Today I had my first appointment with an actual therapist (not a counselor).
Even though one hour wasn't long enough to spew out everything I need to talk about, this woman completely picked up on 2 truly major points.
1) Even ONE of the stressors I have been dealing with over the last year is more than enough to warrant therapy!
2) I have been the "caregiver " for everyone in my family since I was 12 years old!
She asked me what I do for myself?
I had absolutely no answer!!
Hence therapy!! Lol
Caring for a narcissistic LO is a labor of love!
Not because they will love us back, but because we need to love ourselves!!
How do you keep caring selflessly for your selfish LO?
What do you do for yourself?
(((Hugs)))
I read your post about Cognitive dissonance and wonder if that was what I was experiencing when I go back and forth on if it's her or me. The answer would be yes!
I can't even imagine living so secretive. Now I know why my mother never talked about anything of her life as a kid or about her family and More Importantly, why "Everything" is a secret. Everything she eats is a secret! Everything she does is a secret!! Everything she does is a secret!!! I never understood why. Some things she does nobody would even care, but to her it's a secret! Shh Don't tell anyone that I (mother) ate a donut and I think really mother...who cares that you ate a donut! LOL
In my head, if I went back to 1993 (I was in my late teens) I could have told my dad that my brother calls me nasty names and use to bully me and mother did nothing about it. My dad could have change things or at least it would have made him aware that something was wrong. But I think, I think this way pulling the responsibilities on to myself or it is the little girl in me thinking she could have change things if 'only' she would have said something!!! You are probably right...nothing would have changed! Sigh!
I told you about the orange sauce because again, I was wondering was this an example of her forcing her emotions on to me. I really didn't think it was because I gave my dad credit for something, but your right...it is both! Her putting her emotions on me and being a narc.
A month ago, my mother baited me and I took the bait; however, I looked right at her and said, " dad raised a smart, capable, tough daughter. He didn't raise a dumbing." She got so mad her face turned red. If looks could kill I would be dead. I really couldn't understand why she was so mad. I told her before that she raised my brother and dad raised me because she never could be bothered with me. Now, I understand why she was so mad. I walked out of the room thinking "yup, how does that taste!"
I do planing to read the 25 things of Narcissistic people. I know I have the wrong words, but you sent me the link. My plan is to break it down so I won't get to overwhelmed. I have no intention of fixing my mother. I didn't break her and I can't fix her. But I do want to fix myself as much as I can. My dad always said, "knowledge is power." And your right, I do need to learn a narc tactics and what she is doing to me. My dad used to tell me "learn as much as you can about your enemies. You need to know what your up against." I also know that you are trying to help me.
The one thing that I am confused about is...you talk about narc staying detach from their emotions, but from what I have read that narc don't feel emotions the way you and I do. So do narc have emotions and they just try to stay detach? Because I do know that they are not capable of loving anyone or anything!
Thank you. I know I may seem slow at learning all this, but it is just a lot for me to take in. When my dad died it is like my world got turned upside down and I never had a moment to balance myself or even grasp at what is going on around me. Everything has changed in my life and keeps changing and it is like I can't keep up!( So, thank you for being patience with me.💖
They're afraid of emotions.
Narcissists try to boost their self-confidence by imagining that they're completely self-sufficient and unaffected by feelings. They can't feel vulnerable. If they're hurt or upset, they lash out in anger and become condescending, pointing out the other person's flaws.
Narcissism, in both its grandiose and vulnerable versions, is characterized by a constant interplay of excessive pride and shame, two self-conscious emotions.
For my mother, I see either shame, excessive pride or rage......nothing else, really.
The 25 signs of a passive aggressive covert narc is AH MAZING. That's the one I was oohing and aaahing over, saying yup, yup, yup. Sad but true.
Listen, just know that I'm no expert in all this crap myself......just from what I read and learn. Then in talking with others, it all comes together. It's only been maybe 5 years I've realized what's been going on with my NM and I'm 63!!! I have all the patience in the world....because you help me as much as I help you by sharing your stories. It's how we heal, you know?
Chris....yes, now I remember you are an only child too! Lucky ducks the 2 of us, huh? Then I wonder if things may have even been worse if there were siblings we were pitted against. Who knows?
I can fill you in on having siblings. I often envied ‘only’ children.
My mother favored her sons so I not only had her criticisms but also my brothers who wanted to remain in her good graces.
It’s not uncommon for one child to be singled out.
My MIL had a horrible narcissistic mother. She was an only child.
She felt as if the weight of the world fell on her shoulders alone.
