home . all DH could find time to do was the "fixit" projects . and begging/pleading (from me) "go have lunch w/your mom, go start your day with her sometimes, just stop in and bring a McD's b'fast .. go spend the night with her . for no reason other than to just visit" .. went unanswered to .. and he didn't wanna ...
She departed for IL . ducking storm season here and all the upheaval that occurred in that setting, then landed back here for about two weeks, SIL along . and then from there, things went in the direction they now stand .. her in a NH .. broken hip and such.
Since that time, yes he has gone to see her, .. as much as he "can" . .and visit with her .. in the setting post hospitalization which was more "posh" . than where she currently resides in a SNF .. so yes . since that time he has gone to visit her ..
Recently . that you may be referring to .. he still goes to see her, . but it was a struggle (still is) for him to put one foot out of the door of his vehicle and onto the pavement . and another foot, and then push himself into Purgatory to go visit . and him having to literally . say a prayer before doing so.
As he put it, "it's getting so hard to go visit her, I will never abandon her, I'm not that guy .. I'll keep going . but it's getting harder and harder, with her constant refrain of her tale of woe . and I get so sick of hearing it .. ".
So that may be what you're referring to .. he was having to "push" himself . and still does ... to go .. and visit, and for the reasons stated.
There have been times that he's only gotten there 1x weekly . and that would be more work related constraints than any other reason.
What's the situation at your father's? Has your stepmother come home from the hospital? Have you been able to stay away?
Her words: "When I'm there in town .. I go and visit her, but generally I'm pretty busy, reorganizing a drawer or a closet or finding something that's come up missing or talking to staff about some issue that needs dialed in on .. maybe he should do more of that when he goes to visit".
To me, .. it kinda frustrated and angered me a bit. She knows . .that's her gig . that's her mode of operation .. she goes there and busies herself . with the minutia of all things MIL and doesn't "sit" and "visit" . she knows that's not how DH operates . she even found fault with it when last here . saying the words herself .. "I see what he does . he comes here . pops a lollipop in his mouth and sits .. h377 I run my azz off when I'm here . he comes and sits and visits". She knows this.
Suggestion that he do things the way she does it .. is gonna be all for naught . and maybe would satisfy her need to "make excuses, placate her mom" but it's not in reality what's going to transpire . it's not.
She knows .. he's not likely to be able to arrange his schedule to go there when there is an activity ongoing and cart her to same . she knows this. His work schedule (self employed) .. doesn't really allow for that mostly. It just doesn't. One would think, someone self employed can call their own shots as to the hours they work, but in reality . it doesn't work that way.
By and large . he goes there at the end of his work day .. that's almost hands down when you see him go there . and at that hour .
A) there are no activities to go attend
B) it's usually approaching dark time and so taking her outside to park her near another resident in the hope of sparking some conversation as a diversion . is not going to happen . not at that hour.
She knows all this ..
But to me, it kinda felt like . she . who is always at the ready to placate .. as to her mom . would follow just that path . and not at least listen/entertain the notion that DH .. approached this from a reality standpoint . and kinda (not mean like, but matter of fact like) put her on notice . that he can't keep hearing all this .. and that . at least IMO . that is much needed . and with more consistency and frequency .. that such a foreign notion to her ..
Her only viewpoint one of . "we have to let her vent, she needs to work thru all the loss .. and it's a real struggle for her .. it's very real to her . this struggle of all the loss".
That'd be about like me mandating .. "maybe when you come here, you put down all the minutia of finding salt shakers that are missing and hair brushes that have grown legs . and pj tops that aren't accounted for and sit and listen ... and visit .. maybe you do things that way".
I don't .. I don't suggest she do things any different than what she does . she's who she is .. and that's how she operates ..
I don't know .. in me, I was proud and I applaud DH that he did that .. not that in the end, it will stem the tide of the woe with me that is a constant . not unless he does so with consistency and he's not going to . not right now anyway .. that's apparent .. but . I applaud his effort .. and I think it needs more of the same . and she needs to be consistently redirected in that woe w/me .. and that if he'd do that, if she'd do that .. "mom those are questions we can't answer, you have a psych team and those are great questions for you to work through with them . .now let's talk about something else" and then do just that . change the subject, every time ..
Thus my having said to her . that it's my wish the psych folks work w/her on the denial piece of all this and how that has impacted the space she lives in now . and what she can do in the here and now, to better her circumstances in the space she lives in now.
From where I sit, seeing DH who comes home from there sad and forlorn with it all, I applaud his efforts .. she doesn't . apparently.
