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Ohhhhhhh, ok Shell. I thought she sued her workplace b/c she didn't get a cut of the Lotto $$$. My mistake HA !

I don't know why my mother never wore that rock, since it was CUBIC ZIRCONIA, after all, right? :)
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My mother sued her work because she slipped and fell down the stairs and hurt her knee stating that she couldn't work anymore. But she never had to work. She had my dad for that!! I am sure my mother was madder than a wet hen.

I see it as a blessing that she didn't win the lotto. OMG! My skin crawls at that thought! Or maybe she would have taken the money and left--just to end up on my dad's doorstep broke!! Because most of the women that won the lotto ended up broke except for one! She was smart with her money!

My dad use to tell me about women getting their fingers cut off for rings. If my mother thought her ring might be notice by the wrong sort of people she would twist it so the diamond was facing her palm. A trick that my dad told her!

I can not believe that your mother wanted a big fat diamond ring and "Never" wore it!!! What was the point of having it?

Yeah, thanks for clearing that up for me! I can't stop giggling because they really are all the same--saints! I keep forgetting the we are the sinners and they are saints! 😆
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God God God..............they're ALL THE SAME these women!!! Shell...........what a story about your mother & the Lotto!!!!!!!!! What a kick in the face...........I am literally laughing out loud here!!! How dare she SUE her workplace b/c she didn't get $5 million. TYPICAL of a NARC! OMG.

So.......The 2.5 Karat Ring. Dad bought her the thing after she bitterly complained for 25 years about the 'chip' he gave her for an engagement ring b/c he was 'dirt poor' when they first got together. She, of course, had to bring the ring to a jeweler to get appraised ............remember, it's all about MONEY...........so he keeps the ring for 2 days. Ever since, she's INSISTED he swapped out the 'real diamond' for a CUBIC ZIRCONIA!!!!!!!!!! Who does these things???????? Yesterday they would have been married for 74 years *but dad was lucky enough to DIE to escape more than 68 wedding anniversaries*......and she is STILL TELLING the story of the 'real diamond being swapped out with CZ' The ring is in my safe here at home. It was NOT swapped out with a CZ, naturally.........ridiculous. Just more paranoia and 'everyone is out to get me' mentality. Speaking of which, she wound up keeping that ring in a SAFE for 90% of the time she had it b/c it 'would get stolen' and someone 'would cut her finger off' to get it!!!!! True story! So after 25 years of chronic complaining, she got The Rock and never wore it!

It shocks me that all of your mother's said the same crap about jealousy and stuff. It must be a HALLMARK of the NM!!!!!!!!! And how nobody is a real friend to us except THEM and yada yada.

Shell, ALL NARCS are above God's laws! NONE of them have EVER done ANYTHING wrong, dontcha know? Nope. They are all perfect and it's everyone else on earth that's tainted and sinners, not THEM! Glad I could clear that up for you! :)
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Xray,
To answer your question, someone who is sick in the head.

My mother always denied being jealous of me. She would say, "there's nothing to be jealous about!" So, I wonder if that was true, than why the competitiveness? Just another lie!!

Hugs!!
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Lea,
Are you sure are mothers aren't related?

I grew up hearing about how my mother was going to win the lotto; the sad part is she almost did. The shop were she worked at did a lotto pool: however, the day my mother was to give her money for the lotto she fell down 2 flight of stirs at her work. Well guess what, they won! Each person won just a little over 5 million dollars. She didn't see a dime!! She sued her work and won 25,000 which was gone in less than 2 weeks. My mother would tell you she doesn't care about money, but she is use to ask me to give her money. I would asked her "why?" "You don't go any where! I do all your shopping!" So now, she will ask, "will you buy me this or that?" I'll answer " we'll see, let me think about it!" That is the very line she use to say to us kids! LOL

Speaking of diamond rings. My dad had a 3ct (I think, it might be 2ct) specially made for her. This ring is massive in size and it is a one of a kind. Whenever people made comments on it she would say, " oh this old thing. My husband couldn't afford to get me a bigger ring!" I use to think "REALLY!! If you don't want it lady give it to me!!" I do now have the ring in a safe because I was afraid if she got into a car accident (when she use to drive), or end up in the hospital or my loser brother would take it. She use to tell me that she would swallow the ring before she would give it to me or anybody else. She can't swallow small pieces of meat, little long that big azz rock! She would choke on it! Now that I have the ring she doesn't even care about it anymore.