She adored her father who was a kind and loving man.
He begged his wife to speak to a psychiatrist or a priest for help.
She would never go because she NEVER felt that she was at fault.
I always found it so sad that my MIL felt it was her responsibility to cater to her mother’s every whim so her mom wouldn’t lash out at her father that she loved.
Once she confided in me that she would lie in bed wishing that her dad would divorce her mom so her dad could be happy.
He was a devout Catholic and divorce was seriously frowned upon at that time.
I am glad that the church no longer feels as strongly about divorce.
Divorce is now acceptable in situations of abuse, emotional or physical, along with other situations that cannot be resolved with counseling.
Once, she said to me that I was lucky to have siblings. I had to laugh, then I explained how it wasn’t any easier with siblings.
My MIL and I had a lovely relationship. We were able to speak frankly with each other. We understood each other. We learned from each other.
In many ways she was more like a mom to me than my own mom.
She died too young, 68, (Non Hodgkin’s Lymphoma.) I missed her terribly.
She knew my oldest daughter but died before my youngest was born. She was a fabulous grandmother to my child.
I too read the article you posted, and it was insightful, validating, and ultimately sad.
Here is something that is kind of interesting. I've mentioned before that my DH is a man with Asperger's. I did not know this when we first got together, and it would be many years before I found out there was a name for some of his oddities. A very common Aspie trait is to be emotionally flat, and unavailable. There were times I would question if he really loved me, but then other actions would prove that he absolutely did love me.
My sister also married a man with Asperger's. She also didn't know when she got with him. It wasn't until they had their son, and he was diagnosed that it came to light that my BIL was also an Aspie.
So 10 years into our marriages my sister and I were both learning that we both ended up with Aspie men. What are the chances? Also I should add that the divorce rate for Aspie/NT marriages is sky high. Most people NEED emotional reciprocation in their partner. Yet we have both had long term successful marriages. I'm convinced that it's because we were raised by our narcissistic mother not to expect emotional support.
Don't get me wrong, my husband does support me, but not in an emotional way. I used to wonder how I would feel if something really tragic happened and he couldn't be there for me emotionally, how that would go. Well, this situation with my mother has been HELL and he has stepped up in ways I could not have imagined. I literally could NOT do this at all if he wasn't helping me.
Growing up an only child, and adopted, was extremely isolating and I felt very abandoned. At the same time, it enabled me to become fiercely INDEPENDENT b/c I was able to find joy in the fact that I was NOT of my mother's BLOOD. Proof that some good does come out of every bad situation.
Piper: I find it very interesting what you say about your DH and your sister's DH both having Aspergers. Guess what? I too married a man with Aspergers! We stayed together for 22 years before I divorced him. He refused to get diagnosed for his issues and it all became too much for me to bear. What you say about being 'emotionally flat & unavailable' is 1000% SPOT ON. And, what are the odds now that THREE of us who've had NM mothers wound up marrying THREE Aspie men??????????????????????????????????????
Holy cow. That's all I can say to that.
Anyway, after the divorce, DH did get diagnosed so he could quit his very high paying job and get on disability. He was dxed with Aspergers and Schizotypal. So it wasn't just the one but TWO very difficult conditions he was dealing with, or not dealing with, that led me to divorce him. He had a lot of odd traits, to say the least. I will say, when I was very very sick with asthma in Florida, he packed us up and moved us back to Colo. all by himself. So he was there for me, just not emotionally, you know? We have 2 kids together also.
Blows my mind.
I wonder how many people who are Aspies aren’t diagnosed or aren’t told by their parents that they are aspies.
I know a woman who has two children on the spectrum, one Aspie, one severe autism.
This mom didn’t even tell her child she was an aspie until she was around 12. She was diagnosed at 3.
She neglected the aspie and was obsessed with her child with severe autism. Of course, he needed a lot of attention but so did her daughter.
The aspie eventually ended up moving to her dad’s house. Her mom and dad divorced when the children were young.
It’s a long story, but she was better off with her dad.
Her daughter is super smart, gifted singer and a soloist at her church.
She thrived after living with her dad. She’s now married with a child of her own and is very happy.
My MIL confided in me that people didn’t understand why she felt as she did about her mom and judged her. People back then thought everyone should automatically love their parents even though they were cruel or had mental disorders. That’s crazy!
Some people thought she was awful for wanting her parents to get a divorce.
I don’t think that she was awful at all. Why stay in a broken marriage?
My MIL knew that she was safe speaking to me and that I understood.
She also knew that I didn’t blab her business to everyone.