If you question him .. "Thought you told her you can't keep hearing it" . then you get a sense of some wrath from him "She has to be able to talk about it .. she has to vent". So .. he's not ready, he's not there himself, to shut it down.
Telling SIL about all that dialogue that went on .. and framed in the context much as I'm doing here, that I was proud of him for taking that approach and IMO it was much needed . and needs to be reinforced with some consistency.
It meets in her, some return dialogue that goes about like this: "Well she's struggling with so much loss .. it's probably going to be harder for her and take longer .. and she may never come to terms with it .. she spent so many years in denial that she was aging .. and that wasn't going to happen to her .. and she's just struggling with so much loss . she's lost her home, her mobility, her precious beloved dog .. all her prized possessions from decades of travels and so forth, everything she had .. had a story . . and meant so much to her. These folks that grew up in the depression era . .they worked so hard for whatever they had .. and it's all gone .. and it's all to her, a real struggle, all the loss .. it will take her longer and she may never get there, .. and she has to be able to vent/talk about it, maybe it helps her to come to terms with it, to keep repeating it all".
She goes on to say that the psych doc shares with her that her mom is really struggling at present with the fact her home is empty now and going back to the bank . that she'd so held out hope (I know, unbelievable and not realistic at all) . that she'd be well enough to return to her beloved home and all her prized possessions and she and her little doggie . and now the loss .. the knowing, the home is now sitting empty of all those possessions . and going to be turned back over to the bank .. that loss is a real struggle for her.
As I told SIL (and I don't know . .call me mean and heartless) .. "To me, from where I sit in all this . maybe that psych team needs to work with her on the denial piece of all this and maybe help her come to terms with the denial .. and how that measures into the space in time she finds herself in at present .. I know it's all water under the bridge at this point .. and maybe even beyond her to process and contemplate, but from where I sit in all this . and observation . SIL she was in denial .. long ago .. back when her health was faltering and she was not "managing" in her own home . she wasn't . and it needed more hands on .. as to dealing with her . and her pat answer in those days .. "Now I know what I need to do here, and I will do it, I will manage" .. and as we all know, she wasn't "managing" .. it goes that far back and further .. her denial . and whatever space she was able to put herself and her imaginary world .. has a big part in all this stuck in the malingering she does .. at present.
She had suggested that since it's so problematic with DH . that she stays on the same talking points .. (good points she makes but not workable really) that DH needs to go more often, but shorter visits .. that he needs to go when he can take her to an activity .. and/or . if it's a good day .. go outside, and park her next to another resident . and so there can be some conversation that isn't centered around .. her woe with me talking points .. that he needs to rework how he does things . and it had sort of angered me with her, ..
It angers me from the standpoint that to her, it's always an excuse .. always suitable to let's all work our world around MIL's woes .. and placate it all .. let's not sit up and take notice that maybe she needs to "HEAR" the reality of the situation and with more frequency and consistency. Let's don't entertain that as any notion . that seems to be her approach .. and from afar. She who . yes does come in town . but when she does so (and as she recommended that perhaps DH should do)
Asking her if she's aware that every time he comes there, she brings up the same, "what's next for me, what's to become of me, what's my goal, my purpose, why am I here" .. the same talking points . asking her if she's aware she does that every visit . and him telling her .. he has no answers .. that it's been talked about .. into infinity . and he doesn't have the answers for her . that these are items she needs to work thru with her psych that comes to see her, .. and see what he has to say about her questions.
Saying to her, . mom you're here because you need help .. you weren't taking care of yourself at home, you were falling . you were ill at lot .. you couldn't care for your dog anymore, .. you need more help than any of us can give you .. you need staff around the clock .. it's clean here, it's safe .. if you have medical issues there are staff here to attend to those issues, they feed you, they give you your meds .. they help you bathe .. so many things you can't do on your own anymore, there's a reason you're here .. and it's up to you to make the best of it, as best you can .. we can't fix that for you, you have to do that part.
Him saying to her, .. "ya know you spent so many years in denial that you weren't going to get old . that wasn't going to happen to you . refusing to go and do things at the senior center, . .. and isolated and lonely . and you weren't happy even in your own home, ... do you remember the number of times I'd come there, you sitting at your kitchen table, staring into the b'yard and telling me, this is no life, this is no way to have to live, I have no life left anymore .. I can't do anything .. do you remember that.
Said she answered, "Did I say that?".