My dad and his family were Irish catholic and she had to convert to catholic to marry him. It is my belief that was the only reason she went to church and says, "she knows Jesus." My mother is always telling me that she is not afraid of dying, but I think she is or she thinks that she is above God's laws! Because she refuses to repent! She states that she hasn't done anything wrong! I tell her "Wow mother, it must be nice to be so prefect!" Than she gets mad at me and tells me, "I'm not prefect." That is when I say, "ok" and walk out of the room, usually shaking my head. I just pray that God doesn't hold the charges against her for what she has done to me, for she really doesn't know what she is doing. 😕

Lea, my mother use to tell me the same thing. How the other girls were jealous of me and the only person I could really trust was her. In truth, she was the last person I should have trusted!


The funny part about all this is: NPD people think they are SO different and SO special, but they are all alike. Selfish, mean, nasty, hateful, passive-aggressive, manipulate, jealous, competitive, liars and think they are queen bees.

Hang in there! Someday we'll be free from them. I hope!🥴

Hugs!!!
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Lea,

My NM used to tell me the same thing!!
All of the other girls hated me out of jealousy.!
When I was 16, she actually told me that SHE was jealous of me!
Who does that??
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Hey Shell, glad to hear that I am helping you learn about your NM via my experiences with my NM. "Funny" thing is, her mother was devoutly religious; my mother made terrible fun of her all the time saying it wasn't 'real' and that she was only 'pretending' to be religious, and that she was petrified to die. Which was not true at all. Grandma died at 91 with a smile on her face because she was looking forward to eternal life, which she had said her whole life. Nowadays, it's my MOTHER who's petrified to die. Says she wants to ALL the time, and will jump out the window (gee, sorry you're on the 1st floor mom) to kill herself, but in reality, she is constantly seeing the doctor for a WART on her knuckle which she's had for 5 years! Hundreds & hundreds of $$$$$ have been spent on this, dozens of bottles of Compound W, 2 'skin lesion removals', and STILL the wart persists! So much for 'wanting to die', huh?

Anyway, there is one thing in this world my mother WORSHIPS. Adores, lusts after, longs for more than anything. It's MONEY. She loves to talk about winning the lottery. As if it would change her life, at 94. I've often asked her, and so has DH, HOW would winning the lottery change your life ma? She can't answer that, she just knows she'd be HAPPY then, with all that money. She talks about 'being rich' with stars in her eyes. Meanwhile, she's always had a nice life; cruises, a nice home, new cars, etc. She lives in a Memory Care ALF that costs $6500 a month without all the extra's she 'needs' on a monthly basis. All the stuff she can't LIVE without, Chriscat, the endless perfumes and toiletries, etc. Sigh.

Anyone else's NM super obsessed with money? It's all she talks about! How much things cost, how come the ladies in MC have DIAMOND RINGS (Meanwhile, she has a 2.5 carat nearly perfect pear shaped solitaire HERSELF!!), how does someone 'get all her money?' as if she's POOR, living the way she does!!! It's all JEALOUSY based, which NMs are infamous for, too............everything is about jealousy & comparisons: who has more, who looks better, who's thinner, who's prettier, etc. Sad but true. I grew up hearing how EVERYONE was JEALOUS of me and that there is NO SUCH thing as a 'friend'; the only friend I would ever have in my LIFE was my mother.

:(
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I can identify with this hoarding. For example, my mother has boxes and boxes of everyday toiletries of the same type (shampoos, soaps, creams, make up, say) that are opened and half used, as well as boxes of unopened stuff too. It's like a constant desire to treat oneself with something new rather than use up the older stuff first. She complained about wanting her bedroom decorating a year or so ago (only because a neighbour was getting hers done). I told her we could do nothing until she started to use up some of her stuff so as to create some space to work in. Nothing happened, as she cannot bear to part with anything. I wondered if, with a narcissist, this is linked to not being able to "give", only to "take"? Sorting out a room would involve "giving" stuff away - to a charity shop or the refuse collection. And constantly buying more stuff presumably feeds the narcissist's sense of entitlement? She has a good sized bedroom and more storage space than I and my husband share, but it is still not enough and things are spilling out everywhere. I think it is the same with her prescription medication - and as this is free for her in the UK there is no incentive to only order what she needs, so she orders everything each time, regardless of whether she needs it or not. Clothes too, include things that are decades old and never worn. I am looking forward to sorting all of this stuff out when she moves out.
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Lea,
You are right on! My mother was a little hoarder when I was a kid, but as time moved on, she started to hoard more and more. It got so out of hand that a 4 story house became so full that there was no room for anyone else and her truck was full and so was the garage. It took 2 big dumpsters, many trips to St. Vincent, and we still will need 1 to 2 dumpsters and many trips to donate. I have given away so many things that she bought with the price tags still on them. What a waste!!!