We respected each other.
No one should be ashamed of ending a bad marriage.
I wish my grandfather in law in law would have stood up my grandmother in law!
Want to hear something funny? My MIL used to say that she was surprised that she was born. Her mother was not affectionate in the least. She said that her mom must have come home tipsy from a New Year’s Eve party for her to be conceived!
Her mom used to say that she wanted more children but my MIL didn’t believe that.
Just kidding, but there is some truth to it and we know it.
I can understand why you divorced. There are challenges with these men. I’ve adapted to a near nonexistent couple social life together because my DH doesn’t need or want it at all. I do my own thing sometimes and have a few good friends but he’s not social at all. I’m amazed how he gets along better with my mom than I do, he doesn’t lose his cool like I do, which has been very helpful in this $hit show!
I remember my ex loved to play war games; the board games that had about 1000 pcs. He'd set these games up in a spare bedroom, all over the floor, and then he'd spend an entire weekend holed up in there, playing that solitary game. I could never understand it. Here he was, a 20-something year old, holed up in a bedroom by himself for days on end, fixated on a war game. He had dozens of them, too. I had to force him to come out of there to EAT. No social skills at ALL; he preferred solitary hobbies and introspective thoughts IYKWIM.
I know what you mean.
I had wished I was an only child. I have a brother who is 6 years older and we were close when I was little. However, everything change when I turned 7 yrs old. My brother started to shove me, bully me and hit me. My mother would see him do it and say nothing to him. My brother tied me up to the outdoor TV antenna a few times when I was young. Once, I was out there for over an hour and my mother would untie me every time saying nothing to my brother. Growing up, I thought she told my dad and he did nothing about it. By the time, I became a teenager my brother was calling me the worst names and yet again, she did nothing and never told my dad. My brother hates my guts because my mother brainwashed him into hating me. It took my dad to die for me to figure all this out! My brother has had black men threatening me. The last one was this last summer. I was sitting on my step on the side of the house and a black guy on a bike stop at the end of my drive way and asked me if I was "name?" I asked, "who wants to know?" He said, "yeah, your "name" I got you bit@h!" This guy never step foot on my property. I told him I am not your average white girl!!! He said, "he would be seeing me around!" I told him that I look forward to it and I never saw him again! My brother doesn't understand that when I worked in bars I had to deal with black men trying to intimate me and try to get free drinks! However, I now carry a knife with me and I am back to kicking a bag around! My brother wants to hurt me and I never did anything to him because I knew if I did, I would have gotten into trouble with my dad. My brother has egged my Jeep three times, my truck once, and has tried to break into this house twice. We just installed a cameras around the house hoping to catch him. We also have the Ring on the front door! When my SO and I move out we are taking the Ring and cameras with us!! We paid for them and my SO installed them!
Yes, Chris I am figuring things out about my mother. I knew years ago that the roles were reverse, but I didn't know this was a narc thing. I do now! Now when I interact with my mother I do not make eye contact and I talk to her like she is one of those annoying drunks that sit at the bar telling me their problems. I say a lot of yup, you don't say, really, oh that's to bad. It is scary that I can do this without really hearing what my mother is saying and get my timing right and the short answers correctly! I never thought being a bartender would have gave me practice at dealing with my NM!!
"What happens to a narcissist's original victim has set boundaries and is no longer under their control. Do they find a new victim?" I would say, yes, if they can or maybe they curl up and die from boredom!
Lea, That makes since about our mothers detaching from their emotions. I stayed up late last night googling about the different types of NPDs. I have read about them before, but that was years ago and of course, I had no clue that my mother was one!
I have seen shame, pride, and self-hatred in NM. But I have only seen shame a few times. I too see the rage in her. I read that they can't handle life big stresses. But man can they cause them!!!
I know your not an expert. But you do have personal experiences and what you have learned. That counts a lot!
If you Lea, and Chriscat, NHWM, Xray and whoever else comes on this thread hopefully we all can learn from one another. Our stories...our mothers are so similar! I laugh some times when I think about how my mother thinks she is SO DIFFERENT, but she's not...she is like the rest of the narc!!
Thank you for all your support.
I had my ups and downs with my brothers too.
I played with my younger brother for awhile when we were younger too.
My oldest brother pulled me in my wagon when I asked him to. He would play catch with my ball too.
When he started using drugs though he stole anything of value.
If you cherished something, you better place it under your pillow or it would be gone to sell for drug money.
The next oldest was awful to me. We were never close.
My cousins that lived with us were nice to me.