He told her, yes .. every time I'd come to see you . you'd say that . every time, you weren't happy even at home .. and you've spent all these years denying you'd get old .. and that wasn't gonna happen to you . well it did .. and you are here, because you're old and you need help . and now you're surrounded by other old people here .. you should've used some of that time to be around other old people .. and you didn't . and so it's like a culture shock to you .. it's up to you . to make of it what you will at this point, we can't fix that for you . you need to go and do some of the things that are offered here, rather than sit here and in silence, not even a tv on . .and feel sorry for yourself and question what's next, what's next for me .. you need to stop all that and go and make the best of it, . as best you can . every day you're given ... I don't have the answers for you as to what's next, .. what's to become of you . and I can't keep hearing it . this isn't just hard for you, it's dam hard on all of us .. I don't have the answers . you have a psych doc that visits .. ponder those deep questions with him .. I can't keep hearing it".
I was proud of him that he'd taken that approach. IMO she needs to hear it ..
But not only that, . if it's going to be beneficial (and that's doubtful . she doesn't remember) . if it's going to be beneficial .. then he needs to stick to that .. and every time she goes there, .. shut it down .. "Mom we're not going there with those questions .. I told you . talk to your psych doc about that . so what'd you do yesterday did you go to Bingo . did you go to Trivia, . or Music time . did you go to the chair exercise class .. . remember we talked about that, that you need to go partake of some of what goes on here".
He needs to be consistent in it ...
Maybe he'll get there one day and shut it down when it errupts . this whole "what's next for me, . what's to become of me here" .. maybe he'll get to that place himself eventually that he'll turn the tide on any of that dialogue . and redirect it . with consistency. He hasn't done so .. in the subsequent visits since that come to Jesus meeting of sorts .. he has let that dialogue erupt and then comes home from there sad and forlorn himself
I was rather proud of him and applaud his actions from a week or so ago .. (don't know that it'll prove all that helpful in the end though). He'd gone to see her, . and had with him .. (hooray for him) a family picture taken .. oh I dunno . maybe 20 years ago in the b'yard of MIL's home. MIL, her husband, SIL, EB, and DH .. all in the b'yard, standing together posing for the picture.
Heretofore, .. if MIL is asked, and she has been many times, "Don't you want some pics of your family here", she's always quick to decline it, .. "this isn't my home, no . I don't want any pictures brought here, it's a sad reminder of what used to be". No one has brought pics of family.
Til . the other day DH did . he didn't ask, he just brought that pic in and set it up and she was happy to have it (no mention at that point of "no, this isn't my home, it's a sad reminder of what was) ..nope. She was happy he brought it.
It did elicit some language having to do with EB . and how sad that whole situation is and what his departure has done to wreck her existence all these years and her struggles to understand what it is she could've done that would'e been so horrible that he chose to exit .. and never return . and dialogue about all the "apology" letters she'd written him though the years . in effort to implore him back into the fold (and she did, numerous letters) and that they'd all gone unanswered, .. that she'll never understand what she did that brought this all on, and she wishes he'd of at least explained himself .. to her, to us .. someone .. so there can be some clarity as to the "why" of it all. Her wishing he would "I just wish he would come back before I die". Did elicit some of that conversation.
DH not one to entertain a lot of dialogue on that topic, as he's heard it so many hundreds of times, has no answers that make any sense . and he also .. has his own frustrations and anger at that situation .. and so . he doesn't entertain much dialogue with her on that line of thought . and shuts it down pretty quickly and he did so this time also.
But I was glad he did that, didn't ask her, just took the pic in there and set it up and that was that. She was glad to have it.
But in that same visit, he'd also taken a photo album he'd come across emptying her home . a photo album from a camping trip across the U.S. that MIL and her husband had taken . upon their retirement years ago. He took that to her, .. and it did allow that the two of them reflect back on some of the pics there. Somewhat frustrating to her, in that she didn't caption each pic . and so in some instances she struggles to remember where/what it is that's depicted in the photos . but some she does remember.
It gave her some talking points other than the woe with me . as the normal course of dialogue. At least for a little while.
I was proud of him that he came up with that all on his own .. he didn't even ask my opinion and/or show it to me, to get my read on whether he should do so .. I didn't know he'd done that, in fact, I never even saw the photo album to have provided any input on it.
But in that setting, when he took that photo album to her, and it did allow for some different change of course as to conversation (at least for a little while) .. it did eventually turn to the sad woe with me .. and he, I was proud of him, .. and encouraged that he'd done this.
He did .. not in a mean tone, but a matter of fact tone (so he tells it, I wasn't there) .. kinda point out to her, that she brings up this same talking point every time he comes there, and he can't continue to hear it ..
Just curious, was the widow expected to take over the care of her mil? (I don't see how anyone could expect that.) Was she criticized for not allowing mil to move in when her H was alive?
Dorker, has H started going to see MIL more than once a week now?