Lea, you just answer another question I was wondering about. My mother would tell you she knows Jesus, but I find that hard to believe. This morning I woke up wondering "Is my mother a believer?" I believe the answer is no! So, thank you for answering that question! Perhaps, God is using you to help me make some kind of sense out of all this.

You are correct that NM have nothing to draw from therefore, leaving them; empty! I am starting to think they are empty shells that walk around making life miserable for everyone who comes into contact with them.


Llama,
I have no doubt that I won't be disappointed in making your cake. I am just worried that I will mess it up. I am not the best baker. I will let you know how it turns out. 😋

Xray,
I am glad that I inspire you to bake some cookies. 😋 I have the same cookbook too! Haha
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Lea,

You're so right!!

So many of us try to fill the immense hole that we've been left with.

Hoarding, drugs, alcohol... None of it will help until you help yourself!!!

The good news is that there can be healing! There is hope!!

I'm so grateful for the positive feedback that I have received from you and many, many others!!
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Shell: You won't be disappointed with the chocolate cake when you make it. That cake was eaten fast one time at a family reunion.
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Shell says, " She is internal empty and she thinks external things will fill her, but it won't...it can't! I could give my mother every material & emotional thing in the world and it still won't fill her. She is a black hole! All our mothers are!!!"

This, THIS is why many of these women become HOARDERS. They buy & buy & buy 'stuff' to fill that empty void inside of themselves. And they never DO, which is why they keep buying more & more. Taking more & more. Nothing is ever 'enough' b/c nothing can fill an internal void.

Happiness & peace come from within. In these women, there is nothing 'within' to draw upon. No real sense of 'religion' either, I have found. My mother talks a good talk, but has no real BELIEF to back it up. So there's no spirituality to draw upon either, further deepening the void.

It's sad, really. It's a lack inside of THEM that translates to demanding more from US, which we can never give them b/c there is no such thing as enough or something WE can give them. Nobody has that to give.

I call it the 'if only syndrome'. If only I had............money, a house, a child, a husband, a good job.............THEN I would be happy. So the NM gets those things and is STILL just as unhappy as she was before she had them. Then starts raging at US to 'give me what I NEED' when she herself has no idea WHAT that may be!
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Thanks Shell,

I have my grandmothers Betty Crocker cook book from 1953.

There's an awesome Christmas cookie recipe that I have used several times. Labor intensive, but Yummy!!

You've inspired me!! Maybe I'll do some baking!!
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Xray,
I can't sing, but I sure do love to dance.

I usually bake brownie. Sometimes I will bake cookies. This year, I am going to try to bake Llama chocolate cake recipe. Like I said, I am an ok baker. Cooking is where I shine.

I pray you get your voice back, so that you can sing.
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Shell,

I love to sing and dance too!!
I've done a couple musicals at our community theater.
Always, Patsy Cline is slated for February. If my voice comes back(I have lost my singing voice with surgery 2 months ago), I plan on auditioning. I LOVE Patsy!!

I love to bake, but then I have to eat it!!! Lol

What your favorite thing to bake?😋
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Shell,

Don’t give up. You will have your freedom back one day.

We will all celebrate with you. You will feel enormous relief!
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Xray,
I love cooking and baking. I am a very good cook. I am an ok baker. There is something about cooking that calms me down. It reliefs my stress level. Ok, the next thing I tell you, it will probably make you laugh, but I dance in my basement. It might me 5 minutes...it might be 20 minutes. My sig-other has caught me singing out of tune and dancing around. I just put on one of my YouTube play list and let the music take me away. It is ok to laugh at me! My honey laughs at me when he catches me doing it. It helps me to get out my frustration and tries me out. I play Mahjong on my phone. I listen to the Word of God when I need hope, reassurance, or I just feel like killing my mother and hate my life.