My mom ALWAYS took up for my brothers! She NEVER punished them and was annoyed if I said anything to her about them.
Daddy worked a lot, sometimes double shifts so I couldn’t go to him.
My brothers would play ‘Cowboys and Indians.’
They took my favorite dolls, tie them to a chair, scalp them, take mom’s makeup and use it for ‘war paint’ and laugh about it when I would cry.
My favorite stuffed animal (sock monkey) was thrown over the fence where a dog chewed it to shreds.
My bike was ridden recklessly and broken.
Mom would leave me with my 2nd oldest brother when she went to the hospital to see relatives.
She told him to feed me because I wasn’t old enough to use the stove.
I would tell him that I was hungry and he ignored me or told me that I was bothering him.
I ended up eating a few cookies or crackers.
There were tons of things like that. They got to participate in sports, music lessons, etc.
Nothing for me except for a brief time in scouts.
It was terribly confusing to me. I had several chores.
They only had the garbage to put out once a week.
I was taken to horror movies as a very young child because that is what they wanted to see.
I had nightmares! They laughed at me for being scared and called me a baby.
The worst part was everyone told my mom, “Your little girl is so precious. The only girl. She must be the ‘princess’ of the family.”
Yeah, many times I wished I was an only child.
Although there was the usual complaining and nitpicking, I have become better at dealing with her insults.
The real drama happened hours after we took her home!!
She called me to tell me that someone put a heavy desk in front of her door to keep her from leaving her room. Because she left the facility, she now has to isolate for 2 weeks. She said she tried to call someone, but had to leave a message. She was hysterical!!
I made a phone call based on what she told me and the person I spoke with said she was going to call the nursing supervisor at home. Mom called me 4 times in the course of 1 hour, but refused to pull the emergency cord.
Someone finally came and moved "the heavy desk".
Next morning, the Director called me. My Mom had ripped her a new one and this woman was in tears!!
Turns out it wasn't a desk! It was in fact a cart with wheels for the staff to put Moms meals on so they don't have to enter her room due to isolation.
I felt so bad for this poor woman who has worked so hard to keep every resident safe that I sent her flowers hoping it would brighten her day!
Way to go Mom!!! Ugh!!
I am sorry that your mother put you through so much bs over a food cart. Ugh is right! Hopefully the flowers that you sent to the woman will not only make her feel better, but will also send a message that you do not condoned this kind of behavior from your mother.
Send you hugs!!!
NHWM,
Yes it is very confusing as a child to see our siblings get special treatment in every form and we got nothing from our mothers, but neglect and abuse. You grow up thinking that there is something wrong with you! I imagine that this is part of our mothers conditioning us to make us believe that we are undeserving of their love; therefore, we must earn it (even though we can never earn it).
My parents took in 3 boys who are brothers. They didn't always stay with us as their grandparents live a few houses down. However, when their grandparents needed a break or the boys just wanted to stay here they were always welcomed. The oldest who was here more times then not was always good to me. Whenever he was around my mother and brother were nice to me. Crazy isn't it? It was like my mother & brother knew that this boy might have told my dad what they were doing to me or something. Anyways, this boy and I became close and I actually thought of him more as a brother than my own. He taught me how to defend myself, to stick up for myself, how to swim and so much more. When he was around my life wasn't so bad, but when he left as he offended did to go live with his dad or grandparents my life went back to crap. All of it was just confusing as a child.
I too, remember people telling me "oh, your the baby of the family...how sweet...you must be getting spoiled!" Man were they wrong!
My brother never liked feeding me either. Sometimes he wouldn't feed me, but make me tell my parents that he did feed me or he would beat me up and he would have because he knew my mother wouldn't have stop him and my dad would have never known! I did always found something to eat from the fridge.
Sending you hugs!
At least the visit was okay. Whew.
My mom was here yesterday again and wanted to stay extra long. I'm really getting sick of being around her so much! She is just not pleasant to be around. Little things are starting to set me off again. I made a NYE dinner (pork, etc) and she wanted to know what we were having today too! I told her nothing because I am laying low and cleaning decorations, and she gave me a nasty pout look! Yesterday was the 3rd holiday dinner I've made and included her, I need a break! Plus other dinners in between! My husband was standing behind her and motioned to me with his hands to "calm down".
Once again I am starting to freak out that she has NO life of her own! I do not want to be her only source of socialization! I need to talk to her about hiring a companion once a week as soon as we can do it safely with covid, and I know it will go over like a lead balloon. I don't even know how to start the conversation. Huge sigh.
I hope I'm not the only one getting a break today. I hope you ladies are too.