The one thing I have always done is make my bed inviting. Probably sounds crazy, but I am insomniac and even though I am on meds to help me sleep. I still make sure that my bed and bedroom is my safe haven. Very good quality sheets, pillows, and blankets. Nice warm cozy fannel sheets in the winter and really soft cool sheets for summer. My sheets are dark colors because that is what makes me comfortable. I have a therapeutic candles I burn when I need it. I just bought a little Christmas tree that lights up for my dresser. If things get to overwhelming for me I give myself a time-out in my bedroom. I also write and sometimes I will post them on "On my Mind" thread. Get lost in a good movie or book. I also have some really nice hand lotions. I just bought a bottle of "Twisted Peppermint" from Bath and Body Works. It is one of my favorites and it makes me feel special.

What I want? To not had/have a NPD mother and a shot of NHWM vaccine. The real thing I want is 'My Freedom' back. Xray, I'll have to get back to you on this one.


Sitting here writing this made me think about my dad. He worked 70 to 100 hrs in the restaurant business. But he always did things for himself. Whether it was buying himself a new toy, his idea of a toy was a new TV, Boise system or some lawn thing. He worked on the yard, worked on the house, made things from old pipes or molds for concrete. He would buy himself a new jacket and we always went on day trips, three day trips and vacations. My point is, he showed me and he did tell me "you have to take care of yourself." I guess, I am a lot like him. I do make it a point for me time.


Xray, you matter too! You have to learn to crawl before you can run. It is very good that you made a decision about where to go for dinner, even if you really don't care...it is a start!

I will have to find that book. Thank you Chrisacat and Xray. Lea pass the ice cream!

Our NPD mothers are bottleless pits that can never be filled...EVER! We can't love them enough, we can't do enough for them, nothing is 'Ever' enough. I am learning that it really doesn't matter what I do for my mother it will never be enough! She is internal empty and she thinks external things will fill her, but it won't...it can't! I could give my mother every material & emotional thing in the world and it still won't fill her. She is a black hole! All our mothers are!!!
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Caregivers shouldn’t be expected to run on fumes.

It’s important to refuel. I wish there was a vaccine that would eliminate guilt.

God knows many caregivers need an injection that would destroy guilt from their lives!
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Chriscat: Love the examples you gave us of things you do for yourself! Nothing wrong with a little 'self-indulgence' from time to time, either. Women have been taught since birth that it's 'selfish' to take care of ourselves. And to even use a word like 'self-indulgent' to describe an activity we may choose to do (not that you're doing that, just saying.......lots of women DO!) is over the top ridiculous. We care for, and deal with, narcissistic personalities who have NO concept or care about being The Center of The Universe 24/7, yet here WE are, needing permission to do ONE 5 minute activity for ourselves per DAY and then wondering if we're being 'selfish' for doing so! Needing a therapist to tell us it's okay! MIND BOGGLING, isn't it? I think I myself will reserve the word 'self-indulgent' for sitting down with a gallon of ice cream & a spoon and eating the whole thing! :)

Jodi: I can SO relate to you saying that all you want is for others to be happy. I learned long, long ago that no matter WHAT I do for my NM or how MUCH I do, it's never 'enough' anyway, so what's the point?? Oh, I still DO for her, I just stopped feeling the need to jump thru the fiery hoops over & over again, you know? It's either 'good enough' or it's not......not my 'fault' if it's not. And what I find, time & time again, esp as her dementia worsens, is that I'm Always Wrong. No Matter What I Do. So I'm choosing to do less and less.
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Well done xrayjodib! You're on the first steps towards exercising your right to a life of your own! Totally understand that feeling of " anything will do" regarding your own choices about food, what you want to do in your life, and giving yourself little kindness for a change. There is usually so much "self centred noise " from a narcissist that your needs and wants are crushed and dismissed as irrelevant and self indulgent, especially when you are sucked into running around after them. I started to tackle this by writing down one thing (yes, even just one thing was a big challenge!) that I would do for myself and that I wanted to do each day. This has been much more challenging during Covid but I have stuck to it anyway. I call it my "Daily Activity". It varies each day but it will always be something that is good for my soul and gives me some happiness. Examples are: a coffee in the garden, gardening, a walk, a good book or film on rainy days, photography, sketching, baking, a history course I have started which I can pick up and put down whenever I want. You can see some of these are 5 minute activities, others are much longer, so there is something for every day depending on what else is going on. The point is that this is MY time and mine alone. I will have no interruptions or other attempts to undermine this. Some of these things are activities I used to enjoy years ago before my needs and wants took a back seat, others are new projects like my history course. None of them are self indulgent, just part of a healthier life and a good step forward in putting yourself higher up on the agenda. Sending good wishes!!
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Shell,

Questions my therapist has asked that I still can't answer:
1) What do You do for yourself?
(Uh, ???)
2) What do You want?
(Uh, I don't know!)