I was manipulated to be caregiver and suffered greatly as a result. They claimed to have no plan for their future care.
Received vicious verbal abuse from mom each time I left to go home or even go get coffee for 10 minutes. My complaints and tears were ignored by dad and brother.
I am on permanent no contact. Am fed up dealing with liars and manipulators. My life is in shambles thanks to them. I do have my health and can rebuild.
Am very grateful to read the threads here!
Welcome to the club nobody wants to be in! But good for you for getting out.
"I do have my health and can rebuild"..... THIS is the main thing. You've been through an abusive situation and you need time to heal. Make yourself the number one priority.
And along the way, come here for support, to vent, whatever you need. Many of us "get it" and you are not alone.
Piper.....make yourself much less available to your mother or she'll usurp your entire LIFE and still complain it's Not Enough. Tell her you took a job from 9-5pm or whatever and can't be disturbed during those hours. It's what I've done for years. 🤣
MMasonSt......glad you're here and sorry you're here, both at the same time.
Shell...remember the Secrets. NMs need to show the world How Wonderful they are so the ugliness towards you is done privately, never in front of the Strangers. Helps with Gaslighting, too, just in case you ever try to Divulge A Secret. Then she can cry, Whaaaaat Me? I Am The Perfect Mother Just Ask These Boys I've Taken In Out Of The Goodness of my Heart, My Daughter Is A Dirty Liar.
Praying that her trial visit goes well!!
EP,
I totally understand! I think I have become hypersensitive to everything Mom says so I have started to shut it out. Kinda like the "Charlie Brown " adults.
Wah, wah, wa wah. Lol
Hang in there both of you!!
You're in good company here!!
The fact that you were able to go No Contact shows incredible strength!! It's an extremely difficult thing to do!
I look forward to seeing your insight in the future. I imagine that you have a lot experience to share!
Happy New Year!
No way will I take that bet!! Lol
You're spot on!!😂
I agree with you a 100%. My NM had to keep her good mother imagine. When we first started talking about NM, I came to realize that my NM was so wonderful all the times I was in & out of the hospital. My mother would be loving and attendive in front of the Drs and nurses, but as soon as we got home, I was on my own again!
I think the other reason my mother was nice to me when the older boy (K) was around because he was really smart, protective of me, and he would have told my dad. K and my dad were close, plus, my mother would never want K to think bad about her. To this day, he thinks the world of her and I just let him!
MMasonST, I am very sorry that you had to go through all that abuse--it really sucks!! Good for you for being strong enough and brave enough to walk away! Now it's time for you to take care of you!
Piper,
I hope that you do something extra nice for yourself today...you deserve it! Hugs!!!
I sent her a text with a video clip of the fireworks I took late NYE, when she was already home sleeping. I did this so I could check on her, and then forget about things the rest of the day. Her response was that the fireworks in PA are better than here. Whatever. Fine. I did my check in, she didn't fall, she's okay (for her). I didn't feel the need to text back.
Then an hour later she texts DH and tells him she wants to go to the grocery store with him. WTH? First of all I KNOW she doesn't need anything. Her fridge has tons of food, she eats here constantly, and we take her shopping constantly. More than she needs. It's like an outing now. He put her off until Monday, and she said "Fine".
I already invited her over for Football and food tomorrow, so I'm wondering what she will pull to get an invite for today too. And since I got a day "off" yesterday she will be expecting something today. I'm going to resist. I'm in no mood for her today.
I really need to have the hired companion talk with her, but not sure what to say because I know she will instantly get mad and accuse me of trying to push her off on other people. Well.... yeah I kind of do. So how do I respond? The truthful response of I need it for ME so I can have a little of my own life, separate from you, is not a rejection of you -- will never be understood or cared about with her.
You can't have a 'rational' discussion with the woman, she won't allow it. It's all about HER and what you aren't doing FOR her and blah blah. Which is why I strongly suggest you tell her you've gotten a JOB that goes from 9-5 pm daily (or whatever) and you can say you work from home if you'd like to, but that you CANNOT BE BOTHERED OR DISTURBED AT ALL during that time period. Therefore mother, let's get a paid companion for YOU so you don't have to be all alone like a dawg while I'm WORKING. You can arrange your 'work schedule' any way you'd like to accommodate YOU and YOUR needs, as long as the woman is trying her hardest to usurp YOUR life. Until and unless you can remove her from your property *which would be my #1 goal in life* then you HAVE to come up with some kind of SCHEDULE for yourself that she CANNOT disturb. Period.