It made me realize that the only thing I want is for everyone else to be happy! Even at the expense of my health! That's not right!

So I am making a conscious effort to make decisions about what I want! And what I need!

When my hubby asks me "where do you want to eat?", instead of saying "I don't care. Whatever you want. " I just throw out the first thing that comes to mind!! Even though I still don't care, at least I made a choice!!

It maybe a small step, but it's a step in the right direction.

You have worth!! And you deserve to feel valued!! Your opinion matters!!
You deserve to have your needs met. Even if you have to do it yourself!!

Power on girl!!!
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Shell, I am glad you are finding help here. I don’t think the damage a narcissist has done ever goes away, even if you remove them from your life. I do think though that with the right support: therapy, counselling, self help books and websites, plus advice from this forum, you can spot the signs, feelings and behaviours in yourself and deal with them using a variety of techniques. In the UK I have been able to self refer myself to access an online Cognitive Behaviour Therapy course. This helped me to identify and deal with the various overwhelming thoughts and feelings I had about my mother’s behaviour, and to put in place some coping strategies. This is an ongoing process though, as there will always be times when the upsetting feelings come back, and when they do, I have to go back to what I’ve learned, and apply the techniques. It is not always easy, and I have to remind myself to do this when things are tough. I do feel that any time spent in identifying and recognising these problems is time well spent. It might be the first time in your life that you have been able to do this, as victims of narcissism are conditioned to believe that their feelings are irrelevant and unimportant. But it is an important first step, as it’s the beginning of putting your own needs above the wants of the narcissist, and recognising that your feelings matter.
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Shell,

I would highly recommend the book " Will I Ever be Good Enough ", by Karyl McBride.

Someone reccomended it to me and I found it very helpful!!
It prompted me to see a therapist.
Therapy is teaching me coping skills and how to set boundaries.
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OMG, Lea it all makes sense now! You answered the question that has been rolling around in my head for a year! My mother never told my dad about my brother hitting, bully and calling me nasty names because she got off on it; furthermore, the question "Did my mother get off on my pain?" Now, I have the answer and it makes me want to throw up!! I guess, I still have a lot to learn on the emotional side of things--if you know what I mean! I also realize that she causes problems just to throw me off and make things harder on me. What she does not realize that I have an autoimmune disorder and the stress can and has put me in the hospital and if I die there will be no one to take care of her, which is why I am moving out in a year. I learned a few years ago that my mother has and will throw me under the bus, h3ll she'll throw whoever she has to under the bus so she can come out smelling like a rose and I am always the bad guy, but I am learning she really is the bad guy and it doesn't matter who knows that or not because the truth is the truth! God knows the truth!!


Xray,
I feel like I will never get back to myself again. That strong, independent, self-confidence person I was before moving in with her. I never feel validated and I guess I haven't sense my dad passed away. Thank you Xray for the validation.

Thank you both for helping me understanding why I feel the way I do & with the games my mother is playing. I am not crazy; she really is playing games!!

I have learned so much with the help of Golden, Polarbear, Chriscat, and the both of you and so many others. How blessed I am to have such a great support team!

Hugs!💚❤
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Jodi....yeah huh? The kisses and Love You's I hear my mother giving out to others is nauseating. Soon as the door closes, she's cutting them apart with a knife most times! Sweet to their face, stabbing them in the back when they turn away. Typical.
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Lea,

My Mom has done the same at her ALF. If they have bad news for her (ie. Continued lockdown), they'll call me and ask me to tell!
The front desk staff is afraid of her!!

We can be on a phone conversation with her ranting and complaining about literally everything, someone will come into her room to deliver her meals and as they leave she calls them sweetie and tells them she loves them! Then, without skipping a beat goes right back to her rant!!
It makes want to vomit!

Shell,

I used to question myself constantly!! But the more I learn about NPD, I feel validated.
Even my therapist has validated my feelings. Says this is totally classic NPD.
You're not wrong to feel the way you do!!😘
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Shell.....that's part of the facade they uphold; they're wonderful & fabulous & sweet-as-pie to others but save the ugliness for us, or those who they're 'closest' to. The mask drops off with us, and all we see are the sharp teeth. The whole idea is to keep us off balance, to keep us questioning ourselves; to keep up the facade that they're these wonderful fabulous people and WE are The Bad Guys. It's part of the NPD games they play that they're so good at. They are happy, too, to throw US under the bus in order to keep up the show that they're the Good Guy & we're the Bad Guy. I don't try to convince others that my mother is an ugly person with sharp teeth............b/c then I'M looked at as The Bad Guy by THEM also. You are right about that. My mother has her flying monkeys doing her bidding at the Memory Care ALF and they think she's the bees knees. UNTIL her mask slips.......and then they're shocked & appalled by what they see. I'll never forget one time there was an all out showdown in AL when the nurse cornered her; told her, point blank, you have been requiring TWO people to assist you for the past few days, we need to address that. My mother vehemently denied it, called her a 'dirty liar', literally bared her teeth, and had the young caregiver in tears after calling her 'two faced' and lots of other horrible names. These two women were SHOCKED. I just snorted to myself. THIS, THIS is the woman I see DAILY and have to deal with ALL the time, for the past 63 years! Anyway, the young caregiver went to the Exec Director and asked to be switched out of my mother's area and into a new one, just so she didn't have to deal with her anymore.

Anyway, we've been conditioned from birth to NEVER think 'badly' about our mothers; to never question them, to never feel that they're anything but perfect. So it's natural for us to second guess ourselves. It's part of the survivor process we all go through.

Check out this link: 25 Signs you’re dealing with a covert passive-aggressive narcissist


https://lifelessons.co/personal-development/covertpassiveaggressivenarcissist/#3

I was oohing and aahhing when I read these 25 signs, recognizing most of them. The one that hit home hardest was: They don’t want you to be happy.
They feel better when you’re not doing well or when you’re in pain.
The only time my mother acts half way decently towards me is when I tell her I don't feel good! I noticed that a long time ago; so I pull that tool out of my toolbox to use quite often. As soon as she hears that I'm unwell, SHE is suddenly feeling MUCH more chipper in general. Sad but true.
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Yes, Lea I do know what you are saying. Those questions you posted is the questions that goes through my mind everyday. The sad part is that I wasn't questioning myself until I moved back home and now I don't feel sure of anything anymore! However, I never knew that my mother was like this; she hidden it so well that it is scary!

I agree with you on your advice to Chris. Anyone who poo poo or minimize our feelings our abusers themselves!

I also have a hard time believing that people believe me. The outside world think my mother was/is a great mom and butter wouldn't melt in her mouth! Only if they really knew her!
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Shell; your comment, 'What I am trying to say, some days I feel like a survivor and other days not so much.' I have noticed myself that part of being a survivor of narcissistic abuse is that we question ourselves. "Is it that bad?" "Did it really happen the way I remember it?" Classic survivor thinking.

Gaslighting from the NPD mother contributes VERY HEAVILY to the self-doubt and the questioning. The wondering, the second guessing. Do you know what I mean?

Chriscat: Validation for our feelings is SUCH an important factor in healing. And why we get SO ANGRY when others like to poo poo us away or to say we're putting 'a label' on something, as if to make light of it. Ha ha ha. What a silly little nothing you're bellyaching about. THIS type of behavior is classic ABUSER behavior. The DH who tells the wife 'if only' SHE didn't provoke HIM, HE wouldn't have hit HER. It was HER fault. See how the abuser plays mind games with her victim? The woman who gets raped & SHE is getting blamed for 'dressing provocatively' and causing that rape HERSELF.

Anyone who minimizes our pain as survivors of abuse of ANY KIND is an abuser THEMSELF. It's not just ignorance or the pure love of argument that makes a person insist there's no such thing as abuse, it's a classic trait of BEING an abuser that causes it. Look out for victim blaming & victim shaming as classic signs of an abuser.

I guess one can say, "Know that you know that you know."
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Great information!!

Thanks Chris!!!
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